Do LDS openly acknowledge that their religion teaches the belief of multiple gods?

[why_me]

I can’t. You were caught lying again. You have to lie to bash the Catholic Church, very sad.

Nice try. I do hate fish. But I could live with tuna with a lot of mayo and now that I remember more clearly, my mom would put chopped onion in it. And fish and chips scottish style does not have a fish taste. The reason why I hate fish is because of the fish taste.

You and your friends have called me a liar so many times, I am immune to it. I am just glad that you guys and women are not in my parish.

I don’t think that you know what a liar is. A liar is not someone who makes a statement and then changes it a little when his or her memory becomes clearer. A liar is someone who willfully chooses to tell an untruth. But nice try…with your judgementalisms.

 

[why_me]

Case is not closed at all. I think you will find more disagreements among your own peers and historians if you choose to study intently and sincerely. Your examples are all folklore and stories garnished up shortly after nominating BY. There was not a miracle as you suggest at the meeting.

Okay Rocket, if you say so. Thank you for your advice to study intently and sincerely. I will now disbelieve all the accounts of what happened as folklore and stories. But I will accept all the miracles that catholics claim as fact and not folklore. For example, the stream near the grotto with Bernedette. That is not folklore but fact. Right? But the mormon claims on paper about the succession of BY is all folklore? Right? Thank you Rocket.

 

[Rocket_Man]

Do you think that Paul was perfect? Do you think that the original twelve apostles were perfect? I hardly think that they were perfect. They weren’t perfect when Christ lived and they were far from perfect after His death that is for sure.

Paul was a sinner like you and I and struggled with the same sins we all do. So in that sense he was not perfect as I stated over and over. Mormon prophets also deal with the same sinful desires as you and I and they are not perfect.

But, why you choose to demote those like Paul, who were chosen by God as His mouthpiece, whom forsaked all to minister the gospel to the unbelievers, whom taught no doctrinal error, while trying to elevate your own prophets is pathetic.

 

[why_me]

.

But, why you choose to demote those like Paul, who were chosen by God as His mouthpiece, whom forsaked all to minister the gospel to the unbelievers, whom taught no doctrinal error, while trying to elevate your own prophets is pathetic.

We have no idea about Paul’s life after his conversion. We have no idea what he taught or didn’t teach. If all he did is in the bible, he didn’t do much. But I am sure that the said much more than what we have him saying. Every day he talked with people and preached. No records of what he said though. What we do have is a short image of his life that is contained within a handful of Epistles.

I am sure that he said some humdingers though.

 

[Rocket_Man]

We have no idea about Paul’s life after his conversion. We have no idea what he taught or didn’t teach. If all he did is in the bible, he didn’t do much. But I am sure that the said much more than what we have him saying. Every day he talked with people and preached. No records of what he said though. What we do have is a short image of his life that is contained within a handful of Epistles.
I am sure that he said some humdingers though.

Maybe you could degrade him even more if you found that he was teaching and practicing polyandry like Joseph Smith. Son, you need to find a way to fight your own inner turmoil on these issues without tearing apart God’s elect.

 

[dianaiad]

[SIGN][/SIGN]

Yes I do like the teaching I have handed down by People I not only like I love em. Like Jesus, Peter, the Early Fathers of the Church and the Pope.

But how do you know how much I study my faith everyday. How do you know that reading the gospel every day and studying the teachings of the Church are not work. They are to me. Its alot of work to me. You call me an anti whatever. I guess if it makes you better to call me names go ahead. Sticks and stones.

Rinnie, this isn’t about what you believe, is it? Look at the title of the thread. Look at your posts. This is about what I believe. So I don’t have a clue how much you study YOUR faith everyday, or even what your beliefs actually are. You haven’t told me. All I know is how much you don’t know about MY beliefs–and that your opinion of them is obviously gleaned from some very suspect and strange sources.

…and yes, since you go there and take those opinions ‘canned’ from other people rather than doing your own research by asking actual Mormons, then yes, you are being lazy. You should spend that time studying YOUR faith, because what you are doing in regard to mine isn’t getting you anywhere at all. It’s not advancing your understanding of your own faith, and it sure isn’t educating you about mine.

As to ‘calling [you] names,’…you mean you aren’t proud to be an anti-Mormon? Have you thought about why you think being referred to in that manner is an insult? (true, when I call someone that, it is…but then I have some very specific qualifications that must be met in order to achieve ‘anti’ status.)

 

[dianaiad]

The prophet is, in LDS view, God’s spokesperson.

Only when he is speaking as such, Rocket Man.

We could spend countless hours debating de facto prophetic “infallibility” whether and in what ways the prophet had “lead your followers stray,” the parameters for prophets having their own “opinions,” in what contexts prophets are or are not “acting as such,” etc. etc. etc.

We could…and the resulting decision would be…since it is the Mormons who think these men are prophets, it’s the Mormons who get to decide when, and where, they speak as such. Certainly the prophets themselves get to have some say in it. In the end, the people who have the LEAST say about when and where prophets speak as prophets are those who don’t believe that they are prophets at any time.

You, in other words, don’t get to tell me when our leaders are being prophets and when they are not. I get to tell you. Just as we don’t get to tell you when a Pope is being infallible; Catholics get to tell us.

 

[Rocket_Man]

Only when he is speaking as such, Rocket Man.
You, in other words, don’t get to tell me when our leaders are being prophets and when they are not. I get to tell you.

I’m all ears! Let errr rip.

 

[dianaiad]

I’m all ears! Let errr rip.

I did. You were not paying attention.

 

[chris2009]

Christians believe in only one God and that He is the only God that exists.

Can it be summed up that Mormons believe in multiple Gods existing while they only worship the one god that they believe created our world? So, while they worship only one god - they believe in multiple ones?

The main reason I am asking is that I am confused as to how the LDS reconcile all of the mentioning in the Old and New Testaments of their only being one God with the teachings of Joesph Smith.

I know a young man who is about to go on his LDS mission trip in the near future and he couldn’t really answer this for me. (He says he hasn’t taken all the classes yet.)

Thank you and please keep it polite.

I appreciate your question would be happy to answer it. My question to you is how can you NOT believe in more than one God considering the teachings of the Bible. The Catholic teachings of God today mainly rely on Greek Philosophy (Aristotle,etc) and try to apply that to the Bible somehow. Yes, Mormons believe in multiple Gods existing while they only worship one God, God the Father.

The Apostle Paul taught this, “5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.” (1 Cor 8:5-6)

So Paul teaches that although there are many gods and lords, God the Father is our only god. We pray to Him and worship Him.

It is interesting to me because the Catholics believe in God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost. There are three gods right here. To me it is very confusing how you try to justify that there are three distinct personages and yet they are of “one” substance. This was a big arguement for you in 325 AD during which the Nicene Creed was formed by majority vote. Yes, the very nature of God was determined by the majority of bishops under the direction of Emporer Constantine in 325 AD – not by revelation from a prophet of God, but by majority vote.

From the very beginning of the Bible we start with a plurality of gods.

“26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.” (Genesis 1:26-27)

In Genesis 1 God is speaking, but he uses the pronouns “us” and “our”. Who is God talking to? Is He just talking to Himself? Perhaps he’s just floating around an empty universe for an eternity talking to Himself. No, God the Father spoke to His Son Jesus Christ (also a god) and Jesus Christ created the earth. Reread the entire chapter and you’ll hear the echo. God commanded, then God obeyed and created, etc… over and over.

The Hebrew word for God is “Elohim”. “im” is the plural in Hebrew, therefore Elohim should be “gods”.

The Bible teaches that God is a “God of gods”. Who are the gods He is God over?

“For the Lord your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:” (Deut 10:17)

“The Lord God of gods, the Lord God of gods, he knoweth, and Israel he shall know; if it be in rebellion, or if in transgression against the Lord, (save us not this day,)” (Josh 22:22)

Many today feel as the Pharasees and scribes did regarding this issue – Blasphemy! Jesus Christ tried to teach this principal to those who would listen by calling himself a god and was almost stoned for it.

"29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.
30 I and my Father are one.
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? " (John 10:29-36)

The Jews tried to stone Jesus for calling Himself a god. Then Jesus said isn’t it written in your own law that I said “Ye are gods?” Jesus did say that in their law.

See Psalms 82:1,6 "1 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods. " “6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.”

Yes, we are literally children of Heavenly Father and therefore are gods. We are baby gods or gods in embryo. Is this so hard to accept and understand? It is the purest doctrine. We are children of God. But the scribes and Pharasees were offended by it when the Savior taught it.

 

[TheosisM]

The Apostle Paul taught this, “5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.” (1 Cor 8:5-6)

So Paul teaches that although there are many gods and lords, God the Father is our only god. We pray to Him and worship Him.

Who is Paul referring to in verse 5? The answer comes in the verses before it:

*1Now as touching things offered unto idols, we know that we all have knowledge. Knowledge puffeth up, but charity edifieth.
2And if any man think that he knoweth any thing, he knoweth nothing yet as he ought to know.
3But if any man love God, the same is known of him.
4As concerning therefore the eating of those things that are offered in sacrifice unto idols, we know that an idol is nothing in the world, and that there is none other God but one.
*

Paul is talking about idolatry, false gods. These verses say nothing about the existence of other gods besides the one and only God. There is none other God but one.

It is interesting to me because the Catholics believe in God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost. There are three gods right here. To me it is very confusing how you try to justify that there are three distinct personages and yet they are of “one” substance. This was a big arguement for you in 325 AD during which the Nicene Creed was formed by majority vote. Yes, the very nature of God was determined by the majority of bishops under the direction of Emporer Constantine in 325 AD – not by revelation from a prophet of God, but by majority vote.

Please understand the purposes of Ecumenical Councils, specifically the Council of Nicaea. I’m sure you know that we’ve seen the above statements many times. Also, many people make the Trinity more complicated than it is. The issue comes when people don’t try to define what “one substance” means, so they make caricatures of the Trinity that are simply not true. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three distinct Persons, yet they are of the same (one) divine essence.

From the very beginning of the Bible we start with a plurality of gods.

“26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.” (Genesis 1:26-27)

In Genesis 1 God is speaking, but he uses the pronouns “us” and “our”. Who is God talking to? Is He just talking to Himself? Perhaps he’s just floating around an empty universe for an eternity talking to Himself. No, God the Father spoke to His Son Jesus Christ (also a god) and Jesus Christ created the earth. Reread the entire chapter and you’ll hear the echo. God commanded, then God obeyed and created, etc… over and over.

The Hebrew word for God is “Elohim”. “im” is the plural in Hebrew, therefore Elohim should be “gods”.

None of this is an issue for Trinitarians. Again, we believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct Persons. Obviously the Father was not talking to Himself, nor was Jesus Christ praying to Himself. Using “us” and “our” certainly was appropriate since there is a plurality in the Trinity.

The Bible teaches that God is a “God of gods”. Who are the gods He is God over?

“For the Lord your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:” (Deut 10:17)

“The Lord God of gods, the Lord God of gods, he knoweth, and Israel he shall know; if it be in rebellion, or if in transgression against the Lord, (save us not this day,)” (Josh 22:22)

None of this is an issue. The Bible uses this sort of language to emphasize the greatness of God. Throughout the Old Testament we also read about the various false gods that were worshipped, and how this contrasted with the one, true God. Contextually, it makes sense to say that God is “God of gods”, without implying that there are other deities in existence.

 

[TheosisM]

The Jews tried to stone Jesus for calling Himself a god. Then Jesus said isn’t it written in your own law that I said “Ye are gods?” Jesus did say that in their law.

See Psalms 82:1,6 "1 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods. " “6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.”

Yes, we are literally children of Heavenly Father and therefore are gods. We are baby gods or gods in embryo. Is this so hard to accept and understand? It is the purest doctrine. We are children of God. But the scribes and Pharasees were offended by it when the Savior taught it.

There are multiple interpretations of Psalm 82, including this “divine council” interpretation, as well as the “judges” interpretation. I can see some validity in the judges interpretation, since the Psalm talks about how these “gods” “judge unjustly”, “accept the persons of the wicked”, etc., and that they should “defend the poor and fatherless”, etc, and that it goes with Psalm 58.

However, I also can see it as supporting deification, also known as theosis in orthodox Christianity. The Bible shows us that we become children of God through adoption, and are not divine by nature. This goes back to the “substance” issue of the Trinity, and that deification is a partaking in the divine substance/nature of God. We are offspring of God as He is our creator, and we are created in his image and likeness, however partaking of the divine nature, deification, can only happen through adoption, and we are not divine by nature.

 

[Rocket_Man]

I appreciate your question would be happy to answer it. My question to you is how can you NOT believe in more than one God considering the teachings of the Bible. The Catholic teachings of God today mainly rely on Greek Philosophy (Aristotle,etc) and try to apply that to the Bible somehow. Yes, Mormons believe in multiple Gods existing while they only worship one God, God the Father.

The Apostle Paul taught this, “5 For though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, (as there be gods many, and lords many,)
6 But to us there is but one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we in him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we by him.” (1 Cor 8:5-6)

So Paul teaches that although there are many gods and lords, God the Father is our only god. We pray to Him and worship Him.

It is interesting to me because the Catholics believe in God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Ghost. There are three gods right here. To me it is very confusing how you try to justify that there are three distinct personages and yet they are of “one” substance. This was a big arguement for you in 325 AD during which the Nicene Creed was formed by majority vote. Yes, the very nature of God was determined by the majority of bishops under the direction of Emporer Constantine in 325 AD – not by revelation from a prophet of God, but by majority vote.

From the very beginning of the Bible we start with a plurality of gods.

“26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.” (Genesis 1:26-27)

In Genesis 1 God is speaking, but he uses the pronouns “us” and “our”. Who is God talking to? Is He just talking to Himself? Perhaps he’s just floating around an empty universe for an eternity talking to Himself. No, God the Father spoke to His Son Jesus Christ (also a god) and Jesus Christ created the earth. Reread the entire chapter and you’ll hear the echo. God commanded, then God obeyed and created, etc… over and over.

The Hebrew word for God is “Elohim”. “im” is the plural in Hebrew, therefore Elohim should be “gods”.

The Bible teaches that God is a “God of gods”. Who are the gods He is God over?

“For the Lord your God is God of gods, and Lord of lords, a great God, a mighty, and a terrible, which regardeth not persons, nor taketh reward:” (Deut 10:17)

“The Lord God of gods, the Lord God of gods, he knoweth, and Israel he shall know; if it be in rebellion, or if in transgression against the Lord, (save us not this day,)” (Josh 22:22)

Many today feel as the Pharasees and scribes did regarding this issue – Blasphemy! Jesus Christ tried to teach this principal to those who would listen by calling himself a god and was almost stoned for it.

"29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father’s hand.
30 I and my Father are one.
31 Then the Jews took up stones again to stone him.
32 Jesus answered them, Many good works have I shewed you from my Father; for which of those works do ye stone me?
33 The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God.
34 Jesus answered them, Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?
35 If he called them gods, unto whom the word of God came, and the scripture cannot be broken;
36 Say ye of him, whom the Father hath sanctified, and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God? " (John 10:29-36)

The Jews tried to stone Jesus for calling Himself a god. Then Jesus said isn’t it written in your own law that I said “Ye are gods?” Jesus did say that in their law.

See Psalms 82:1,6 "1 God standeth in the congregation of the mighty; he judgeth among the gods. " “6 I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High.”

Yes, we are literally children of Heavenly Father and therefore are gods. We are baby gods or gods in embryo. Is this so hard to accept and understand? It is the purest doctrine. We are children of God. But the scribes and Pharasees were offended by it when the Savior taught it.

 

[chris2009]

There are multiple interpretations of Psalm 82, including this “divine council” interpretation, as well as the “judges” interpretation. I can see some validity in the judges interpretation, since the Psalm talks about how these “gods” “judge unjustly”, “accept the persons of the wicked”, etc., and that they should “defend the poor and fatherless”, etc, and that it goes with Psalm 58.

The Hebrew word Elohim is used 2618 times in the Old Testiment. All instances are translated as God or gods with rare exception.

There are 4 times it is translated as “judges”. Ex 21:6;22:8-9 (God’s representative is probably the intended meaning)

There is one time it is translated as “angels” Ps 8:5
The actual translation here should be “For thou hast made him a little lower than the [Elohim or Gods] , and hast crowned him with glory and honour.” The reason it was translated as “angels” and not “gods” was because of Heb 2:7 “Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands” The Greek “aggelos” or angels is used here.

However, I also can see it as supporting deification, also known as theosis in orthodox Christianity. The Bible shows us that we become children of God through adoption, and are not divine by nature. This goes back to the “substance” issue of the Trinity, and that deification is a partaking in the divine substance/nature of God. We are offspring of God as He is our creator, and we are created in his image and likeness, however partaking of the divine nature, deification, can only happen through adoption, and we are not divine by nature.

The teaching of the “substance” did not originate with Jesus or the Christians. There is no record that they spoke of it since it is not found in the Bible. This doctrine goes back to Aristotle, Plato and other greek philosophers hundreds of years before Jesus. They began to reason about God and the universe. They taught God was a great power that filled the universe and that He could not come in contact with matter (which is impure). They taught there was only one God despite the common teaching of plurality of gods with physical bodies in their day. They tried to reason how God created our bodies and the universe if God could not come in contact with matter. And surely God could NOT have a body because a body was impure. They reasoned that there must be a second thing God used to created all things. They called this Logos. Logos could come in contact with matter. These philosophies evolved and changed over time. Hundreds of years later, after Jesus and His apostles were killed, this greek philosophy was still being taught among a largely pagan Roman empire. They were taught in higher schools of learning and boasted that they knew more about God than the early apostles and prophets who were simple fisherman and carpenters. Following the killing of many of the best Christians by Nero and other emperors, Emperor Constantine was the first to accept Christianity. Greek philosophies and Christianity merged together as one. God was the Father, Logos was the Son and the Holy Ghost was included. Supposing the body to be evil, many tortured or deprived their bodies. Some lived in solitary in the desert with little food and some took vows of silence. These are all greek philosophies. Today we see the philosophies of men, mingled with scripture defining the very nature of God.

 

[chris2009]

Please understand the purposes of Ecumenical Councils, specifically the Council of Nicaea. I’m sure you know that we’ve seen the above statements many times. Also, many people make the Trinity more complicated than it is. The issue comes when people don’t try to define what “one substance” means, so they make caricatures of the Trinity that are simply not true. The Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are three distinct Persons, yet they are of the same (one) divine essence.

None of this is an issue for Trinitarians. Again, we believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are distinct Persons. Obviously the Father was not talking to Himself, nor was Jesus Christ praying to Himself. Using “us” and “our” certainly was appropriate since there is a plurality in the Trinity.

Help me wrap my mind around your teaching of God. You believe the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are three distinct Persons. How are they not three Gods? Jesus taught the Father is greater than he is. Jesus taught you could deny him and be saved, but you cannot deny the Holy Ghost and be saved. Jesus prayed to His Father. When Jesus was baptized He heard the Father’s voice and saw the Holy Ghost descend like a dove. How are they not three distinct and seperate Gods? I know you are saying they are “one substance” or made of the same stuff. Wouldn’t they still be three?

This was the entire arguement of the Nicene Creed. Are they the “same substance” (homoousia) or are they a “similar substance” (homoiousia)? You’re missing just one iota! It changes the entire meaning. Even after the Nicene Creed it wasn’t settled and later evolved into the Athanasian Creed (which says they’re BOTH one AND three). It’s tough to combine greek philosophy with Christian doctrine.

I know you don’t believe the Father has a body of flesh and bone. Does the Father have a spirit body? What does it look like? Does it have shape? Does the Father have emotions?

Jesus Christ was resurrected and ascended into heaven that way. Do you believe Jesus still has a body of flesh and bone? What was the purpose of His resurrection? What was the point of it?

How about the Holy Spirit? Again, you’re still suggesting they are one God?

 

[rinnie]

Help me wrap my mind around your teaching of God. You believe the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are three distinct Persons. How are they not three Gods? Jesus taught the Father is greater than he is. Jesus taught you could deny him and be saved, but you cannot deny the Holy Ghost and be saved. Jesus prayed to His Father. When Jesus was baptized He heard the Father’s voice and saw the Holy Ghost descend like a dove. How are they not three distinct and seperate Gods? I know you are saying they are “one substance” or made of the same stuff. Wouldn’t they still be three?

This was the entire arguement of the Nicene Creed. Are they the “same substance” (homoousia) or are they a “similar substance” (homoiousia)? You’re missing just one iota! It changes the entire meaning. Even after the Nicene Creed it wasn’t settled and later evolved into the Athanasian Creed (which says they’re BOTH one AND three). It’s tough to combine greek philosophy with Christian doctrine.

I know you don’t believe the Father has a body of flesh and bone. Does the Father have a spirit body? What does it look like? Does it have shape? Does the Father have emotions?

Jesus Christ was resurrected and ascended into heaven that way. Do you believe Jesus still has a body of flesh and bone? What was the purpose of His resurrection? What was the point of it?

How about the Holy Spirit? Again, you’re still suggesting they are one God?

Let me make this simple. We believe in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit 3 separate persons ONE IN BEING.

Does that make it easier for you to understand? ONE in BEING. Meaning they are all made up of ONE GOD.

 

[heathernoel]

As for what he looks like…those to whom he’s shown himself too, except for Christ, have all been afraid to look.

That’s one of the reasons so many of us are quizzical about LDS. Everyone but JS has had fear?

Peace Be With You,
Heather

 

[TheosisM]

The Hebrew word Elohim is used 2618 times in the Old Testiment. All instances are translated as God or gods with rare exception.

There are 4 times it is translated as “judges”. Ex 21:6;22:8-9 (God’s representative is probably the intended meaning)

There is one time it is translated as “angels” Ps 8:5
The actual translation here should be “For thou hast made him a little lower than the [Elohim or Gods] , and hast crowned him with glory and honour.” The reason it was translated as “angels” and not “gods” was because of Heb 2:7 “Thou madest him a little lower than the angels; thou crownedst him with glory and honour, and didst set him over the works of thy hands” The Greek “aggelos” or angels is used here.

I personally am not concerned with how “Elohim” is translated in the Old Testament, because I see validity in both the judges and deification interpretations of Psalm 82. And in the case of Psalm 82, it isn’t a matter of how “elohim” is translated, but who “gods” refers to. But again, there is no issue with seeing it as referring to deification. I believe Saint Justin Martyr saw it this way.

The teaching of the “substance” did not originate with Jesus or the Christians. There is no record that they spoke of it since it is not found in the Bible. This doctrine goes back to Aristotle, Plato and other greek philosophers hundreds of years before Jesus. They began to reason about God and the universe. They taught God was a great power that filled the universe and that He could not come in contact with matter (which is impure). They taught there was only one God despite the common teaching of plurality of gods with physical bodies in their day. They tried to reason how God created our bodies and the universe if God could not come in contact with matter. And surely God could NOT have a body because a body was impure. They reasoned that there must be a second thing God used to created all things. They called this Logos. Logos could come in contact with matter. These philosophies evolved and changed over time. Hundreds of years later, after Jesus and His apostles were killed, this greek philosophy was still being taught among a largely pagan Roman empire. They were taught in higher schools of learning and boasted that they knew more about God than the early apostles and prophets who were simple fisherman and carpenters. Following the killing of many of the best Christians by Nero and other emperors, Emperor Constantine was the first to accept Christianity. Greek philosophies and Christianity merged together as one. God was the Father, Logos was the Son and the Holy Ghost was included. Supposing the body to be evil, many tortured or deprived their bodies. Some lived in solitary in the desert with little food and some took vows of silence. These are all greek philosophies. Today we see the philosophies of men, mingled with scripture defining the very nature of God.

The God of Greek Philosophy is not the God of Christianity. The issue here is that words that express a truth can be borrowed from elsewhere, without validating the entirety of that other system. Catholics believe that both faith and reason are important, and that it certainly is possible that non-Christians before Jesus Christ came to some valid conclusions about various issues. God can inspire anyone He chooses. The issue of “substance” makes perfect sense even when we stay away from philosophical explanations. Catholics also do not believe that the body is impure or evil, especially when the Son took on a body, was bodily resurrected, bodily ascended to Heaven, and still has His body. Nor is the “Logos” concept from philosophy the same as the “Logos” in Christianity (“Logos” meaning “Word”, which is Jesus Christ, and is found in the Bible).

 

[TheosisM]

Help me wrap my mind around your teaching of God. You believe the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are three distinct Persons. How are they not three Gods? Jesus taught the Father is greater than he is. Jesus taught you could deny him and be saved, but you cannot deny the Holy Ghost and be saved. Jesus prayed to His Father. When Jesus was baptized He heard the Father’s voice and saw the Holy Ghost descend like a dove. How are they not three distinct and seperate Gods? I know you are saying they are “one substance” or made of the same stuff. Wouldn’t they still be three?

Yes, Jesus prayed to His Father, Jesus was baptized, the Spirit was in the form of a dove, and heard the Father’s voice, Genesis talks about “us” and “our”, etc. Trinitarians fully agree with all of this. Yes, there are three, but three what? We believe that they are three “Persons”. They are completely distinct, which is why Jesus could pray to the Father and He wasn’t praying to Himself. What makes them one God is that they are of the same divine essence. There aren’t three different divine natures. There is only one. One Person is not more divine than another. We believe that the Father, Son, and Spirit are co-eternal, and there never was a time when one did not exist, nor when one wasn’t fully divine.

This was the entire arguement of the Nicene Creed. Are they the “same substance” (homoousia) or are they a “similar substance” (homoiousia)? You’re missing just one iota! It changes the entire meaning. Even after the Nicene Creed it wasn’t settled and later evolved into the Athanasian Creed (which says they’re BOTH one AND three). It’s tough to combine greek philosophy with Christian doctrine.

You keep saying “Greek Philosophy”, however the real issue here is that truths can be found in practically all religions, whether that truth is simply a belief in Divinity. These words can be used to explain clear truths of Christianity. When you say things like “both one and three”, you have to explain what you mean. They are not one and three in the same way, since that doesn’t make sense. Time and time again I have seen some Mormons (and other non-Trinitarians) say things like “one in three, three in one”, and never explain their understanding of what that means.

“Same substance” makes sense, because there is only one God, one Divinity. Each Person of the Trinity is a distinct Person, and is fully of this one divine essence. It emphasizes the eternal relationship between the Three, in that you cannot have the Son without the Father, and the Spirit proceeds from the Father (through the Son).

I know you don’t believe the Father has a body of flesh and bone. Does the Father have a spirit body? What does it look like? Does it have shape? Does the Father have emotions?

No man has seen what the Father looks like. Traditional Christians believe that only the Son has seen the Father. Catholics believe that in Heaven, we will perceive the Father directly in something called the “beatific vision”. Before this, whenever the Father has appeared to people, He has done so in “theophanies”. He has taken on forms that humans can perceive and understand.

Jesus Christ was resurrected and ascended into heaven that way. Do you believe Jesus still has a body of flesh and bone? What was the purpose of His resurrection? What was the point of it?

Yes, we believe that Jesus Christ was bodily resurrected, and bodily ascended to Heaven, and still has His glorified body. With the death of Jesus Christ, His resurrection is also very important, in that it is through the atonement and resurrection that we have our sins forgiven and receive eternal life from God. Jesus’ resurrection shows our future resurrection, where we will all be bodily resurrected.

How about the Holy Spirit? Again, you’re still suggesting they are one God?

The Holy Spirit is a spirit, and can enter the hearts of men to inspire us. Yes, they are one God, as I have already explained. They are three distinct Persons who are of the One Divine Essence, making them One God together.

 

[chris2009]

Let me make this simple. We believe in the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit 3 separate persons ONE IN BEING.

Does that make it easier for you to understand? ONE in BEING. Meaning they are all made up of ONE GOD.

I’m sorry, that didn’t simplify anything for me. Are you suggesting that splits up into seperate beings and then combines again? Define “ONE IN BEING”. Does God have a shape and form or is God just a giant power that fills the universe? Does Jesus still have a resurrected body? Or did he get rid of it?