JonNC
I agree. Perhaps the discussion could close now, or has this thread become a private dispute between you and AugustTherese?
Is it a private fight or can anyone join in?
Do Lutherans save themselves?
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I agree. Perhaps the discussion could close now, or has this thread become a private dispute between you and AugustTherese?
Is it a private fight or can anyone join in?
As I said early on, I’ve had to battle this kind of apologetics before. I don’t like it.
The fact is The history of the Reformation era sadly filled with harsh accusations in both directions. You’ll have to ask AugustTherese why it seemed important to interject it now.
That said, you seem to have an even tempered approach to apologetics, so of course your opinion is welcome.
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AugustTherese
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Where do you think “grace through faith, baptism and the other sacraments” come from, Scripture? The LCMS? No, these come from the Catholic Church! Just because a baptized Christian disagrees where these come from, does not negate where they actually come from.
The authority of binding and loosing was given to Saint Peter, i.e. the Bishop of Rome, in connection with the keys to the kingdom of heaven being given to him alone. Yeah, I would want to be in communion with him.
What “Church” do you speak of? What “bishops” do you speak of?
Did you not read my last post regarding Lumen Gentium?
Sorry, not buying your narrow triumphalist view.
The power of the keys was also given to the rest and to the Church as a whole
The One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church, which includes many not in communion with the pope.
Yes, I did. Now, are you ready to denounce Unam Sanctum?
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AugustTherese
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It’s not my view. I did not break away from the Church Christ founded and promulgate my own views like so many men have had the audacity to do in the last 500 years.
Those Apostles in communion with Saint Peter, of course. But the keys themselves were given only to Saint Peter!
By Holy Baptism, yes, you are correct. But, many do not have full communion with the One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church through schism and heresy.
I’d rather give up my life.
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Then please do not complain when other communions respond to that teaching.
The best we can do with those teachings is allow your communion and theirs (Lutherans) to resolve them. Clearly the leaders of both are able to dialogue despite it.
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AugustTherese
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I do not recall complaining about anything. I do recall you arbitrarily bringing that “teaching” up, for whatever reason, and imploring me to “denounce” it, for whatever reason. Although I would like our separated brethren to humbly accept these teachings, I am not going to lose sleep over how you or “other communions” respond to it. I have absolutely nothing to “complain” about!
You brought up, completely out of context, an ad hominem attack on a source I used that turned out to be accurate regarding presbyter ordination in the 1400’s. I merely responded in kind.
I was perfectly willing to denounce the use of the term “anti-Christ” regarding the office of the papacy. I asked that you do the same about the teaching in Unam Sanctum which is easily as offensive to many Christians. You chose not to.
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AugustTherese
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ad hominem: (of an argument or reaction) directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining
Could you explain to me how labeling your source as lacking credibility was an “attack” against you? Did I say you lacked credibility?
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Correct. You attacked the source,and indirectly the author of the source, instead of responding to the information provided, which turned out to be accurate
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AugustTherese
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Yep. Ad hominem …
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AugustTherese
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So, the source is a person with feelings?AugustTherese:
Yep. Ad hominem …
Has nothing to do with feelings. It has to do with attacking the source instead of the information presented. The source wasn’t me. The source was The Christian Cyclopedia, its authors and editors. You attacked the source.
The information was accurate. In short, presbyter ordination was a practice in the western Church prior to the Reformation era. The Evangelical Catholic (Lutheran) parishes employed it when the bishops refused to ordain priests for these parishes.
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AugustTherese
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I didn’t say it was. It was against the source and its authors
Presbyter ordination. The precedent had been set by theVatican, by at least two popes, that presbyter ordination was a valid method of ordination, an exception to the norm of ordination by bishops, but valid nonetheless.
Therefore, Lutherans believe that their priests are validly ordained, even if done via presbyter ordination
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AugustTherese
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But an ad hominem is directed at a person, not a source.
If I were to say, “@JonNC, you are not credible” - that would be an ad hominem.
And, for the sake of argument, let us say you’re right. Which Pope gave authority to Lutherans to use this “presbyter ordination”?
At least two popes allowed for presbyter ordination. Hence, one cannot say that ordinations not done by bishops are necessarily invalid, unless one is willing to argue that those popes were wrong.
Whether or not they gave permission to Lutherans is irrelevant. The pope doesn’t give permission to PNCC bishops to ordain, or EO bishops to ordain.
IOW, the pope only has jurisdiction over those churches and bishops in communion with him. And, Lutherans using presbyter ordination is not a novelty
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AugustTherese
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Again, that has been deemed as “debated” and speculated; hence “Theologians aren’t agreed on this question” and “This is sometimes questions” and “ut the genuineness of the concession is very doubtful”.
Absolutely not! You are arguing the use of the a supposed, non-agreed upon, questionable “presbyter ordination” that was granted by a Pope. Cannot anyone just claim valid ordination because of this “occurrence”, Lutheran or whatever new denomination?
This is a good and fair point. However, valid apostolic succession is what makes their ordinations valid. How does a Lutheran minister claim valid apostolic succession?
I have never heard of a Lutheran “priest”. How can a protestant pastor claim to be a priest when they do not sacrifice the living Body and Blood of Jesus Christ to the Father?
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The evidence is rather clear.
Again, the evidence is historically clear.
Some actually do. Others use the historic practice of presbyter ordination.
Then you haven’t played very close attention.
They celebrate the once for all sacrifice, through the verba and the power of the Holy Spirit
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