Do LDS Prophets Really Talk To God?

[ParkerD]

You have never explained how He can be the Only Begotten Son, when according to the LDS church we are all literal offspring of Heavenly Father.

Zaffiroborant,

Since God has all things before His eyes “in the present” whether they are events from the past, the present, or the future, then Jesus being the Only Begotten Son shows that Heavenly Father foreordained Jesus to be His Son literally on this earth so that Jesus could indeed be our Redeemer and could have the power within Himself to resurrect Himself. Jesus is the literal heir of His Father and of all that His Father has.

One does well to study the parable in Matthew 21:33-43, knowing that the words “this is the heir” literally mean Jesus.

No other spirit child of God is the literal heir. We can become “heirs” by “adoption” (as Paul described it) and by being “begotten sons and daughters unto God”, by being “spiritually begotten” by Jesus Christ, “becoming His sons and His daughters”. Then He prepares us through His grace and our repentance, to be in the presence of God the Father and be a joint heir with Him.

 

[zaffiroborant]

Zaffiroborant,

Since God has all things before His eyes “in the present” whether they are events from the past, the present, or the future, then Jesus being the Only Begotten Son shows that Heavenly Father foreordained Jesus to be His Son literally on this earth so that Jesus could indeed be our Redeemer and could have the power within Himself to resurrect Himself. Jesus is the literal heir of His Father and of all that His Father has.

One does well to study the parable in Matthew 21:33-43, knowing that the words “this is the heir” literally mean Jesus.

No other spirit child of God is the literal heir. We can become “heirs” by “adoption” (as Paul described it) and by being “begotten sons and daughters unto God”, by being “spiritually begotten” by Jesus Christ, “becoming His sons and His daughters”. Then He prepares us through His grace and our repentance, to be in the presence of God the Father and be a joint heir with Him.

So then Jesus is the Only Begotten Son because He is the only one whose physical body (tabernacle) was literally begotten by the Father.

BTW I just read that parable last Saturday and discussed it with 15 seventh graders.

 

[ParkerD]

So then Jesus is the Only Begotten Son because He is the only one whose physical body (tabernacle) was literally begotten by the Father.

BTW I just read that parable last Saturday and discussed it with 15 seventh graders.

Zaffiroborant,

I think what Heavenly Father wants us to keep central in our minds as we stay focused on His Only Begotten Son and learn to trust Him and believe in Him, is that He is not only the Royal Heir “according to the flesh” by means of His royal birth and paternity, but that He is also the Royal Heir in His spiritual qualities which are like His Father in all ways, and that He is foreordained to be our Messiah, our Exemplar, and the Sent One to bring us to God purified and made holy through His grace.

I think the words “his inheritance” are very important in that parable.

'Wishing you a blessed, joyful day.

 

[TexanKnight]

Nicea325,
Jesus said as recorded in that passage in John
Second, it is pure conjecture on your part to assume because Jesus said He has seen what His Father already did,thus meaning His Father also came to earth,etc,etc. If so,did His Father also die on the cross? Does that mean God the Father failed,thus His Son had do it a second time to get it right for the salvation of humanity?

How in the world can you jump from Jesus doing what He saw His Father do to God the Father came to a world, was crucified, etc? I csn do what I saw my father do without doing EVERYTHING my father did. You must take the verse in context. This is just wrong.

 

[JHow]

…My personal belief, since there is not a doctrinal statement about that and so we don’t know, is that Jesus’ infinite atonement was infinite for all the worlds that will be created under His tutelage, just as for all the worlds that He created already.

So my opinion is that there will not be other “Saviors” needed for all the worlds that will be created in the future, but others might have a different opinion about that. Doctrine and Covenants 76 states “the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God,” speaking of the worlds that “are and were created”.

Hebrews 9 is pretty clear that Christ’s sacrifice is a once-for-all-time event, unique, with no precedent and not to be repeated:

Here it is KJV version:

24For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:

25Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;

26For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.

27And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

28So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation

 

[KathleenGee]

Parker,

Your response you just gave here about God Himself is your interpreter, Joseph Smith’s projecting the carnal man, bones and flesh onto God Himself…fuzzy thinking about even Who God is…

For 2,000 years, the universal Church has proclaimed the Apostles Creed at daily Mass. When a priest named Arian began to promote his idea of Christ having a beginning and end, St. Athanasius rose up, being removed or put into exile from his episcopacy 5 times…It was time now for the Church to clearly define Christ as God and Man. Subsequently, the Nicene Creed defined the fullness of Christ, and this work of St. Athanasius in the Church completed the revelation of Christ to us. I did this on another post and will do it again here…

We must look to the Deposit of Faith given us by faith in Sacred Scriptures from God through the Holy Spirit, providing us the moral life to prophesizing the coming of the Messiah, Jesus Christ, to save mankind from its sins through His death and resurrection, the Holy Spirit proceeding to begin His Church through Christ’s chosen witnesses, the Apostles, who in turn chose their successors, all through the Holy Spirit.

This is the Deposit of faith and all theologies must conform to the truths of our Deposit of Faith. This translation is the most literal translation from Latin to English that can be humanly done. This Nicene Creed is proclaimed every Resurrection Sunday…meaning every Sunday (and Saturday Vigil) – for 1,700 years by all believers throughout the world.

**I believe in one God, the Father almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all things visible and invisible.

  I believe in one Lord Jesus Christ,
  the Only Begotten Son of God,
  born of the Father before all ages,
 God from God, Light from Light,
 true God from true God,
 begotten, not made, consubstantial with the Father;
 through him all things were made.
 For us men and for our salvation
 he came down from heaven,

(Bow) and by the Holy Spirit was incarnate of the Virgin Mary, and became man.

 For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate,
 he suffered death and was buried,
And rose again on the third day
in accordance with the Scriptures.
He ascended into heaven
and is seated at the right hand of the Father.

He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead
and his kingdom will have no end.

I believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son,
who with the Father and the Son is adored and glorified,
who has spoken through the prophets.

I believe in one, holy, catholic and apostolic Church.
I confess one baptism for the forgiveness of sins
and I look forward to the resurrection of the dead
and the life of the world to come. Amen.**

Our faith in God through the Creed is prayerfully proclaimed to the world.

Note with the word, consubstantial, it does not exist outside of the Church. The Church created ‘consubstantial’ to define the reality of the Oneness of God in Three Persons.

 

[KathleenGee]

And as I just stated on another thread, John Paul II said our beliefs bear fruit in thought and practice.

If we believe in the universal Deposit of Faith, our fruit in thought and practice is Jesus Christ and eternal life, and of ‘life of the world to come’.

If we believe in the interpretations of Joseph Smith, then the fruit of this man’s thinking is a man’s bones and flesh…that do not bring us eternal life, but return to dust.

 

[1voice]

JHow,

My personal belief, since there is not a doctrinal statement about that and so we don’t know, is that Jesus’ infinite atonement was infinite for all the worlds that will be created under His tutelage, just as for all the worlds that He created already.

So my opinion is that there will not be other “Saviors” needed for all the worlds that will be created in the future, but others might have a different opinion about that. Doctrine and Covenants 76 states “the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God,” speaking of the worlds that “are and were created”.

How does that reconcile with this …

---

Originally Posted by ParkerD
theidler,

Jesus was born on this earth, a planet. He is Man of holiness. He took upon himself a tabernacle of flesh and bones. After His death, He brought about His own resurrection with a glorified body of flesh and bones.

To say that the Father also did those things, before, on another earth, is the answer to your question about why those verses apply. Jesus did what He had seen that His Father had already done.

 

[Telstar]

Zaffiroborant,

Since God has all things before His eyes “in the present” whether they are events from the past, the present, or the future, then Jesus being the Only Begotten Son shows that Heavenly Father foreordained Jesus to be His Son literally on this earth so that Jesus could indeed be our Redeemer and could have the power within Himself to resurrect Himself. Jesus is the literal heir of His Father and of all that His Father has.

One does well to study the parable in Matthew 21:33-43, knowing that the words “this is the heir” literally mean Jesus.

No other spirit child of God is the literal heir. We can become “heirs” by “adoption” (as Paul described it) and by being “begotten sons and daughters unto God”, by being “spiritually begotten” by Jesus Christ, “becoming His sons and His daughters”. Then He prepares us through His grace and our repentance, to be in the presence of God the Father and be a joint heir with Him.

Parker, if we looked at Jesus the way LDS do, then we would have to believe that He had a beginning just as we had a beginning, when we were all ‘born’ as ‘spirit children’ of God. That would ultimately make us equal to Him, which we are most certainly not. It doesn’t matter whether He was the ‘firstborn’ son or not, because even firstborn sons can lose their ‘inheritance’ if they don’t turn out to please their fathers. It completely diminishes Jesus and brings Him down to our level, before He was ever born in the flesh. It also implies that if Jesus had been the one that refused to follow “the Father’s plan”, then Lucifer, or any one of us, could have taken His place as the Savior. That’s absolutely ludicrous to even consider as a possibility. It reduces Jesus to being just one of many ‘spirit children’, and elevates all mankind in a way that makes us seem to be much more than we really are. We are all created by God.

We are mere creatures of God until we are favored to be adopted by Him through our Baptism, and by living a holy life on earth as Jesus taught us to live it, through love. Then, and only then, do we become adopted children of God. Any child that is adopted is certainly not the natural child of their adoptive parent, even though they still love them as if they were their own.

It’s an absolutely abhorrent insult to the great Majesty of Jesus Christ as being the Only Begotten Son of God, if we also see ourselves as being ‘begotten children’, in any way, before we’re born on this earth. Jesus was never ‘begotten’ as a ‘spirit child’ of the Father and some unnamed ‘heavenly mother’. He has always existed as God, along with the Father and the Holy Spirit, long before anything or anyone else, either spiritual or material, was ever created by Him. IMHO… To see Jesus as anything less than that is an abominable sin against His Omnipotence, because it diminishes His true position as the Eternal Son of God.[1 John 4:][2] By this is the spirit of God known. Every spirit which confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh, is of God: [3] And every spirit that dissolveth Jesus, is not of God: and this is Antichrist, of whom you have heard that he cometh, and he is now already in the world.

 

[KathleenGee]

Yes…in 666, that is 1800 years after the death and resurrection of Christ, when now philosophical and political movements took off now making man himself god…the 600 mark before was the foundations beginning for the dismantling of Christianity through Sola Scriptura and the Enlightenment, Descartes’ ‘I think, therefore I am’…relativism…

To Marx, Hegel, Nietzche and the Socialist state…to man becoming god…which is AntiChrist…

I would say these times are very much reflective of antichrist in various forms.

 

[Nicea325]

Nicea325,
Jesus said as recorded in that passage in John
Second, it is pure conjecture on your part to assume because Jesus said He has seen what His Father already did,thus meaning His Father also came to earth,etc,etc. If so,did His Father also die on the cross? Does that mean God the Father failed,thus His Son had do it a second time to get it right for the salvation of humanity?

The gospel of John was written to believers, and contains greater knowledge about Jesus and His relationship to God the Father than the other three gospels. Jesus said “For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;” (John 5:26)

How, one asks as they read that simple statement, did Jesus have “life in himself”?

Answer: by being able to resurrect Himself after His death, and to lay down His life in and of Himself.

So the Father must have had that power also.

It doesn’t mean anything about whether the Father had to die on a cross. It means the Father had life in Himself, also. The Father didn’t fail, of course, ever.

Aahhhhh…Jesus is begotten of the Father,hence Jesus IS God.

 

[Nicea325]

Originally Posted by ParkerD

Nicea325,
Second, it is pure conjecture on your part to assume
because Jesus said He has seen what His Father already did,thus meaning His Father also came to earth,etc,etc. If so,did His Father also die on the cross? Does that mean God the Father failed,thus His Son had do it a second time to get it right for the salvation of humanity?

TexanKnight:

How in the world can you jump from Jesus doing what He saw His Father do to God the Father came to a world, was crucified, etc? I csn do what I saw my father do without doing EVERYTHING my father did. You must take the verse in context. This is just wrong

.

Exactly!

 

[ParkerD]

Originally Posted by ParkerD

.

Exactly!

Nicea325,

Perhaps you figured out that when I pulled up your quote, I moved the quote mark to answer your first question, then missed that I was leaving the rest of your quoted questions within my “comment” section.

So it appears to me that TexanKnight misunderstood that what he quoted as coming from me, actually came from you even though I messed up by not editing my comment and catching my mistake. (I was in a hurry with family activities going on.)

 

[1voice]

ParkerD:
Parker,
Can you clarify … your 2 statements seem to conflict. If one is true … the other cant be … IMHO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ParkerD
JHow,

My personal belief, since there is not a doctrinal statement about that and so we don’t know, is that Jesus’ infinite atonement was infinite for all the worlds that will be created under His tutelage, just as for all the worlds that He created already.

So my opinion is that there will not be other “Saviors” needed for all the worlds that will be created in the future, but others might have a different opinion about that. Doctrine and Covenants 76 states “the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God,” speaking of the worlds that “are and were created”.

---

How does that reconcile with this …

---

Originally Posted by ParkerD
theidler,

Jesus was born on this earth, a planet. He is Man of holiness. He took upon himself a tabernacle of flesh and bones. After His death, He brought about His own resurrection with a glorified body of flesh and bones.

To say that the Father also did those things, before, on another earth, is the answer to your question about why those verses apply. Jesus did what He had seen that His Father had already done.

 

[TexanKnight]

Nicea325,

Perhaps you figured out that when I pulled up your quote, I moved the quote mark to answer your first question, then missed that I was leaving the rest of your quoted questions within my “comment” section.

So it appears to me that TexanKnight misunderstood that what he quoted as coming from me, actually came from you even though I messed up by not editing my comment and catching my mistake. (I was in a hurry with family activities going on.)

No Parker. I was correctly talking to you.

 

[Annie_B]

In asnwer to your topic title/question: a resounding YES. However, if you think about it so do Catholics…Anyone who prays talks to God

Annie

 

[ParkerD]

Parker,
Can you clarify … your 2 statements seem to conflict. If one is true … the other cant be … IMHO.

Quote:
Originally Posted by ParkerD
JHow,

My personal belief, since there is not a doctrinal statement about that and so we don’t know, is that Jesus’ infinite atonement was infinite for all the worlds that will be created under His tutelage, just as for all the worlds that He created already.

So my opinion is that there will not be other “Saviors” needed for all the worlds that will be created in the future, but others might have a different opinion about that. Doctrine and Covenants 76 states “the inhabitants thereof are begotten sons and daughters unto God,” speaking of the worlds that “are and were created”.

---

How does that reconcile with this …

---

Originally Posted by ParkerD
theidler,

Jesus was born on this earth, a planet. He is Man of holiness. He took upon himself a tabernacle of flesh and bones. After His death, He brought about His own resurrection with a glorified body of flesh and bones.

To say that the Father also did those things, before, on another earth, is the answer to your question about why those verses apply. Jesus did what He had seen that His Father had already done.

Hi, 1voice,

We have been busy with a special family gathering prior to my son leaving tomorrow for two years, so this will be somewhat short.

What I meant in the second quote above is that Heavenly Father lived on an earth (based on John 5:19), and had power over death and thus had power to bring about His own resurrection. This does not mean the Father died by being crucified–it means He had the power to lay down His own life because “He hath life in himself” (John 5:26), thus having the power to bring about His own resurrection. This means the Father was perfect when He lived on an earth before His resurrection, because it means He didn’t need “a Savior” in order to be resurrected from death, just as Jesus didn’t need “a Savior” because He was also perfect and also had the power “given to the Son to have life in himself” (5:26).

Jesus did what He had seen His Father do–but that does not mean the Father had been crucified on an earth, because being crucified was not something Jesus did “of himself”. Jesus allowed Himself to be crucified, but He didn’t choose that for Himself. He “is brought as a lamb to the slaughter” (Isaiah 53:7). He knew it was going to happen, and chose to allow it to happen for the blessing ultimately of the whole world and all people of all time, and laid down His life when His atoning sacrifice was completed, but what I was saying He had seen His Father do was resurrect with His own power over death. Again, to reiterate, the Father “hath life in himself”. The Father showed Jesus “all things that himself doeth”. (John 5:20)

The power of resurrection and the fact of our own resurrection is one of the major messages of John chapter 5. Our resurrection is a supernal gift of Jesus Christ to all mankind. To say that the Father also was resurrected in and of Himself does not lessen the glory of the Father, at all. To say that would be to lessen one’s regard for the glory of Jesus Christ.

 

[1voice]

Hi, 1voice,

We have been busy with a special family gathering prior to my son leaving tomorrow for two years, so this will be somewhat short.

What I meant in the second quote above is that Heavenly Father lived on an earth (based on John 5:19), and had power over death and thus had power to bring about His own resurrection. This does not mean the Father died by being crucified–it means He had the power to lay down His own life because “He hath life in himself” (John 5:26), thus having the power to bring about His own resurrection. This means the Father was perfect when He lived on an earth before His resurrection, because it means He didn’t need “a Savior” in order to be resurrected from death, just as Jesus didn’t need “a Savior” because He was also perfect and also had the power “given to the Son to have life in himself” (5:26).

Jesus did what He had seen His Father do–but that does not mean the Father had been crucified on an earth, because being crucified was not something Jesus did “of himself”. Jesus allowed Himself to be crucified, but He didn’t choose that for Himself. He “is brought as a lamb to the slaughter” (Isaiah 53:7). He knew it was going to happen, and chose to allow it to happen for the blessing ultimately of the whole world and all people of all time, and laid down His life when His atoning sacrifice was completed, but what I was saying He had seen His Father do was resurrect with His own power over death. Again, to reiterate, the Father “hath life in himself”. The Father showed Jesus “all things that himself doeth”. (John 5:20)

The power of resurrection and the fact of our own resurrection is one of the major messages of John chapter 5. Our resurrection is a supernal gift of Jesus Christ to all mankind. To say that the Father also was resurrected in and of Himself does not lessen the glory of the Father, at all. To say that would be to lessen one’s regard for the glory of Jesus Christ.

I wish you, your son and your family all the best … and a safe trip for your son.

So, in the above you are saying that the Father was born, lived, died and resurrected on another planet but he did not atone for sin?

 

[ParkerD]

I wish you, your son and your family all the best … and a safe trip for your son.

So, in the above you are saying that the Father was born, lived, died and resurrected on another planet but he did not atone for sin?

1voice,

Thanks kindly.

I would alter the statement to say that “the Father lived a perfect life and had power over death, died and resurrected on another planet outside of our universe”, but in my opinion from my reading and pondering the subject, He did not need to atone for the sins of other souls and therefore “He did not atone for sin”. However, if I learn differently than that in the hereafter, then I have no misgivings about learning differently about it than this opinion I have formed over the years from personal study while pondering the question of “how God came to be God”.

I think I should add that the perfect love Heavenly Father had in that circumstance eons ago, means He was aware of “intelligences” who existed and who had the capacity to be “enlarged” in their ability to progress and that He loved them (among whom are we).

He knew perfectly with no doubt or hesitation that He could bring forth the very greatest of these “intelligences” to be a spirit Son who could live a perfect life on an earth as He had done, and could be endued with the capacity as the Son of God to Create the heavens and the earth (and other earths) of the universe we know and could be sent to this earth to atone for the sins of other spirits who would also be brought forth to be spirits; and that they (we) would be sent to this earth in their time if they chose to accept the Son of God as their foreordained Redeemer and chose to accept to come here so they could progress by living a mortal life amidst opposition, challenge and adversity, but also the knowledge through the light of Christ of Their infinite love, compassion, wisdom and mercy.

 

[JHow]

…while pondering the question of “how God came to be God”

You are asking the wrong question. God is. He didn’t come to be Himself. He is “I am”. You have to understand that Time is a created thing. There is no universal time coordinate one can apply to God. This is hard for us, because we live in Time. Have a read through St. Augustine’s Confessions Book 11.

Therefore, let it see that all time past is forced to move on by the incoming future; that all the future follows from the past; and that all, past and future, is created and issues out of that which is forever present. Who will hold the heart of man that it may stand still and see how the eternity which always stands still is itself neither future nor past but expresses itself in the times that are future and past?