Do LDS hold to "Sola Fide" or "Tradition Plus Scripture"

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Robert_in_SD

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Hello all;

In another thread discussing whether or not Jesus was married, I noticed a very general pattern developing among our LDS friends. This is my comment…
Robert in SD:
This is just an aside … and perhaps it is a good topic for another thread… But there seem to be two different kinds of LDS believers (and this is a very general statement). (1) There are “sola scriptura” LDS believers who take the position that if it’s not in the doctrinal writings - i.e. Bible, BoM, D&C, PoGP - then it’s not to be believed; and (2) those who accept not just the written doctrine but accept, as binding, the statements of the various prophets even where there are not express written doctrinal statements supporting those statements. The present topic - matrimony of Jesus - seems to be a good example of where some LDS say NO WAY while others seem to take the prophets’ statements to the contrary as binding on the faithful. Perhaps the LDS who come from a protestant background are more SS while those from other religions, like Catholicism, are more willing to submit to the teaching authority of the Prophets even where their statements exceed the doctrinal writings of the LDS church.
I would love to hear (name removed by moderator)ut from you all on this. To put it succinctly, do LDS members believe in a form of Sola Scriptura, in which the written doctrines alone are what is binding, or is there a form of Scripture Plus Tradition in which the writings of the Prophets and other LDS Church bodies forms part of the doctrine?
 
Robert in SD:
Hello all;

In another thread discussing whether or not Jesus was married, I noticed a very general pattern developing among our LDS friends. This is my comment…

I would love to hear (name removed by moderator)ut from you all on this. To put it succinctly, do LDS members believe in a form of Sola Scriptura, in which the written doctrines alone are what is binding, or is there a form of Scripture Plus Tradition in which the writings of the Prophets and other LDS Church bodies forms part of the doctrine?
I associate with LDS more than I do with members of any other faith. This is due to the fact that I live in Utah, I come from a family of 11(most of my siblings are very active LDS), my best friend is LDS(we’ve been best friends since childhood), and my wife and I socialize with several LDS families in my neighborhood in Murray. I can say with certainty that almost all of them hold to beliefs that go beyond the LDS canon. They definitely fall into the “scripture plus traditon” category. Maybe this is unique to Utah LDS, I don’t know.
 
The difference you noticed is less real in the “absolute” sense of there being two or more different “camps” of believers.

The difference simply derives from two source pressures:

1.) Expediency
2.) Personal Preference

As such, any given lds apologist will resort to either of the proposed lines of thought as is expedient to do so, and as they are personally capable and willing of supporting through effort. This is especially seen in the example of the debates that include the Infallibility principle.

For a specific example, AMGID ‘preferrs’ the Sola Scriptura route, but regularly steps outside this position in order to escape the limits of such a position. Mormon Fool, in general, takes the opposite tact, while still trying to maintain a superiority of scripture that he cannot truly embrace (as by mormon doctrinal standards, the living prophet must superceed the dead ones, and therefore scriptures have to be #2, yet there are other doctrines which contradict even this, suggesting that the SW must trump the current prophet…sigh).

Basically, it all comes down to expediency rather than philosophy or rationality; whatever pov gets them the ‘point’. More Ends justifying the Means as taught them by Smith.
 
How about adding third category? Those that “believe” much of what church leaders have speculated upon (but not necessarily all of it) and yet distinguish between canonized doctrine and those things that God has chosen not to reveal but may be fun to speculate, ponder upon and discuss.

For example, I personally believe that Jesus was probably married and have a theory about it but at the same time I recognize that it is not official LDS doctrine and if God ever chooses to issue a revelation to clarify the issue I’d be willing to change my opinion on it. I suspect that many LDS fall into this category. For LDS a prophet may receive a revelation from God that is considered doctrine but a prophet may also express his personal opinion in areas that have not been revealed. But for some reason non LDS tend to have a hard time understanding the concept that seems so simple to me.
 
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Casen:
For LDS a prophet may receive a revelation from God that is considered doctrine but a prophet may also express his personal opinion in areas that have not been revealed. But for some reason non LDS tend to have a hard time understanding the concept that seems so simple to me.
The problem comes when LDS believe wholeheartedly what the prophet believes while other LDS say “oh that was never taught” or something to that effect.
 
and yet distinguish between canonized doctrine and those things that God has chosen not to reveal but may be fun to speculate, ponder upon and discuss.
This is no distinguished category that relates in a meaningful manner to what is being pointed out and discussed here. What you are proposing is a universal thing; every member of every faith speculates to some degree about some facet of doctrine or another. This principle is too universal (or perhaps ‘general’) to be an object of discussion.
But for some reason non LDS tend to have a hard time understanding the concept that seems so simple to me.
Hmm. A rather weak (of not outright contentious) generalization for your stated sensibilities, yes? No, no one misunderstands the concept you are trying to add, even all those “dumb” non-mormons. It simply does not apply to the discussion at hand. Your point does not answer or even really address the topic at hand.

What you are trying to do here is eliminate the difference, wholly recognized by your religion, between any given mormon’s speculation; and those doctrines **taught, proclaimed, and ** (through the preisthood) enforced by your prophets as an ecclesiastical authority who is empowered to make new doctrine.

As you should be able to see, this does not answer the question, nor even actually address the topic in a substantive manner, but, rather, is a wholly separate discussion altogether. Just another herring in the final analysis, as even in the refutation of your point as it relates to the current topic cannot be said to actually substantively develop the topic meaningfully.
 
Despite the “practice” many LDS have of retreating into Sola Scriptura when faced with controversial statements by their leaders past AND present it simply isn’t possible to be true LDS without going well beyond the standard works.

The D&C makes it very clear that everything the “brethren” say when moved upon by the Holy Ghost is the Word of the Lord.

To be a “complete” LDS you must be sealed in the Temple. (obviously requiring a Temple recomend) This requires one to faithfully adhere to practices that aren’t clearly defined in the standard works but that ARE defined in a binding way outside of the scriptures. The Temple Ceremony itself is NOT contained in the standard works. (unlike the other priesthood ordinances which are spelled out in great detail in LDS scripture)

There is also the problem of sola scriptura with an open canon. One cannot change the canon without going outside of it. LDS have many examples of canonized scripture being changed drastically to the point of actually reversing doctrines in some cases. What was scripture at one time is not at another.

This brings us to the easily recognizable FACT that LDS doctrine (both what is taught AND what is practiced) is a combination of scripture AND tradition with added complication that BOTH are subject to change at any time.

Thus in a very literal sense LDS doctrine is whatever the sitting prophet says it is.
 
Sorry if I offended BJRumph. I was just trying to point out that the original two categories Robert used (“sola scriptura” vs. “ALL prophetic utterances are binding”) are not the only two possibilities.
 
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tkdnick:
The problem comes when LDS believe wholeheartedly what the prophet believes while other LDS say “oh that was never taught” or something to that effect.
Yes, that does happen sometimes. But I think it’s usually ignorance rather than an attempt to deceive.
 
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Casen:
Yes, that does happen sometimes. But I think it’s usually ignorance rather than an attempt to deceive.
I’m not implying that it’s an attempt to deceive. But it’s really hard for us non-LDS to understand LDS beliefs when we’re told two completely opposite things about LDS teaching from different people. I think that may be the reason some people believe LDS intentionally deceive.
 
This is a complicated issue. LDS are taught by laypeople, led in normal church services and activities by lay people and sometimes don’t receive clearly defined teachings as a result.

I think many LDS (like many Catholics) truly don’t know about alot of doctrine. I think some are honest when they say “I was never taught that”.

True LDS doctrine is in and of itself difficult to define to begin with. I’ve seen many a spirited discussion in LDS sunday school classes over what is “true”.

I tend to be a liitle skeptical on these boards though because there ARE some folks of ALL religions who misrepresent things for their own preception of the “greater good”. (winning converts, etc.)
 
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arieh0310:
it is hard to hit a moving target
Keep in mind that Catholic doctrine has had centuries to develop and LDS doctrine has had a comparatively short time. Early church leaders received revelation and clarification from God “line upon line” and were corrected from time to time as needed.
 
OOPS. I notice in the title of this thread I used the term “Sola Fide” when I meant Sola Scriptura. Sorry for any confusion. :o
 
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tkdnick:
I’m not implying that it’s an attempt to deceive. But it’s really hard for us non-LDS to understand LDS beliefs when we’re told two completely opposite things about LDS teaching from different people. I think that may be the reason some people believe LDS intentionally deceive.
I think you put your finger on it tdnick. I get conflicting statements with conflicting standards. It seems to me that the way to clarify with an LDS is whether one of their particular beliefs is one that they’re free to speculate about, or whether it is a believe that is binding on all the LDS faithful.

For example, it appears that LDS are free to believe or not believe in a married Jesus with children.

It appears that this is also the case with some of the more colorful aspects of exaltation (or eternal progression). It seems one may believe in the literal “I get my own planet if I’m a good LDS” version or believe something less literal, because what is actually binding on the LDS believer is more of a generalized concept of one becoming an exalted man or woman.
 
This is a pretty interesting topic. This is something I’ve been trying to understand for a long time, and I’m LDS. I served a mission, and I still don’t get exactly how this works, but I have thought about it enough to maybe shed some light on it.
  1. I have met many LDS who express what to me are out-of-the-ordinary doctrines. Now, maybe they’re right. Maybe they know more than me about something. So I don’t argue. If it’s something controversial being taught to investigators, for example, and I see the need, I clarify the official Church teaching, especially clarifying what’s in the scriptures and what’s globally accepted by the modern Church leaders and members.
Now, sometimes someone says something controversial that I simply do not agree with and happen to know to be wrong, according to the two sources I stated above. If I see that a response is necessary and I have the “authority” to do so (meaning maybe a social authority – I’m not going to shout out during someone’s talk that they’re wrong) then I address the false doctrine. So it definitely comes down to necessity.
  1. There are basic underlying doctrines clearly presented in the scriptures and over the years by general authorities that are not often misrepresented, such as that God loves us. Simple and non-arguable. You see, I don’t really think that one person’s idea of doctrine is always the same as another’s. This falls into the same category you mention, so there’s a bit of iteration, which makes more complex LDS doctrine possibly more difficult to grasp.
I have heard it said, “Whatever the prophet says is truth.” I think that that’s mostly ignorance, that they haven’t considered that prophets can make mistakes and have opinions, and certainly haven’t read much of Brigham Young and other early Church leaders. Then, some say that anything in the scriptures plus what’s said in General Conference is doctrine. That may or may not be true… Then some say “just the scriptures, everything else is conjecture.” I don’t quite agree with that, but some think it. Then some say that anything published by the Church with a “Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints” stamp on the back is scripture and doctrine.

You see, there is no official doctrine to indicate what falls under the category of what official doctrine is. That’s why there’s confusion about this and many other topics, in my opinion.

There are definitely things we believe as a whole Church that are not found in the scriptures or probably even in General Conference talks. You can always be safe with a clear, unarguable interpretation of the Standard Works, that is the most basic doctrine you can find.

So, as you talk to LDS you need to remember that in order to understand that as they talk doctrine to you you should probably have a very good handling on Mormon doctrine in order to assess that person’s statement.

Now, there is one source besides the scriptures that is 100% fool-proof, and that is the Holy Ghost. Nephi talks about him alot in the last chapters of 2 Nephi. The “problem” with this method is that it’s personal to each individual and they can’t make anyone else recognize or acknowledge it. So in the truest sense, high spiritual understanding, or in other words, LDS doctrine, can’t come entirely from the written word or the mysteries of Godliness would suddenly no longer be mysteries for us to delve deeper into, and God wants us to do that.

(Many Catholics may think similarly about the preceeding paragraph in relation to the RCC.)

I actually think that all truth is contained in the scriptures, or at least all the necessary truth that if we act on will lead us into all truth, and that connection can only come by the Holy Ghost. I don’t think we should be entitled to everything in writing. As mentioned, we are given line upon line, precept upon precept, here a little and there a little, until the perfect day, and I think the history of the Bible shows that pretty clearly. We don’t get it all at once, but one step at a time, and we can even misinterpret everything if we really want to, so having everything might not even help in the long run.

So, use your good judgment. What I have written here is not official LDS doctrine, although my reasoning is logical and Nephi supports me in some of it, plus your own experience supports part of it also. Now, just because certain leaders didn’t provide a waiver like this one here doesn’t make their statements absolute doctrine. This is a long-winded reply, but hopefully it can help you understand this nuance a little better.

Note: This can actually be a very sensitive topic to some, as I have learned, as it is defifitely controversial and definitely not defined clearly.
 
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majick275:
Despite the “practice” many LDS have of retreating into Sola Scriptura when faced with controversial statements by their leaders …
Please do continue with your dialogue of the deaf. I find it quite amusing.

You certainly have a very low estimate of the intelligence of the people on these boards.

amgid
 
Robert in SD:
I would love to hear (name removed by moderator)ut from you all on this. To put it succinctly, do LDS members believe in a form of Sola Scriptura, in which the written doctrines alone are what is binding, or is there a form of Scripture Plus Tradition in which the writings of the Prophets and other LDS Church bodies forms part of the doctrine?
The following quotes from past LDS authorities I believe answer your question. I think that they are self-explanatory; but if any parts of them are unclear, please let me know, and I will try to clarify it further.

“It makes no difference what is written or what anyone has said, if what has been said is in conflict with what the Lord has revealed, we can set it aside. My words, and the teachings of any other member of the Church, high or low, if they do not square with the revelations, we need not accept them. Let us have this matter clear. We have accepted the four standard works as the measuring yardsticks, or balances, by which we measure every man’s doctrine. You cannot accept the books written by the authorities of the Church as standards in doctrine, only in so far as they accord with the revealed word in the standard works.” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation)

“If anyone, regardless of his position in the Church, were to advance a doctrine that is not substantiated by the standard Church works, meaning the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price, you may know that his statement is merely his private opinion. The only one authorized to bring forth any new doctrine is the President of the Church, who, when he does, will declare it as revelation from God, and it will be so accepted by the Council of the Twelve and sustained by the body of the Church. And if any man speak a doctrine which contradicts what is in the standard Church works, you may know by that same token that it is false and you are not bound to accept it as truth.” (Harold B. Lee, European Area Conference of the Church, Munich, Germany, 1973)

“If it is not in the standard work, we may well assume that it is speculation, man’s own personal opinion; and if it contradicts what is in the scripture, it is not true. This is the standard by which we measure all truth.” (Harold B. Lee, 11th President, Improvement Era, January 1969 p.13)
D&C 33:

16 And the Book of Mormon and the holy scriptures are given of me for your instruction; and the power of my Spirit quickeneth all things.

D&C 42:

12 And again, the elders, priests and teachers of this church shall teach the principles of my gospel, which are in the Bible and the Book of Mormon, in the which is the fulness of the gospel.

D&C 42:

59 Thou shalt take the things which thou hast received, which have been given unto thee in my scriptures {i.e. standard works} for a law {i.e. understood in its widest sense, includes doctrine}, to be my law {and doctrine} to govern my church;
amgid
 
Notice here that this states clearly that the LDS prophet may change doctrines as long it is in the form of a revelation.
 
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amgid:
The following quotes from past LDS authorities I believe answer your question. I think that they are self-explanatory; but if any parts of them are unclear, please let me know, and I will try to clarify it further.

“It makes no difference what is written or what anyone has said, if what has been said is in conflict with what the Lord has revealed, we can set it aside. My words, and the teachings of any other member of the Church, high or low, if they do not square with the revelations, we need not accept them. Let us have this matter clear. We have accepted the four standard works as the measuring yardsticks, or balances, by which we measure every man’s doctrine. You cannot accept the books written by the authorities of the Church as standards in doctrine, only in so far as they accord with the revealed word in the standard works.” (Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation)

“If anyone, regardless of his position in the Church, were to advance a doctrine that is not substantiated by the standard Church works, meaning the Bible, the Book of Mormon, the Doctrine and Covenants, and the Pearl of Great Price, you may know that his statement is merely his private opinion. The only one authorized to bring forth any new doctrine is the President of the Church, who, when he does, will declare it as revelation from God, and it will be so accepted by the Council of the Twelve and sustained by the body of the Church. And if any man speak a doctrine which contradicts what is in the standard Church works, you may know by that same token that it is false and you are not bound to accept it as truth.” (Harold B. Lee, European Area Conference of the Church, Munich, Germany, 1973)

“If it is not in the standard work, we may well assume that it is speculation, man’s own personal opinion; and if it contradicts what is in the scripture, it is not true. This is the standard by which we measure all truth.” (Harold B. Lee, 11th President, Improvement Era, January 1969 p.13)
D&C 33:

16 And the Book of Mormon and the holy scriptures are given of me for your instruction; and the power of my Spirit quickeneth all things.

D&C 42:

12 And again, the elders, priests and teachers of this church shall teach the principles of my gospel, which are in the Bible and the Book of Mormon, in the which is the fulness of the gospel.

D&C 42:

59 Thou shalt take the things which thou hast received, which have been given unto thee in my scriptures {i.e. standard works} for a law {i.e. understood in its widest sense, includes doctrine}, to be my law {and doctrine} to govern my church;
amgid
Thanks amgid, but these quotes seem to beg the question; are LDS bound to believe just the written doctrines (i.e.scriptures), or is it scripture plus divine revelation?

And If the latter is the case, which seems to be the implication from the quotes you cite, then how is “divine revelation” defined by LDS? To some, it seems limited to specific formal dogmatic statements made by the current prophet only, while to others it would include all the teachings of the past prophets as well - to the extent they have not been overridden by latter contrary statements, as in the case of polygamy for example.

And, what about the statements made by prophets under less clear or less formal circumstances? Are LDS free to dismiss them as “personal opinion” only, or are LDS compelled to consider them as something between dogma and opinion that should not be so easily dismissed. For example, what would happen if your current prophet - when speaking at an LDS event or occasion - makes a specific remark that he received a revelation that all LDS members must accept the perpetual virginity of the Mother of God? How would a member determine whether this was a binding statement, or just personal opinion, and if it were personal opinion, wouldn’t it be at least VERY compelling, as would an encyclical prepared by the pope?

After all, LDS believe - like Catholics - that their leader is Christ’s representative here on earth. So where do you draw the doctrinal line?

Bottom line - It just seems to me that the rules for defining the dogmatic implications of ongoing revelation need some more “fleshing out” so to speak.
 
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