Do LDS Prophets Really Talk To God?

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I don’t believe what your lesson manuals teach either.
RebeccaJ,

I knew you don’t believe those manuals. I do. The manual cited scriptures, and the teacher using the manual would be expected to use the scriptures to amplify the lesson. The manual gives the “basics”–not every word that is expected to be used during the course of a lesson.

During the course of a lesson using that manual, as the lesson outline shows they would discuss the calling of the twelve disciples among the Nephites and Lamanites when Christ visited that small Nephite/Lamanite group He visited and called twelve “disciples” and gave them authority to minister among the Nephites and Lamanites, and taught them that the law of sacrifice had been fulfilled in Him.

The lesson discussion would thus talk about the “Twelve Apostles” of our day, and the Twelve Apostles called by Jesus, plus the apostles such as Paul who were called after the original twelve. If the teacher has been paying attention to the recent emphasis on counsels, then he or she would probably discuss the importance of the Council of the Twelve Apostles and their role in giving unique perspectives and insights to the prophet.

That lesson used a plural noun several times when talking about “leaders” or “the disciples”. It is an understood thing that the leaders counsel together. It didn’t have to be stated explicitly, because it is a known thing within the church, and has been emphasized all the more in recent years.
 
Hi, 1voice,

We have been busy with a special family gathering prior to my son leaving tomorrow for two years, so this will be somewhat short.

What I meant in the second quote above is that Heavenly Father lived on an earth (based on John 5:19), and had power over death and thus had power to bring about His own resurrection. This does not mean the Father died by being crucified–it means He had the power to lay down His own life because “He hath life in himself” (John 5:26), thus having the power to bring about His own resurrection. This means the Father was perfect when He lived on an earth before His resurrection, because it means He didn’t need “a Savior” in order to be resurrected from death, just as Jesus didn’t need “a Savior” because He was also perfect and also had the power “given to the Son to have life in himself” (5:26).

Jesus did what He had seen His Father do–but that does not mean the Father had been crucified on an earth, because being crucified was not something Jesus did “of himself”. Jesus allowed Himself to be crucified, but He didn’t choose that for Himself. He “is brought as a lamb to the slaughter” (Isaiah 53:7). He knew it was going to happen, and chose to allow it to happen for the blessing ultimately of the whole world and all people of all time, and laid down His life when His atoning sacrifice was completed, but what I was saying He had seen His Father do was resurrect with His own power over death. Again, to reiterate, the Father “hath life in himself”. The Father showed Jesus “all things that himself doeth”. (John 5:20)

The power of resurrection and the fact of our own resurrection is one of the major messages of John chapter 5. Our resurrection is a supernal gift of Jesus Christ to all mankind. To say that the Father also was resurrected in and of Himself does not lessen the glory of the Father, at all. To say that would be to lessen one’s regard for the glory of Jesus Christ.
So … If this Godly power and character is passed down from Father to son … who himself then becomes a Father that begets a son and so on …

Questions:
What was the first cause? In other words … What or whom initiated the progression of Fathers begetting Sons ?

What is the source of each new son? I know that you alluded to that subject in #195 when you said that “the Father was aware of intelligences”
.
… What is the source of these intelligences?

Did one of these ‘intelligences’ become Jesus the Christ?

Was the Father once an ‘intelligence’ at some previous time who was mentored by his own Father?
 
In case anyone is still confused about how Mormons determine whether the prophet in Salt Lake City is really speaking for God, it’s really not that complicated. Here’s a handy flowchart someone created that describes the process. All it takes is beginning with a sincere prayer!

View attachment 12914
 
So … If this Godly power and character is passed down from Father to son … who himself then becomes a Father that begets a son and so on …

Questions:
  1. What was the first cause? In other words … What or whom initiated the progression of Fathers begetting Sons ?
  2. What is the source of each new son? I know that you alluded to that subject in #195 when you said that “the Father was aware of intelligences”
    .
    … What is the source of these intelligences?
Did one of these ‘intelligences’ become Jesus the Christ?
  1. Was the Father once an ‘intelligence’ at some previous time who was mentored by his own Father?
1voice,

My answers are going to be exploratory rather than just give my opinions since the scriptures don’t answer most of those questions.
  1. I think there is a good reason that we don’t know the answer to that question. It may have been that God the Father was the “very first Father”, and began everything subsequent to Him being filled with the love that moved Him to bring forth His FirstBorn Only Begotten Son so that They could bring forth a plan of salvation for other spirit sons and daughters of Him. It may have been that God the Father was a Son before He was a Father–I don’t know, and the scriptures don’t say.
What I think makes perfect sense, knowing that both God the Father and Jesus Christ do everything They do for our ultimate benefit and blessing (the highest possible good), and knowing that the Father could have been the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob had He wanted to, but gave that position to His Son, and gave to His Son the position of being the Creator of the heavens and many earths–then I think God the Father wants us to focus on the Savior, Jesus Christ, as our Rock and foundation and sure guide to bring us back to our Heavenly Father’s presence able to be in His glorified presence without being fearful or being seared with guilt.

If They had placed within the scriptures information about where Heavenly Father “came from”, then it sounds to me like that would have been a digression and a diversion from Their intent to have us focus on the Savior as our sure guide and our Master Teacher, as well as our Savior and Redeemer.

However, I think anyone can pray about any question they have such as those questions, praying to Heavenly Father or God the Father or Father in Heaven, in the name of Jesus Christ, and asking the questions that are deep within their own heart.
  1. One of those intelligences did indeed become Jesus Christ. He already innately possessed the qualities of being “more intelligent than they all” and being foreknown by God the Father to have the personal will to follow Him in every way and to have the greatest love capacity of any spirit child. We don’t know much about intelligences other than this about Jesus Christ, and that intelligences always existed–whether inside of this universe, or outside of it, I don’t know. If I were using other words to describe what an intelligence is, it makes sense to me to say it is the essence of a person’s will, and could be described as their individual “light” capacity, their intuitive “light”.
  2. As I noted in (1), the scriptures don’t give an answer to that question, and I think it is for good reason and ultimately for our blessing so that we focus on the Savior and don’t get distracted off onto a tangent. (But it certainly could be so, and it would be fine to pray about that question and seek an answer if the person has the question in mind and just can’t let it be without seeking an answer.)
So those are my thoughts on these questions. Have a peaceful, blessed day.
 
Parker, nothing you have said is supported by Scriptures.

Let me tell you why there would be no prophets after Christ. Because Jesus knew. He knew that there would be an onslaught of Joseph Smiths, Ellen Whites, Mohammeds, James Jones, etc. Each claiming to be visited by heavenly beings, each claiming to know what the Bible REALLY says, some claiming extra scriptures…

He KNEW that. He knew that those afore-mentioned false prophets would confuse even the most intelligent of his children…like you…to follow them. he warned us of them…He warned us of Joseph Smith et al when he spoke about wolves in sheep’s clothing. You want accuracy of the Bible? Jesus warned us of wolves IN SHEEP’S clothing…and what did Joseph say as he rode off to Carthage? He called himself A LAMB. See? Jesus got it right.

There are no other Gods. The Father TELLS us this when he says there are no other gods. Parker, God does not lie. Jesus does not lie. For the LDS to be true, God and Jesus must be liars.

Come home, Brother Parker
 
RebeccaJ,

I knew you don’t believe those manuals. I do. The manual cited scriptures, and the teacher using the manual would be expected to use the scriptures to amplify the lesson. The manual gives the “basics”–not every word that is expected to be used during the course of a lesson.

During the course of a lesson using that manual, as the lesson outline shows they would discuss the calling of the twelve disciples among the Nephites and Lamanites when Christ visited that small Nephite/Lamanite group He visited and called twelve “disciples” and gave them authority to minister among the Nephites and Lamanites, and taught them that the law of sacrifice had been fulfilled in Him.

The lesson discussion would thus talk about the “Twelve Apostles” of our day, and the Twelve Apostles called by Jesus, plus the apostles such as Paul who were called after the original twelve. If the teacher has been paying attention to the recent emphasis on counsels, then he or she would probably discuss the importance of the Council of the Twelve Apostles and their role in giving unique perspectives and insights to the prophet.

That lesson used a plural noun several times when talking about “leaders” or “the disciples”. It is an understood thing that the leaders counsel together. It didn’t have to be stated explicitly, because it is a known thing within the church, and has been emphasized all the more in recent years.
That’s a nice story about what you would teach but it isn’t what your manual teaches. Also, how can you believe this stuff? Makes my skin crawl just reading it.
 
…It may have been that God the Father was a Son before He was a Father–I don’t know, and the scriptures don’t say…
Actually OT and NT have a lot to say about how many other gods there are, like this bit from Isaiah:
“This is what the LORD says— Israel’s King and Redeemer, the LORD Almighty:
I am the first and I am the last; apart from me there is no God.
A is not non-A.
 
Actually OT and NT have a lot to say about how many other gods there are, like this bit from Isaiah:

A is not non-A.
That also confirms that when Jesus says that He and the Father are One, He is speaking literally, because there is no other God. They’re not separate. So, it follows that the Holy Ghost must also One with Them, as was indicated at the Baptism of Jesus, when all Three were clearly present.
 
That also confirms that when Jesus says that He and the Father are One, He is speaking literally, because there is no other God. They’re not separate. So, it follows that the Holy Ghost must also One with Them, as was indicated at the Baptism of Jesus, when all Three were clearly present.
And Jesus reprises Isiah in Revelation: “I am alpha and omega…”
 
Parker, nothing you have said is supported by Scriptures.

Let me tell you why there would be no prophets after Christ. Because Jesus knew. He knew that there would be an onslaught of Joseph Smiths, Ellen Whites, Mohammeds, James Jones, etc. Each claiming to be visited by heavenly beings, each claiming to know what the Bible REALLY says, some claiming extra scriptures…

He KNEW that. He knew that those afore-mentioned false prophets would confuse even the most intelligent of his children…like you…to follow them. he warned us of them…He warned us of Joseph Smith et al when he spoke about wolves in sheep’s clothing. You want accuracy of the Bible? Jesus warned us of wolves IN SHEEP’S clothing…and what did Joseph say as he rode off to Carthage? He called himself A LAMB. See? Jesus got it right.

There are no other Gods. The Father TELLS us this when he says there are no other gods. Parker, God does not lie. Jesus does not lie. For the LDS to be true, God and Jesus must be liars.

Come home, Brother Parker
Amen brother! :crossrc:
 
Parker, nothing you have said is supported by Scriptures.

Let me tell you why there would be no prophets after Christ. Because Jesus knew. He knew that there would be an onslaught of Joseph Smiths, Ellen Whites, Mohammeds, James Jones, etc. Each claiming to be visited by heavenly beings, each claiming to know what the Bible REALLY says, some claiming extra scriptures…

He KNEW that. He knew that those afore-mentioned false prophets would confuse even the most intelligent of his children…like you…to follow them. he warned us of them…He warned us of Joseph Smith et al when he spoke about wolves in sheep’s clothing. You want accuracy of the Bible? Jesus warned us of wolves IN SHEEP’S clothing…and what did Joseph say as he rode off to Carthage? He called himself A LAMB. See? Jesus got it right.

There are no other Gods. The Father TELLS us this when he says there are no other gods. Parker, God does not lie. Jesus does not lie. For the LDS to be true, God and Jesus must be liars.

Come home, Brother Parker
Well said!
 
Actually OT and NT have a lot to say about how many other gods there are, like this bit from Isaiah:

A is not non-A.
JHow,

I suppose that we all love Isaiah and all the prophecies that are given there, including that the house of Israel will be gathered from their long dispersion during the latter days.

Isaiah was inspired to write what he wrote, and to say the words of Jesus Christ, the one and only Savior and the one and only Rock of Israel and Rock of salvation.

If the Trinity doctrine were true, Jesus would most surely have used the word and taught the doctrine exactly as it appears in the Nicene creed–but He didn’t do that. Instead, He allowed the Jewish leaders to take what they knew from the Old Testament and reject Him as the Savior and the God of Israel, their King. Instead also, He taught them to pray to Father in Heaven, in the name of Jesus Christ. He introduced that teaching even though they were familiar with praying, and did pray.

He didn’t teach the Trinity doctrine. He did teach that He and His Father are One, so They are indeed One God. He also prayed that His followers can be one with Them, very specifically and in the same instance when He said that He and His Father are One.

So there is the difference. Latter-day Saints pray to Father in Heaven, in the name of Jesus Christ, and believe and know that They are One God, and that Jesus taught specifically to pray to Father in Heaven, in the name of Jesus Christ. Latter-day Saints also understand that Jesus was praying that His followers would be able, through His atoning grace (saying His mighty, High Priestly intercessory prayer just before taking upon Himself the sins of the world and thus atoning for the sins of all mankind on condition of personal repentance), to be one with Them. It is a prayer we are not afraid to understand literally, and are aware that it takes great faith to believe literally in Jesus’ divine commission to bring us to God with the power to become one with Them. But we don’t fear that divine commission He received and carried out–we have faith in His truthfulness, and in His power to do what He was sent to earth to do.
 
JHow,

If the Trinity doctrine were true, Jesus would most surely have used the word and taught the doctrine exactly as it appears in the Nicene creed–but He didn’t do that.

Really? The your Church is false because Jesus never used the word “Quorum” or “First Presidency”

He didn’t teach the Trinity doctrine.

Actually, he did. And so did Joseph Smith in the early part of his morphing doctrine.
 
JHow,

I suppose that we all love Isaiah and all the prophecies that are given there, including that the house of Israel will be gathered from their long dispersion during the latter days.

Isaiah was inspired to write what he wrote, and to say the words of Jesus Christ, the one and only Savior and the one and only Rock of Israel and Rock of salvation.
That prophecy means that the House of Israel (the Jews) will eventually be converted, and accept Jesus as the Messiah, in the last days. It has very little to do with the nation of Israel being reinstated as a worldly government, as so many people erroneously believe. It has much more to do with a spiritual gathering together of the House of Israel under the Messiah, within His Church. It was already partly fulfilled by the coming of Jesus into the world as the Messiah, even though it hasn’t been completely fulfilled, yet. It will happen, eventually, because God said it would. Only He knows exactly when that will happen.

God is only concerned with the condition of our souls, not with our bodies or our earthly governments, so thinking that any government entity is important to Him, is a gross misunderstanding of His purpose in sending us the Messiah. Jesus came into this world to save souls from the effects of sin, and to reconcile mankind with God, after being separated from Him for so long, due to the sin of Adam and Eve. Jesus died for us so we could, once again, enter the Gates of Heaven and enjoy eternal life, being in the presence of God, forever. After living our earthly lives by following the doctrines of Jesus, and suffering all the pains of this life with love for God, as well as for the others that He places all around us, we will be made worthy to receive our Heavenly reward.

Jesus said that His Kingdom is “not of this world”. It’s the spiritual Kingdom of Heaven, where He reigns as King on His Eternal Throne. The true representative of His Heavenly Kingdom on earth, is the Church that He established on Peter. Jesus taught the Apostles, and all of His followers, that while they would live in the world, they should not to be a part of this world. Our true home is in Heaven. We’re only here on earth for a little while, but when this life is over, we’ll live as we were always meant to live, in Heaven with God, forever. That’s our final goal in life.
 
Quote:
Originally Posted by ParkerD
JHow,
If the Trinity doctrine were true, Jesus would most surely have used the word and taught the doctrine exactly as it appears in the Nicene creed–but He didn’t do that.
Wrong! Where does Jesus ever say: Bible? So I guess using your standard,the Bible is not true since Jesus never uses the term.
He didn’t teach the Trinity doctrine.
Wrong again! He sure did,problem is that Mormons are to carnal to ever comprehend the Triune God. I suggest you read 1 Cor: 2:6-16:

6 However, we speak wisdom among those who are mature, yet not the wisdom of this age, nor of the rulers of this age, who are coming to nothing. 7 But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, the hidden wisdom which God ordained before the ages for our glory, 8 which none of the rulers of this age knew; for had they known, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.

9 But as it is written:

“Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,
Nor have entered into the heart of man
The things which God has prepared for those who love Him.”[c]

10 But God has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God. 12 Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we might know the things that have been freely given to us by God.

13 These things we also speak, not in words which man’s wisdom teaches but which the Holy[d] Spirit teaches, comparing spiritual things with spiritual. 14 But the natural man does not receive the things of the Spirit of God, for they are foolishness to him; nor can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned. 15 But he who is spiritual judges all things, yet he himself is rightly judged by no one. 16 For “who has known the mind of the Lord that he may instruct Him?”[e] But we have the mind of Christ.
 
Posts 230 and 231 are excellent answers…again we have to look to the True Interpreter…the Holy Spirit…Who guides the Church through its Teaching Magesterium.
 
If the Trinity doctrine were true, Jesus would most surely have used the word and taught the doctrine exactly as it appears in the Nicene creed–but He didn’t do that. Instead, He allowed the Jewish leaders to take what they knew from the Old Testament and reject Him as the Savior and the God of Israel, their King. Instead also, He taught them to pray to Father in Heaven, in the name of Jesus Christ. He introduced that teaching even though they were familiar with praying, and did pray.

He didn’t teach the Trinity doctrine. He did teach that He and His Father are One, so They are indeed One God. He also prayed that His followers can be one with Them, very specifically and in the same instance when He said that He and His Father are One.
Jesus was never meant to reign over the Jews as a king on earth. He came to save them from their sins. Their mistake was due to a misinterpretation of scriptures about the Messiah. He was meant to be their spiritual Savior and Heavenly King, from the very beginning. But, due to their carnal nature and way of thinking, they thought He’d come to save them from their earthly enemies, by destroying them.

Jesus did teach the mystery of the Trinity to the Apostles, but even they had a hard time understanding it. There are also references in the Bible, even if that term isn’t used.
[1 John 5:] [6] This is he that came by water and blood, Jesus Christ: not by water only, but by water and blood. And it is the Spirit which testifieth, that Christ is the truth. [7] **And there are three who give testimony in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost. And these three are one.**Just because Joseph Smith couldn’t understand that theological concept, or accept the fact that those Three could really be One God, doesn’t mean that he was correct in his assumption that They are only One ‘in purpose’. His concept is not of Him being one ‘god’, but three separate ‘gods’, which is classic polytheism, even though LDS always deny that fact. He was wrong because there is only One God, and He is a Holy Trinity.

St. John even said that if all of the things that Jesus said and did were to be written, that the world could never hold all of those books. He taught them much more than was included in the New Testament scriptures. That’s what the Deposit of Faith, and the Holy Tradition of the Church, are all about. Many of those other teachings can only be found there, in the Catholic Church.

As to the part of your comments that I’ve placed in bold, Jesus never said anything like that.
[Matthew 6:] [8] Be not you therefore like to them, for your Father knoweth what is needful for you, before you ask him. [9] Thus therefore shall you pray: Our Father who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name. [10] Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.

[11] Give us this day our supersubstantial bread*. [12] And forgive us our debts, as we also forgive our debtors. [13] And lead us not into temptation. But deliver us from evil. Amen.*Note: The “supersubstantial bread” mentioned in His prayer refers to the Holy Eucharist that Jesus encourages us to receive, daily, and not just once a week, or occasionally. The Douay-Rheims originally translated it this way, even though most other Bibles only include the word “bread”, which might seem to only refer to asking for our earthly sustenance.

Jesus never said that we should only pray to the Father, nor did He ever say that we should only pray in His name. He just gave us one example of how we should pray. Since He is God, there’s no reason not pray to Jesus. In fact, in the same epistle of John, he makes it clear that we should pray to Jesus, Himself.[1 John 5:] [11] And this is the testimony, that God hath given to us eternal life. And this life is in his Son. [12] He that hath the Son, hath life. He that hath not the Son, hath not life. [13] These things I write to you, that you may know that you have eternal life, you who believe in the name of the Son of God. [14] And this is the confidence which we have towards him: That, whatsoever we shall ask according to his will, he heareth us. [15] And we know that he heareth us whatsoever we ask: we know that we have the petitions which we request of him. I don’t think there can be any doubt that John was telling us that we also can, and should, pray directly to Jesus for whatever we need. He will always hear our prayers.
So there is the difference. Latter-day Saints pray to Father in Heaven, in the name of Jesus Christ, and believe and know that They are One God, and that Jesus taught specifically to pray to Father in Heaven, in the name of Jesus Christ. Latter-day Saints also understand that Jesus was praying that His followers would be able, through His atoning grace (saying His mighty, High Priestly intercessory prayer just before taking upon Himself the sins of the world and thus atoning for the sins of all mankind on condition of personal repentance), to be one with Them. It is a prayer we are not afraid to understand literally, and are aware that it takes great faith to believe literally in Jesus’ divine commission to bring us to God with the power to become one with Them. But we don’t fear that divine commission He received and carried out–we have faith in His truthfulness, and in His power to do what He was sent to earth to do.
Being one with God is to share in His eternal life, in Heaven, where we will all enjoy His company, together with our family and friends, as well as all of the angels and Saints. There’s nothing more that we would ever need to be completely happy, forever.
 
Posts 230 and 231 are excellent answers…again we have to look to the True Interpreter…the Holy Spirit…Who guides the Church through its Teaching Magesterium.
👍

Exactly Kathleen! Precisely why Jesus promised to send the Advocate to the Apostles & His Church or else it was a big fat lie.
 
If the Trinity doctrine were true, Jesus would most surely have used the word and taught the doctrine exactly as it appears in the Nicene creed–but He didn’t do that. Instead, He allowed the Jewish leaders to take what they knew from the Old Testament and reject Him as the Savior and the God of Israel, their King. Instead also, He taught them to pray to Father in Heaven, in the name of Jesus Christ. He introduced that teaching even though they were familiar with praying, and did pray.

He didn’t teach the Trinity doctrine. He did teach that He and His Father are One, so They are indeed One God. He also prayed that His followers can be one with Them, very specifically and in the same instance when He said that He and His Father are One.
At the risk of jumping on the band wagon here, please also demonstrate where Jesus taught any uniquely Mormon doctrine; the eternal regression of gods, co-eternal intelligences and matter, that a woman must be sealed to a husband in the temple in order to attain the celestial kingdom, etc., etc.?
So there is the difference. Latter-day Saints pray to Father in Heaven, in the name of Jesus Christ, and believe and know that They are One God
Sorry, but this is not what you believe. You do not believe that they are “One God”, but rather three God’s united in one purpose. It is very frustrating that you will not just plainly state what you really believe rather then trying to find language to cover up what you really believe. It is nothing but camouflage. I’m sorry, but how many times do we have to hear this and cover the same ground over and over and over?
 
At the risk of jumping on the band wagon here, please also demonstrate where Jesus taught any uniquely Mormon doctrine; the eternal regression of gods, co-eternal intelligences and matter, that a woman must be sealed to a husband in the temple in order to attain the celestial kingdom, etc., etc.?

Sorry, but this is not what you believe. You do not believe that they are “One God”, but rather three God’s united in one purpose. It is very frustrating that you will not just plainly state what you really believe rather then trying to find language to cover up what you really believe. It is nothing but camouflage. I’m sorry, but how many times do we have to hear this and cover the same ground over and over and over?
There are no LDS doctrines taught by Jesus. Not that god was once man, not that adam was God, not plural marriage, not the Word of Wisdom, not that there should be 15 apostles, not that there should elder’s quorums, not that there should be a first presidency, not that you should baptize for dead people, marry dead people, have odd temple ceremonies where you have blood oaths and women pledge to obey men, not temple ceremonies where you have secret handshakes and words or be pulled thru a curtain, or that He was so weak He could not keep his own Church going, or that you should wear special underwear with special symbols…

and I could go on and on
 
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