Do LDS Believe A Premillenial Rapture Occurred Prior to the Great Apostasy?

[amgid]

JohnnyR:

The Catholic Church receives divine assitance (CCC892). For example the Trinity is an example of truth contained in divine revealtion (CCC88).

Your concept of “divine assistance” does not ring a scriptural bell with me; whereas everyone understands what revelation is, and what prophets and Apostles are. The ancient church was led by revelation from God, through prophets and Apostles. They wrote it down, and it became scripture. The LDS Church is led by revelation form God, through prophets and Apostles as in ancient times. They have written it down, and it became scripture. But the RCC does not have the power to receive and be directed by revelation form God, as the Church of God should be. That is what we mean by saying that the Christian church has apostatized. It does not mean that the Catholic Church is evil. On the contrary, the RCC has accomplished a lot of good in the world, and still continues to do. It has successfully defended true Christian doctrine against many heresies over the centuries, including the Protestant heresy. But the time has now finally arrived when the Lord has seen fit in His wisdom at this time to restore the true prophetic and Apostolic authority on earth through His restored Church, and that is the position we adhere to. If you are satisfied with your “divine assistance” (whatever that means, I am not sure) you are welcome to it. We will stick to our “revelation” through “prophets and Apostles”.

For more information see the following link:
comparing-views.com/book/c01.htm

I don’t follow links. If you have an argument, bring it along, and present your reasoning, and we will discuss them.

Magisterium is unheard of in the Bible, so is “three Gods” but yet Joseph Smith Clearly taught “three Gods”.

Magisterium is unheard of in the Bible, but three Gods is not.

The Catholic Church has the “more sure word of prophecy” (2Pet 1:19).

The “more sure word of prophecy” has always existed; but it does not mean that the Church no longer needs revelation from God.

The Catholic Church is “built” (Eph 2:20) on apostles and prohets.

It is not. If it was, it would have true prophets and Apostles, with power to lead and direct the Church by revelation. But it does not.

The LDS church does not have divine authority because it does not hold the “keys”,

The LDS Church has divine authority because it holds the “keys”.

the LDS church fabricated their keys.

The LDS Church did not fabricated the keys. You lost the keys through apostasy, therefore the Lord has restored them through the LDS Church.

Acts 3 is speaking of the restoration of all things that occurs after the Last Judgment.

Acts 3 is speaking of the restoration of all things that occurs before the last judgment, before the second coming of Christ—“Whom the heavens must receive, until …”

Rev 14:6 is not talking about a restoration but is speaking of the judgement that occurs immediately after Jesus is resurrected.

Rev 14:6 is not talking about a judgment at all, nor about the resurrection of Jesus. It is talking about the preaching of the gospel, revealed by an angelic ministrant, to all the inhabitants of the earth, prior to the second coming of the Lord.

Your words that the Catholic Church does not have authority from God and that the “keys” were lost are simply not support by scripture or by history.

They are supported both by scripture and by history.

The apostasy descibed in the Bible is an apostasy from the truth

That is true. The whole of the Christian world has apostatized from the truth.

and the restoration described in the Bible occurs after the Last Judgment instead of the time of Joseph Smtih.

The restoration takes place before the second coming of the Lord, at the time of Joseph Smith.

amgid

 

[amgid]

Tmaque:

I think that’s code for “I can’t present an effective argument so I would rather just ignore you”.

I think that’s code for “You can’t present an effective argument, therefore it is best disregarded”.

amgid

 

[majick275]

ahh mormon apologetics at their finest. Since the Bible tells us the mormon position is false then we really have nothing to discuss further. The truth is obvious, praise God for his holy, catholic and apostolic church.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

amgid:

I think that’s code for “You can’t present an effective argument, therefore it is best disregarded”.

amgid

And my questions are still being ignored by the LDS on this thread.
Robert in SD:

The latest inconsistency…

amgid:

The “apostolic keys” were lost to the church when the Apostles died Christian church apostatized.

If the the LDS Church is a restoration of the original Apostles’ authority - and that original authority was lost when the original Apostles died, then why weren’t the same apostolic keys lost to the restored church when the restored apostles passed away in the 1800s?

Stated another way - if the original Apostles could not pass down their authority to their successors as amgid now argues, then how could the “restored” apostles inherit a successive authority? If amgid’s argument above were consistently applied, then a “restoration” of the “restored” church would be required by God following the death of each generation of “restored” apostles.

LDS theology is such a moving target. As soon as I think I have their ideas pinned down, the doctrine morphs again. I guess that’s the nature of an open canon with continuing and contradictory revelations.

 

[JohnnyR]

amgid writes,
Clearly you do not understand the prophets described in the New Testament … In Acts 15 did the prophets led the church? … did the prophets led by revelation? Acts 15 describes divine assistance. The Catholic Church receives divine assistance. The Catholic Church has members who have the spiritual gift that allows them to “prophets”,“apostles”, “teachers” (1Cor 12:1,28). 1Cor 12 reveals that prophets are secondary.

Acts 15
[2] When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them, should go up to Jerusalem unto the apostles and elders about this question.
[6] And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
[7] And when there had been much disputing, Peter rose up, and said unto them, Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us, that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
[15] And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
[28] For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
[32] And Judas and Silas, being prophets also themselves, exhorted the brethren with many words, and confirmed them.

1Cor 12
[1] Now concerning spiritual gifts, brethren, I would not have you ignorant.
[28] And God hath set some in the church, first apostles, secondarily prophets, thirdly teachers, after that miracles, then gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues.

Again the LDS church has fabricated their “keys”, the Cathololic Church can prove their keys historically, can the LDS church prove their keys historically?

The restoration is not during Joseph Smith’s time. Acts 3 is after the last judgment. At that time the universe itself will be perfectly re-established in Christ [Acts 3:21; Eph 1:10; Col 1:20; 2 Pet 3:10-13]. It will be the definitive realization of God’s plan to bring under a single head “all things in [Christ], things in heaven and things on earth” [Eph 1:10].

Clearly Rev 14:16 is speaking about judgement, when did this “hour of his judgment” come?

Rev 14
[6] And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
[7] Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.

Where in the Bible does it reveal “three Gods” as you have indicated?
Clearly the Mormon Church has apostasied from the truth, the truth is that their is one God (Mark 12:29,32).

Mark 12
[29] And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:
[32] And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:

 

[amgid]

JohnnyR:

Clearly you do not understand the prophets described in the New Testament … In Acts 15 did the prophets led the church? …

The Apostles led the church, and the Apostles were also prophets.

did the prophets led by revelation?

Yes, prophets lead by revelation.

Acts 15 describes divine assistance.

Acts 15 describes revelation of the Holy Ghost.

The Catholic Church receives divine assistance.

Doesn’t mean much. Either it is revelation or it is not.

The Catholic Church has members who have the spiritual gift that allows them to “prophets”, “apostles”, “teachers” (1Cor 12:1,28).

Good luck to them if they do, but we have our doubts.

1Cor 12 reveals that prophets are secondary.

That is right, the office of Apostle is higher than that of prophet.

Again the LDS church has fabricated their “keys”,

You can repeat that a million times if you like; it won’t make it truer. I will simply repeat back to you a million times that the LDS Church received its “keys” from the Lord by angelic ministration and divine revelation, and they are true! I can type as fast as you can!

the Cathololic Church can prove their keys historically,

That historicity is invalid because the keys were lost to the church when the Apostles died.

can the LDS church prove their keys historically?

Yes they can. The keys were restored to Joseph Smith by angelic ministration, and he in turn passed it on to his successors.

The restoration is not during Joseph Smith’s time. Acts 3 is after the last judgment. At that time the universe itself will be perfectly re-established in Christ [Acts 3:21; Eph 1:10; Col 1:20; 2 Pet 3:10-13]. It will be the definitive realization of God’s plan to bring under a single head “all things in [Christ], things in heaven and things on earth” [Eph 1:10].

My reading is different. The restoration takes place before the second coming of the Lord.

Clearly Rev 14:16 is speaking about judgement, when did this “hour of his judgment” come?

Revelation 14:6 is not speaking of judgment. It is speaking of the restoration of the gospel by an angelic ministrant that should take place prior to the judgment, mentioned in verse 7. The purpose of the restoration is to call people to repentance before the judgment. The “judgment” occurs at an unspecified time after the restoration of the gospel:

Revelation 14:

6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,

7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
In scriptural language the concept of time often becomes distorted or squashed, giving the superficial reader a wrong impression. For example, Jesus often spoke of His second coming being very near (Matt. 16:28; 24:34), hence the early Christians thought it could happen in their own lifetime. But Paul and Peter wrote to them and informed them that that would not be the case (2 Thes. 2:1-3; 2 Peter 3:8-10).

Where in the Bible does it reveal “three Gods” as you have indicated?

You are trying to discuss an awful lot of stuff in one post, each of which requires a separate thread. You cannot be a serious debater, otherwise you would not bite off more than you can chew. But to be short in writing, the Bible teaches that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are three separate beings.

Clearly the Mormon Church has apostasied from the truth, the truth is that their is one God (Mark 12:29,32).

The Christian world has apostatized from the truth. The LDS Church teaches that there is one God.

amgid

 

[majick275]

really? because JS said:

"I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods." (Teachings of Prophet Joseph Smith p. 370).

of course he also taught:

“Hence, the doctrine of a plurality of Gods is as prominent in the Bible as any other doctrine. It is all over the face of the Bible . . . Paul says there are Gods many and Lords many . . . but to us there is but one God–that is pertaining to us; and he is in all and through all” (History of the Church, Vol. 6, page 474). “In the beginning, the head of the Gods called a council of the Gods; and they came together and concocted a plan to create the world and people it.” (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p. 5).

This in direct contradiction to the Bible teaching One God… ONLY…EVER!

 

[amgid]

majick275:

really? because JS said:

“I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods.” (Teachings of Prophet Joseph Smith p. 370).

of course he also taught:

“Hence, the doctrine of a plurality of Gods is as prominent in the Bible as any other doctrine. It is all over the face of the Bible . . . Paul says there are Gods many and Lords many . . . but to us there is but one God–that is pertaining to us; and he is in all and through all” (History of the Church, Vol. 6, page 474). “In the beginning, the head of the Gods called a council of the Gods; and they came together and concocted a plan to create the world and people it.” (Journal of Discourses, Vol. 6, p. 5).

Thank you for answering your own question.

This in direct contradiction to the Bible teaching One God… ONLY…EVER!

The Bible teaches plurality of gods.

amgid

 

[Robert_in_SD]

amgid;

Compare what you said here…

amgid:

The LDS Church teaches that there is one God.

with what you said here.

Amgid:

The Bible teaches plurality of gods.

So, what are you saying? The bible is incorrect? The LDS Church is incorrect? Neither is correct? Both are correct? Explain your comments, please.

 

[amgid]

Robert in SD:

So, what are you saying? The bible is incorrect? The LDS Church is incorrect? Neither is correct? Both are correct? Explain your comments, please.

Majick has already answered that question for me and for himself in the previous post.

amgid

 

[Robert_in_SD]

amgid:

Majick has already answered that question for me and for himself in the previous post.

amgid

No, he pointed out the inconsistency in your position with LDS teachings by JS, which you have yet to explain.

Why would you say that the bible teaches a plurality of gods and then state that the LDS church teaches there is one God (apparently in direct contradiction to the teachings of JS?)

 

[majick275]

no it does not. The bible is very clear that there is only one God:

*Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer, the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.*Isaiah 44:6,8

originally JS taught it:

And Zeezrom said unto him: Thou sayest there is a true and living God. And Amulek said: Yea, there is a true and living God. Now Zeezrom said: Is there more than one God? And he answered, No.
Alma 11:26-28

And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people. And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son — The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and the Son.
Mosiah 15:1-3

Teach them that redemption cometh through Christ the Lord, who is the very Eternal Father.
Mosiah 16:15

It was only later that JS began to stray from the truth about the trinity. The Lectures on faith which WERE canonized LDS scripture taught this heresy:

*There are two personages who constitute the great, matchless, governing and supreme power over all things — by whom all things were created and made . . . They are the Father and the Son: The Father being a personage of spirit, glory and power: possessing all perfection and fullness: The Son, who was in the bosom of the Father, a personage of tabernacle, made and fashioned like unto man.*Lecture 5

This is now denounced as false doctrine even by LDS. But they have still maintained a false doctrine of plurality of Gods by reverting back to yet another position of JS that there three Gods for us and many Gods for other worlds.(History of the Church, Vol. 6, p. 473-479)

I’m not sure that the LDS church has ever made up it’s mind in this as you still have in the “standard works” the book of Moses saying I, God and the Book of Abraham saying “The Gods” in the creation narrative. You also have the Bible, BoM and early parts of D&C claiming one God (D&C 20:28) opposed by the later D&C claiming plurality of Gods (D&C 121:32)

I believe in one God , The Father, The Son and the Holy Spirit.

 

[amgid]

Robert in SD:

No, he pointed out the inconsistency in your position with LDS teachings by JS, which you have yet to explain.

Why would you say that the bible teaches a plurality of gods and then state that the LDS church teaches there is one God (apparently in direct contradiction to the teachings

The second quote he gave from Joseph Smith answers his own question as well as yours.

amgid

 

[majick275]

I think it answers my question to my satisfaction. It tells me that JS was not only a false prophet who taught all manner of blasphemy but that the LDS church position keeps changing and remains undefined. The confusion allows the unwary to be deceived just as the Bible prophesied in 2 Peter.

 

[Robert_in_SD]

amgid:

The second quote he gave from Joseph Smith answers his own question as well as yours.

amgid

So you are apparently conceding the Bible is right and the LDS Church is wrong. I agree, but for different reasons.

 

[amgid]

Robert in SD:

I think it answers my question to my satisfaction. It tells me that JS was not only a false prophet who taught all manner of blasphemy but that the LDS church position keeps changing and remains undefined. The confusion allows the unwary to be deceived just as the Bible prophesied in 2 Peter.

I hadn’t expected anything different from you.

amgid

 

[amgid]

Robert in SD:

So you are apparently conceding the Bible is right and the LDS Church is wrong. I agree, but for different reasons.

That is called wishful thinking.

amgid

 

[Robert_in_SD]

Dear amgid;

You wrote…

amgid:

majick275:

**(but erroneously attributed to Robert in SD) **

I think it answers my question to my satisfaction. It tells me that JS was not only a false prophet who taught all manner of blasphemy but that the LDS church position keeps changing and remains undefined. The confusion allows the unwary to be deceived just as the Bible prophesied in 2 Peter.

I hadn’t expected anything different from you.

I did not write the post that you attribute to me. I think you meant to say that this was the kind of post you expected from Majick275?

I was being facetious in my earlier reply. Sometimes that kind of humor does not translate into writing as it would in a face-to-face discussion. My point is still the same… You made two apparently contradictory statements and now you are refusing to either (1) own up to it; or (2) explain why your statements are consistent.

 

[amgid]

Robert in SD:

Dear amgid;

You wrote…

I did not write the post that you attribute to me. I think you meant to say that this was the kind of post you expected from Majick275?

I was being facetious in my earlier reply. Sometimes that kind of humor does not translate into writing as it would in a face-to-face discussion. My point is still the same… You made two apparently contradictory statements and now you are refusing to either (1) own up to it; or (2) explain why your statements are consistent.

Yes, sorry, that was my mistake.

amgid

 

[majick275]

So the point is …? That I’m consistent?