Do LDS Prophets Really Talk To God?

[TexanKnight]

Parker, you seem like an awfully intelligent man. We are also pretty intelligent. Please do not insult our intelligence with the apologetics that you must resort to to defend the indefensible.

I pray with all my heart that you will accept the truth and come home. I would love to discuss issues with you as you attend RCIA

 

[hosemonkey]

Gee…it took a prophet to think of those things?

This tells me that a mormon “prophet” serves the same function as the chrome bullets on the bumper of a '57 Chevy, namely, pure decoration. Or it may serve the same purpose as the grandiose titles conferred upon the officers of the Ku Klux Klan, serving to wow the Hoi Polloi and instill a sense of awe, not mention something for the rubes to compete for. But, if it as it is described by mormons on here, nothing special. Then why carry on the charade?

 

[1voice]

Abraham had more than one wife, as did David, as did Jacob. That is part of the Bible. Jesus didn’t condemn Abraham, nor did Paul, who used him as an example of faithfulness.

1 Timothy 3:2
It behoveth therefore a bishop to be blameless, the husband of one wife

Titus 1:6
If anyone is above reproach, the husband of one wife …

 

[twopekinguys]

Just a small interjection here.

Tonight’s readings at Mass seem to apply quite well here.

Old Testament:

Moses spoke to all the people, saying:
“A prophet like me will the LORD, your God, raise up for you
from among your own kin;
to him you shall listen.
This is exactly what you requested of the LORD, your God, at Horeb
on the day of the assembly, when you said,
‘Let us not again hear the voice of the LORD, our God,
nor see this great fire any more, lest we die.’
And the LORD said to me, ‘This was well said.
I will raise up for them a prophet like you from among their kin,
and will put my words into his mouth;
he shall tell them all that I command him.
Whoever will not listen to my words which he speaks in my name,
I myself will make him answer for it.
But if a prophet presumes to speak in my name
an oracle that I have not commanded him to speak,
or speaks in the name of other gods, he shall die.’”
Dt 18:15-20
(bolding mine)

 

[theidler]

That was my point–that if people are looking for “some new thing”, then they should look elsewhere than for the teachings of a prophet of God. A prophet of God reinforces Biblical teachings, and then the members, if they listen and heed, have the teachings go deeply into their heart and soul and they live by the teachings.

An imaginary conversation. Perhaps if I pretend to be Parker, I can get more answers.

Me: So why then did Joseph Smith spout off a bunch of new things not previously found in the Hebrew or Christian Scriptures?
Parker: “Because he was restoring the Gospel, not speaking a new one.”

 

[ParkerD]

That was my point–that if people are looking for “some new thing”, then they should look elsewhere than for the teachings of a prophet of God. A prophet of God reinforces Biblical teachings, and then the members, if they listen and heed, have the teachings go deeply into their heart and soul and they live by the teachings.

TexanKnight,

This re-post is for you. “Biblical teachings” means more than just the New Testament.

 

[ParkerD]

An imaginary conversation. Perhaps if I pretend to be Parker, I can get more answers.

Me: So why then did Joseph Smith spout off a bunch of new things not previously found in the Hebrew or Christian Scriptures?
Parker: “Because he was restoring the Gospel, not speaking a new one.”

theidler,

The teachings are in the Bible. But there exists also the principle of free will choice, which is given by God so that people may choose what they will, according to their faith. That’s why Jesus taught in parables, as He explained to the apostles.

 

[theidler]

theidler,

The teachings are in the Bible. But there exists also the principle of free will choice, which is given by God so that people may choose what they will, according to their faith. That’s why Jesus taught in parables, as He explained to the apostles.

The teaching of black skin as being a curse is in the Bible? Where?
The teaching of God being once a man on another planet is in the Bible? Where?
The teaching that there are multiple Gods is in the Bible? Where?
The teaching of celestial marriage is in the Bible? Where?
The teaching of creation out of chaos and eternally existent matter is in the Bible? Where?

 

[ParkerD]

The teaching of black skin as being a curse is in the Bible? Where?

It was never a “curse”. Cain couldn’t hold the priesthood because he had disobeyed and mocked God. A “mark” was “set” upon him, so that he wouldn’t be killed. (Genesis 4:15)

The teaching of God being once a man on another planet is in the Bible? Where?

John 5:19. The Son does “what he seeth the Father do:”

The teaching that there are multiple Gods is in the Bible? Where?

That was why the Jewish leaders crucified Christ. Because they understood that He was saying He is I AM, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Jesus prayed that His followers would be able to be one with Him, and John taught correctly that to be one with Him is to be a son of God, a “ruler over many things”, a “joint heir with Christ” of “all things”. All things means all things.

The teaching of celestial marriage is in the Bible? Where?

Matthew 19:6 and Matthew 16:19.

The teaching of creation out of chaos and eternally existent matter is in the Bible? Where?

Genesis 1:2 and Genesis 2:1, 4 and 7 and 1:27.

 

[GaryTaylor]

John 5:19

How So?

google.com/url?q=http://bible.org/seriespage/father-son-john-519-30&sa=U&ei=ePQkT-L_N4bq0gHi9JjzCA&ved=0CBoQFjAD&sig2=Ytv3Zy5g5Wpp_fqPbAyzlg&usg=AFQjCNFXI5TK2on2CyiMj2o05-B0cIsZww

The link elaborates well and is pretty much spot on.

ParkerD to make extrodinary claims such as this you must have some sound logic? How so with John 5:19 in context/content? What else coincides 5:19? It doesn’t stand on its own?

Whats are you seeing’hearing, in this set of scripture verse?

 

[ParkerD]

How So?

google.com/url?q=http://bible.org/seriespage/father-son-john-519-30&sa=U&ei=ePQkT-L_N4bq0gHi9JjzCA&ved=0CBoQFjAD&sig2=Ytv3Zy5g5Wpp_fqPbAyzlg&usg=AFQjCNFXI5TK2on2CyiMj2o05-B0cIsZww

The link elaborates well and is pretty much spot on.

ParkerD to make extrodinary claims such as this you must have some sound logic? How so with John 5:19 in context/content? What else coincides 5:19? It doesn’t stand on its own?

Whats are you seeing’hearing, in this set of scripture verse?

Hi, GaryTaylor,

It is to take a literal meaning from that verse, just like we would mean if we said those words and were talking about our own personal father.

The apostle John provides unique insights with many passages that are not found in the other gospel texts–Matthew, Mark, and Luke. Several passages in John do “stand on their own” as far as being unique with very important but unique concepts that are not found in the other gospel texts. John was writing to believers in Jesus Christ as his primary readership audience.

 

[theidler]

It was never a “curse”. Cain couldn’t hold the priesthood because he had disobeyed and mocked God. A “mark” was “set” upon him, so that he wouldn’t be killed. (Genesis 4:15)

John 5:19. The Son does “what he seeth the Father do:”

That was why the Jewish leaders crucified Christ. Because they understood that He was saying He is I AM, the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Jesus prayed that His followers would be able to be one with Him, and John taught correctly that to be one with Him is to be a son of God, a “ruler over many things”, a “joint heir with Christ” of “all things”. All things means all things.

Matthew 19:6 and Matthew 16:19.

Genesis 1:2 and Genesis 2:1, 4 and 7 and 1:27.

Thank God you didn’t just slip away with an excuse or a dodge - now I actually have some things to work with. Thank you - I will reply later on.

 

[lax16]

theidler,

The teachings are in the Bible. But there exists also the principle of free will choice, which is given by God so that people may choose what they will, according to their faith. That’s why Jesus taught in parables, as He explained to the apostles.

Hi Parker - Hello! How are you? It has been a while since I’ve posted…

I have had a question and it “sort of” ties in to this thread.

Did Jesus know that his Church would fail (as per LDS belief)?
Do Mormons consider Jesus a prophet?
It is clear that the early Mormon church believed that the Catholic Church fell apart as attested by JS as he claimed he was the only one who could keep a church together and not even Jesus Christ himself could do that.

How did Jesus make promises that were not fulfilled (it is hard to type the words let alone believe them) - or-
Did Jesus not know what the future held for his Church?

 

[TexanKnight]

You keep dodging, Parker

Ah…the old “Old Testament folks did it 6000 years ago, so why not us” argument.

Tell me, did Joseph follow EVERYTHING they did in the OT, or just the ones that allowed Joseph to marry other people’s wives?

And YOU are the one who said the revelations only reinformned the NT. So, again, since you dodged the question…so polygamy was reinforcing what Jesus taught? Denying blacks the Priesthood was reinforcing what Jesus taught? Perhaps you should show me in the NT where Jesus taught those things

 

[theidler]

Alright Parker – first issue. You said: “The teachings are in the Bible”.
To your replies to my questions then - Your first answer is a dodge, but at least it is an answer, and for this I thank you. Now – the summary of the fifth chapter of 2 Nephi runs thus: “The Nephites separate themselves from the Lamanites, keep the law of Moses, and build a temple—Because of their unbelief, the Lamanites are cut off from the presence of the Lord, are cursed, and become a scourge unto the Nephites. About 588–559 B.C.”
Never a curse? I beg to differ. Now, what does this curse consist of? 2 Nephi 5:21:
“And he had caused the acursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and bdelightsome, that they might not be centicing unto my people the Lord God did cause a dskin of eblackness to come upon them.”
This says to me that God cursed the Lamanites with dark skin – now, I asked where in the actual Scriptures this is found. You referenced Cain – Cain was cast out by God due to his murder of his brother Abel. Cain is also an allegory for those who reject God, whereas Abel is for those who accept and follow. I see nowhere in the Scriptures that Cain is given dark skin and that this somehow means that he is abhorred by God or anything else of a similar nature. It might be wise here, Parker, to at least admit that much of early Mormonism was based in a racism that was quite prevalent at the time.

 

[theidler]

Second issue –
You referenced John 5:19 in support of the Mormon doctrine (if there even is such a thing anymore, I’m beginning to wonder) of God once being a man and living on another planet. This kind of absurd reasoning is not even worth arguing with – I might as well cite Jeremiah 1:1 in support of my own doctrine that potato salad is disgusting. There is no relation here.
Third issue –
Though the Bible continually speaks of only ONE God, you say there are many gods and the proof of this is that Jesus states that He is the “I AM”, thus equating Himself with God. Of course, as Mormons try to wittle down deeper theological ideas into easily understood and digestible chunks, it is not surprising that your reply strikes at the very heart of the Holy Trinity – a doctrine central to all three major traditions within Christendom. If the Scriptures say repeatedly that there is only ONE God, then we must understand the nature of this ONE God, and how the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit relate to each other. Mormons can’t even begin to explain this, other than by reverting to fleshly and polytheistic ideas without ever asking why the Holy Spirit is simply spirit and not flesh and blood like all other Mormon gods.
Fourth issue –
On the contrary, I would cite Matthew 22:30, Mark 12:25, and Luke 20:35. Your Scripture references are referring to divorce in this earthly life, not to some kind of celestial marriage to goddess wives.
Fifth issue –
On the contrary, Origen (whom seems to be a favorite of ransacking and twisting by Mormon apologists) tells us “But also the ‘darkness’ which was ‘upon the face of the deep’ is not uncreated; for both were created out of nothing. Hear God speaking in Isaiah: ‘I am the Lord; I form light and create darkness’ (Isa 45:7). Listen how Wisdom in Proverbs proclaims: ‘When there were no depths I was brought forth’ (Prov 8:24). These things are not uncreated, but when or how they were born, I do not know.” (Homily on Isaiah IV:1).

 

[ParkerD]

Hi Parker - Hello! How are you? It has been a while since I’ve posted…

I have had a question and it “sort of” ties in to this thread.

1. Did Jesus know that his Church would fail (as per LDS belief)?
2. Do Mormons consider Jesus a prophet?
3. It is clear that the early Mormon church believed that the Catholic Church fell apart as attested by JS as he claimed he was the only one who could keep a church together and not even Jesus Christ himself could do that.
4. How did Jesus make promises that were not fulfilled (it is hard to type the words let alone believe them) - or-
5. Did Jesus not know what the future held for his Church?

Hi, Lax16,

What a beautiful day today. I hope your family is well. We’re doing quite well, although I have two daughters with challenges right now so we hope for the best for them.

1. It would be well to keep in mind that the word that is rendered in English, “church”, came from the meaning of “ecclesia” which means “congregation of believers”.

So that makes your question,
“Did Jesus know that his congregation of believers would fail?”

Answer: He knew they wouldn’t fail if they were truly believers in Him, and were founded on the Rock as He taught them to be. So, the answer is that He knows who they are and who they were when He spoke the words about “congregation of believers”, and knows they will not fail so long as their sure foundation is the Rock, Jesus Christ, the Messiah.

1. He is the prophet spoken of by Moses “whom the Lord shall raise up like unto me; him shall ye hear”–yes, and of course more than a prophet.
2. Joseph Smith wasn’t talking about the Catholic church one way or the other, at all.
3. All His promises are sure, and were and are being fulfilled.
4. As far as the organization that your use of the word “church” seems to be referring to, He prophesied that “his inheritance” would be interrupted by a group (the Jewish leaders) who would attempt to “seize on his inheritance” after they had killed him. (Matthew 21:38-39). He also stated a consequence in the parable He taught. (v. 43)

Jesus is all-knowing. He knew the future, and knew the strength that is continually available to His congregation of believers, then and now.

This can mean any of us reading this; it can mean our children; I think it is right and proper for any of us to personalize it to mean “me, and my children”. The designation is “believers in Him”. This we do, fervently and joyfully and with blessings attending.

 

[ParkerD]

Alright Parker – first issue. You said: “The teachings are in the Bible”.
To your replies to my questions then - Your first answer is a dodge, but at least it is an answer, and for this I thank you. Now – the summary of the fifth chapter of 2 Nephi runs thus: “The Nephites separate themselves from the Lamanites, keep the law of Moses, and build a temple—Because of their unbelief, the Lamanites are cut off from the presence of the Lord, are cursed, and become a scourge unto the Nephites. About 588–559 B.C.”
Never a curse? I beg to differ. Now, what does this curse consist of? 2 Nephi 5:21:
“And he had caused the cursing to come upon them, yea, even a sore cursing, because of their iniquity. For behold, they had hardened their hearts against him, that they had become like unto a flint; wherefore, as they were white, and exceedingly fair and delightsome, that they might not be enticing unto my people the Lord God did cause a skin of blackness to come upon them.”
This says to me that God cursed the Lamanites with dark skin – now, I asked where in the actual Scriptures this is found. You referenced Cain – Cain was cast out by God due to his murder of his brother Abel. Cain is also an allegory for those who reject God, whereas Abel is for those who accept and follow. I see nowhere in the Scriptures that Cain is given dark skin and that this somehow means that he is abhorred by God or anything else of a similar nature. It might be wise here, Parker, to at least admit that much of early Mormonism was based in a racism that was quite prevalent at the time.

theidler,

Two important points:

1. Repentant Lamanites were able to hold the priesthood, and did hold the priesthood, beginning when their group repented when they were taught the gospel and believed it.
2. Your citation from 2 Nephi left off the verse that describes the “curse”, which is verse 20–they were cut off from the presence of the Lord. The curse was not a skin color–it was being cut off from the presence of the Lord, because of hard-heartedness.

 

[TexanKnight]

Hi, Lax16,

Answer: He knew they wouldn’t fail if they were truly believers in Him, and were founded on the Rock as He taught them to be.

All due respect, to say this, you MUST be claiming Jesus was a liar. He did not EVER say He knew His Church would fail. I challenge you (though you dodge all my challenges) to show me a single verse where Jesus said His Church would fail. He didn’t. In fact, he said the opposite when He said “The gates of hell would NEVER prevail” against His Church

1. He is the prophet spoken of by Moses “whom the Lord shall raise up like unto me; him shall ye hear”–yes, and of course more than a prophet.

BUT, Mormons believe Jesus is less than Joseph Smith. Remember, Joseph claimed to have done more for the church than even Jesus Himself

1. Joseph Smith wasn’t talking about the Catholic church one way or the other, at all.

Actually, as the LDS temple ceremonies used to show, Joseph Smith believed the Catholic Church to be of Satan

1. All His promises are sure, and were and are being fulfilled.

Make up your mind. Some of jesus’ promises you reject and some you accept

1. As far as the organization that your use of the word “church” seems to be referring to, He prophesied that “his inheritance” would be interrupted by a group (the Jewish leaders) who would attempt to “seize on his inheritance” after they had killed him. (Matthew 21:38-39). He also stated a consequence in the parable He taught. (v. 43)

Jesus is all-knowing. He knew the future, and knew the strength that is continually available to His congregation of believers, then and now.

This can mean any of us reading this; it can mean our children; I think it is right and proper for any of us to personalize it to mean “me, and my children”. The designation is “believers in Him”. This we do, fervently and joyfully and with blessings attending.

Actually, this is not true. See, to accept the LDS faith, one must beleive Jesus either had no clue about the future, or Jesus was extremely cruel. Remember, IF Jesus knows the future, then, for the LDS Church to be true, Jesus HAD to know His Church would fail within 200 years…yet, knowing this, Jesus sent HIS VERY BEST FRIENDS and followers out to die HORRIBLE deaths for a Church He KNEW was going fail. That is the ONLY way the LDS Church is true. I simply cannot accept that.

 

[TexanKnight]

theidler,

Two important points:

1. Repentant Lamanites were able to hold the priesthood, and did hold the priesthood, beginning when their group repented when they were taught the gospel and believed it.
2. Your citation from 2 Nephi left off the verse that describes the “curse”, which is verse 20–they were cut off from the presence of the Lord. The curse was not a skin color–it was being cut off from the presence of the Lord, because of hard-heartedness.

Another example of failed apologetics and the need to change history. In all truth, the curse WAS the darkening of skin. But, they were promised they would become “white and delightsome” if they accepted God. Problem is, many DID accept God, but never became white. So, the curese has been changed from skin to presence and white had to be changed to “pure”.

When you have false prophets, you have a continual need to change your doctrine and history

Parker, it pains me greatly to expose your church like this. Come home!