Do Lutherans save themselves?

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JonNC said:
Did you read the excerpt from the document?
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Yes! I was a Confessional Lutheran for 25 years! I know exactly what they confess to believe and disbelieve. But, I am asking you two very simple questions regarding the two elements of a sacrifice. Did you understand what I wrote? Did you agree or disagree?
 
AugustTherese said:
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JonNC:
Did you read the excerpt from the document?
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Yes! I was a Confessional Lutheran for 25 years! I know exactly what they confess to believe and disbelieve. But, I am asking you two very simple questions regarding the two elements of a sacrifice. Did you understand what I wrote? Did you agree or disagree?
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Good. Then you understand the difference in teachings regarding the nature of the sacrifice. That difference is irrelevant in terms of who uses the term priest and what the other side thinks of it.
 
JonNC said:
Good. Then you understand the difference in teachings regarding the nature of the sacrifice. That difference is irrelevant in terms of who uses the term priest and what the other side thinks of it.
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Great! Would you be so kind as to answer my questions now?
 
AugustTherese said:
Second, do you understand the nature and elements of an Old Testament sacrifice consisting of two parts; i.e. the killing of the victim, and then the offering up of the fruits of that victim? If so, or not, here is a verse that might help:
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Of course. …
 
JonNC said:
Of course. …
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Thank you! 🙂

Now, do we agree that the sacrifice of Jesus Christ on the cross was Him offering himself up in a bloody manner, once-and-for-all?
 
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JonNC said:
Yes. And that sacrifice is present when we celebrate His Supper
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Agreed! 🙂 That bloody sacrifice is made present by the invocation of the Holy Spirit, like you said earlier. Now, remember, there are two parts to a sacrifice in which you stated, “Of course”. So, we have the bloody oblation of the victim made present (Sacrifice on Calvary), and, we also have the offering of the Body and Blood in an unbloody manner, such as Aaron’s sons the priests did: “shall offer the blood”; not by re-killing or re-sacrificing in a bloody manner, but by after the the bloody sacrifice, you take the blood and offer it up.

Are you with me so far? Do you agree/disagree?
 
JonNC said:
Me? Yes. No problem
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Great! And, thank you for listening and being fair to my posts.

Now, I am sure we both agree that Jesus Christ is the Eternal High Priest because His one sacrifice is eternal. i.e. a High Priest needs something to sacrifice to be a High Priest. Well, what does Our Eternal High Priest continually offer to His Father? Does He not perpetually offer His living Body and Blood in the Heavenly Tabernacle, the Heavenly Liturgy? Does He not offer His Father His living Body and Blood (a living sacrifice cf. Romans 12:1), sourced from Calvary, in an unbloody manner?
 
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I wouldn’t argue that in a general sense. So far, nothing about this is contrary to the complaints lodged by the Lutherans at the Reformation. None of it speaks to private masses, ex opere operato, etc.
 
JonNC said:
I wouldn’t argue that in a general sense. So far, nothing about this is contrary to the complaints lodged by the Lutherans at the Reformation. None of it speaks to private masses, ex opere operato, etc.
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Is not the offering of the Eternal High Priest’s living Body and Blood to the Father propitiatory?
 
AugustTherese said:
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JonNC:
I wouldn’t argue that in a general sense. So far, nothing about this is contrary to the complaints lodged by the Lutherans at the Reformation. None of it speaks to private masses, ex opere operato, etc.
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Is not the offering of the Eternal High Priest’s living Body and Blood to the Father propitiatory?
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For those present, at least from a Lutheran perspective
 
AugustTherese said:
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JonNC:
For those present
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Hmmmm. It sounds like to me that you believe in the Sacrifice of the Mass, do you not?
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I believe that at the mass those present are in the presence of the once for all sacrifice of Christ. This is a miracle that happens through the power of the Holy Spirit. It is His sacrifice, oblation, satisfaction (as the 1928 BCP says) for the sins of the whole world.
In that sense, yes.
 
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JonNC said:
I believe that at the mass those present are in the presence of the one for all sacrifice of Christ. This is a miracle that happens through the power of the Holy Spirit. It is His sacrifice, oblation, satisfaction (as the 1928 BCP says) for the sins of the whole world.

In that sense, yes.
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But, do you believe in the unbloody offering of the Body and Blood of Our Lord?
 
AugustTherese said:
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JonNC:
I believe that at the mass those present are in the presence of the one for all sacrifice of Christ. This is a miracle that happens through the power of the Holy Spirit. It is His sacrifice, oblation, satisfaction (as the 1928 BCP says) for the sins of the whole world.

In that sense, yes.
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But, do you believe in the unbloody offering of the Body and Blood of Our Lord?
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That Christ offered Himself? Yes. Of course. This is not something we do, but that He did and does. That He brings His sacrifice present in our midst? Yes.
That this happens when the priest speaks the verba andby the Power of the Holy Spirit ( not any power in the priest himself), yes.
 
JonNC said:
That Christ offered Himself? Yes. Of course. This is not something we do, but that He did and does. That He brings His sacrifice present in our midst? Yes.

That this happens when the priest speaks the verba andby the Power of the Holy Spirit ( not any power in the priest himself), yes.
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Ah, okay. Now I understand what you mean. I’m so glad that you at least believe that much, of Christ’s sacrifice and the two elements of that sacrifice. 🙂

Does not Jesus Christ do this through His ministerial priests on earth? Of course, no priest can do this outside of Christ’s intercessory powers; “apart from me you can do nothing”. But, does not the Eternal Priest call and ordain ministerial priests to share in His Priesthood, especially in the re-presentation of the Sacrifice and oblation of the living Body and Blood?
 
AugustTherese said:
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JonNC:
That Christ offered Himself? Yes. Of course. This is not something we do, but that He did and does. That He brings His sacrifice present in our midst? Yes.

That this happens when the priest speaks the verba andby the Power of the Holy Spirit ( not any power in the priest himself), yes.
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Ah, okay. Now I understand what you mean. I’m so glad that you at least believe that much, of Christ’s sacrifice and the two elements of that sacrifice. 🙂

Does not Jesus Christ do this through His ministerial priests on earth? Of course, no priest can do this outside of Christ’s intercessory powers; “apart from me you can do nothing”. But, does not the Eternal Priest call and ordain ministerial priests to share in His Priesthood, especially in the re-presentation of the Sacrifice and oblation of the living Body and Blood?
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Yes. He uses the priest, called, and ordained by His Church. That is precisely why I’m not Lutheran any longer. The parish I was in violated this teaching, found in CA Article XIV, by allowing a seminarian to celebrate the sacraments of Confession and the Supper
 
JonNC said:
Yes. He uses the priest, called, and ordained by His Church. That is precisely why I’m not Lutheran any longer. The parish I was in violated this teaching, found in CA Article XIV, by allowing a seminarian to celebrate the sacraments of Confession and the Supper
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So, the only reason you are not Catholic is because of the Supreme Pontiff’s ‘universal jurisdiction’?
 
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