Do Lutherans save themselves?

[ltwin]

Protestants: we are all sinners, due to Adam’s sin.

We are all participants in original sin through Adam, and if we live long enough all of us will commit sin. However, that doesn’t mean we are all essentially evil. We were created by God in his image, and he called his creation good.

Because of original sin, there is no part of man that is not touched by sin. That is why we cannot justify ourselves. Any attempt we make would be marred by sin and therefore unable to meet God’s standard of holiness and purity.

That is different from saying that we are all “essentially evil.” I don’t think I’m an evil person. I am human and commit sins of weakness and yes even sins against conscience and I make mistakes all the time, but I don’t think I’m as evil as I could be.

 

[JonNC]

But in a sense it seems so.

No. In fact it is the polar opposite of grace alone through faith alone, at least from a Lutheran perspective.

God offers us grace, we accept. The acceptance saves. One can choose, helped by grace to accept the offer. But without grace we cannot do any metritorious act, so grace is necessary for us to choose to do good, i.e. accept grace, especially if one holds people are essentially evil.

God offers grace. We receive it. Or, we reject it.
Gifts, typically, are received. It is a rather passive understanding.

 

[AugustTherese]

the Lutheran Divine Service is essentially the Roman Mass from before Council of Trent, with changes to the prayers said concerning the Sacrament. The Lutheran order of service has essentially remained unchanged since the Reformation, making it even older than the modern Roman Catholic Mass.

What makes the Holy Mass what it is, Luther rejected, i.e. the Canon of the Mass.

Without the sacrifice of the Mass, you are left with a ‘divine service’, a mere Bible study, or a devotional exercise.

Where do you think the word ‘Mass’ comes from and why?

 

[steido01]

Hey, buddy. Let’s talk about your ignorance of language for a minute.
“Divine Service” is the Anglicization of the German Gottesdienst, which quite literally means “God’s Service.” It’s what German Christians have called the “Mass” for as long as they’ve been speaking German. It is a more correct and respectful name for the synonymous event known by the colloquialism “Mass,” which actually has its origins in the Latin dismissal “Ite, missa est.” or “Go, y’all are dismissed.”
To put it simply, the word “Mass” began as the crude commonspeak way of saying “Let’s get out of here and get some breakfast because that priest took forever and I’m not staying for the last hymn.”

Now let’s talk about your ignorance of Lutheranism for a minute.
Many Lutherans still call the Divine Service “Mass,” especially in Europe. That’s for good reason because “Mass” is the word used by the Lutheran Reformers to describe what Lutherans take part in on Sunday mornings. In fact, the celebration of the Mass --that is, the receiving of Christ’s Body and Blood together with all the church militant and triumphant as Heaven opens and Christ and Calvary and Infinity converge at the altar rail-- is the pinnacle of Lutheran worship. The Lutheran Confessions mention “Mass” repeatedly. There’s even an entire Article of Lutheran belief which demands defense of the Mass:

“At the outset we must again make the preliminary statement that we do not abolish the Mass, but religiously maintain and defend it. For among us masses are celebrated every Lord’s Day and on the other festivals, in which the Sacrament is offered to those who wish to use it, after they have been examined and absolved. And the usual public ceremonies are observed, the series of lessons, of prayers, vestments, and other like things.”

The Lutherans had to repeat this point because some Roman Catholics had decried the Lutheran Mass as ‘fake’ because the Lutherans had begun celebrating it in German, the language of the people, rather than Latin. Roman Catholics were also upset because Lutherans only held public Masses, not private ones that could be done for money.

Now lets talk about legitimate Roman Catholic objections to the Lutheran Divine Service.
Lutherans do not believe they can possibly add “my sacrifice and yours” to Christ’s once-and-for-all Sacrifice, while Roman Catholics do. Also, Roman Catholics claim that Lutherans don’t have real priestly orders; Lutherans obviously beg to differ. Catholics should obviously believe their communion’s teachings in this regard. But they should not expect others Christians to follow suit, as riding the High Horse of Triumphalism will just get them laughed at.

 

[Kei]

What is lacking in Christ’s sacrifice?
Our participation!
-a Catholic

 

[AugustTherese]

You claim:

the Lutheran Divine Service is essentially the Roman Mass from before Council of Trent, with changes to the prayers said concerning the Sacrament. The Lutheran order of service has essentially remained unchanged since the Reformation, making it even older than the modern Roman Catholic Mass

And, then go on to say:

To put it simply, the word “Mass” began as the crude commonspeak way of saying “Let’s get out of here and get some breakfast because that priest took forever and I’m not staying for the last hymn.”

You would never find such irreverence, even satirical, for a valid Holy Mass among those who truly understand and revere the liturgical elements and norms. Even the catechumens would have never dared joked about such thing. Is it because your services are centered around 20-30 minute sermons and a litany of hymns to make up for the most important element of the Holy Mass: the Sacrifice?

Lutherans do not believe they can possibly add “my sacrifice and yours” to Christ’s once-and-for-all Sacrifice, while Roman Catholics do

That’s very sad because Christ gave His Mystical Body the divine privilege to suffer with him (cf. Rom. 8:17) as a living sacrifice (cf. Rom. 12:1); not merely a sacrifice of praise or thanksgiving, but one of real, palpable suffering with Christ. Do you not pick up your daily cross in union with “Christ’s once-and-for-all Sacrifice”? Did not Christ will His disciples to have a share in His Redemptive mission throughout the ages?

because some Roman Catholics had decried the Lutheran Mass as ‘fake’ because the Lutherans had begun celebrating it in German

Hey, there are “some Roman Catholics” that have decried many things; but, I suggest you look deeper into this instead of hanging onto a hasty generalization of “some Roman Catholics”. I assure you, language was the least of concerns for the Catholic Church to publicly denounce the validity of a “Lutheran Mass”.

Roman Catholics claim that Lutherans don’t have real priestly orders; Lutherans obviously beg to differ.

Hey, I have no doubt that you have a share in Christ’s royal priesthood through your Baptism, as all laity do. However, how would you argue that Lutherans have valid Sacred Orders for the ministerial priesthood Our Lord bestows to men called to participate in His Eternal Priesthood?

 

[PJM]

Perhaps this is not the place to discuss my problems with Lutherans.

But I am a member here and not a subscriber to a Protestant discussion group.

I think they (Lutherans/Reformed) claim that we are justified, made righteous, by choosing to accept Jesus as our Savior. If this is so do we not do this ourselves by our own choice? In other words do we get to heaven by our own free will? I accept Calvinists believe in predestination and thus for them the issue does not arise.

+++++++++++++++++

I see in the www:

Simply put, justification is God’s act of pardoning the sinner and declares the sinner as righteous in His sight. This is possible through the sinner’s faith in Jesus Christ,(3)(4) who was punished for the sins of everyone so that anyone who believes in him will no longer suffer the consequences of sin.(5) In other words, Christ became the sinner in your place so that you will become righteous in the sight of God,(6) which makes you justified by God’s standards.

To to answer the question, “Can you be saved?” Yes, through faith in Jesus Christ and what He did.(7) Your justification or being made right with God is through the obedience of Christ(8), and not through your good works(9). Because of Christ’s obedience and death on the cross, your past, present, and future sins are forgiven, a

My friend this seems to ME, to beg another question.

Using this definition for GOD:
“GOD IS ALL GOOD THINGS PERFECTED” which while limited is nevertheless true;

Can [does] GOD expect Catholics to be saved with far more rigid and stringent requirements than what He’s willing to accept from Protestants?

God Bless you,

Patrick

 

[JonNC]

You would never find such irreverence, even satirical, for a valid Holy Mass among those who truly understand and revere the liturgical elements and norms. Even the catechumens would have never dared joked about such thing. Is it because your services are centered around 20-30 minute sermons and a litany of hymns to make up for the most important element of the Holy Mass: the Sacrifice?

So, history is irreverence?
Do you have evidence that Don is wrong?
He wasn’t making a joke. He was making a historical reference. He further followed up by explaining that Lutherans have always used the term Mass.

Don says that the mass is the pinnacle of Lutheran worship, and while the liturgy of the word, including homiletics is important, he is correct.

 

[AugustTherese]

So, history is irreverence?

Do you have evidence that Don is wrong?

He wasn’t making a joke

That’s history?!

Are you prepared to offer your historical insight? Was he referring to catechumens or the faithful?

 

[steido01]

If he thinks I’m joking, I’d like to see evidence to refute my easily-researchable facts. He asked for the meaning if the word. I gave the linguistic source.

As for the disrespect his fellow Roman Catholics give to the service by leaving prior to last hymn, that’s not my problem.

 

[AugustTherese]

If he thinks I’m joking, I’d like to see evidence to refute my easily-researchable facts. He asked for the meaning if the word. I gave the linguistic source.

As for the disrespect his fellow Roman Catholics give to the service by leaving prior to last hymn, that’s not my problem.

I’m not asking you for the mere Googled definition of the word ‘Mass’. I’m asking if you know why those words were used in the context of the Liturgy of the Word in contrast with the Liturgy of the Eucharist during Christian antiquity. Don’t worry about it.

 

[JonNC]

JonNC:

So, history is irreverence?

Do you have evidence that Don is wrong?

He wasn’t making a joke

That’s history?!

Are you prepared to offer your historical insight? Was he referring to catechumens or the faithful?

He was referring to the Latin. Go back and reread.
Again, do you have evidence that the information he provided is false?

 

[JonNC]

I’m not asking you for the mere Googled definition of the word ‘Mass’. I’m asking if you know why those words were used in the context of the Liturgy of the Word in contrast with the Liturgy of the Eucharist during Christian antiquity. Don’t worry about it.

So, you don’t have evidence. How do you know he googled?

 

[AugustTherese]

Sigh.

 

[JonNC]

Sigh.

Sigh all you want. Then go back and reread his post. There is NOTHING irreverent about what he said.
The question is; is he wrong?

 

[AugustTherese]

AugustTherese:

Sigh.

Sigh all you want. Then go back and reread his post. There is NOTHING irreverent about what he said.
The question is; is he wrong?

This is the question I asked:

Where do you think the word ‘Mass’ comes from and why?

I did not ask for a sole, rudimentary definition of the word and its linguistic roots. Providing the Latin does not answer my question of where the word came from and why. And, yes, I am sighing because he did not answer my question and your words are just confounding the entire point here, with all due respect.

The Liturgy of the Mass is so utterly exhaustive and rich in its history. development, and elements that merely telling me what the word ‘Mass’ means in Latin, completely misses the point of my question! And, when I am inquiring about the pedigree of the Holy Mass, for someone to answer:

the word “Mass” began as the crude commonspeak way of saying “Let’s get out of here and get some breakfast because that priest took forever and I’m not staying for the last hymn.”

…is IRREVERENT to what the Holy Mass is and what it offers! To allude that we get the Holy Mass from that line of thinking or that there is a correlation there to its development, demonstrates his lack of knowledge of the Holy Mass. And, his lack of knowledge comes to fruition when he takes that lack of knowledge out on others with the ad hominems of “your ignorance”.

 

[steido01]

If you’re offended by my observation of who cuts out early on mass, I think you miss who, exactly, is irreverent toward the mass.

You asked where the word “Mass” came from and why. I provided the historical source and the reason behind it. Those aren’t seriously disputed by anyone. Roman Catholic sources will corroborate, if you refuse to trust me. If you were asking for something other than the historical meaning, please clarify.

I’m not sure why you’ve taken offense at an attempt to educate you on the Lutheran understanding of the Mass. Calling you out on your ignorance isn’t ad hominem, it’s charitable. Why don’t you read the link I included above and temper your temper against Lutherans.

 

[AugustTherese]

If you’re offended by my observation of who cuts out early on mass, I think you miss who, exactly, is irreverent toward the mass

You could not offend me if you tried. And, I was not referring to the context of your quote, but rather to the lack of knowledge you displayed through not answering my question in the way I had asked.

You asked where the word “Mass” came from and why. I provided the historical source and the reason behind it.

No, you did not. You merely provided a definition of the word and a condescending paraphrase from a hasty generalization of seemingly lukewarm Catholics. I did not ask for a definition. Please, consider the deeper meaning and historical development of why we call the Holy Mass, the Holy Mass.

I’m not sure why you’ve taken offense at an attempt to educate you on the Lutheran understanding of the Mass

Again, I am not offended; please, stop putting words into my mouth, so to speak.

 

[NoelFitz]

Itwin, this is a brilliant answer for all Christians.

“Let’s get out of here and get some breakfast because that priest took forever and I’m not staying for the last hymn.”

steido01

To this we reply ‘Thank God’.

 

[NoelFitz]

I asked the original query in good faith.
I do not think it is appropriate here to score polemical points, or to wander off into a discussion of (relatively) slight differences between Lutherans and Catholics. The effort here should be to understand each other.

It has been asked if God requires higher standards for Catholics.

This is a fundamental problem for me, and might be studied in a new thread.

Catholics go to hell (if with clear knowledge and full consent):

1. They miss Mass on Sundays and holy days of obligation.
2. Do not receive Communion between Ash Wednesday and Trinity Sunday.
3. Receive Communion in the state of mortal sin.
4. Practice contraception.
5. Get divorced.
6. Do not believe dogmas, e.g. Assumption and Immaculate Conception.
   7 For Catholics any sin against the 6th and 9th commandments are grave matter. For others most actions, e.g. supporting abortion, may not be sinful, as there is no clear knowledge of sinfulness.

Catholics have two commandment against sex (6th and 9th in Catholic numbering), Jews and Protestants have one. This shows the excessive concentration (in the past ??) on sexual sin for Catholics.
For us Catholics an important thing is that Catholicism is the one, true Church, But others share in God’s mercy and grace.