Do Lutherans save themselves?

[JonNC]

JonNC:

Yes. He uses the priest, called, and ordained by His Church. That is precisely why I’m not Lutheran any longer. The parish I was in violated this teaching, found in CA Article XIV, by allowing a seminarian to celebrate the sacraments of Confession and the Supper

So, the only reason you are not Catholic is because of the Supreme Pontiff’s ‘universal jurisdiction’?

Almost entirely.

 

[AugustTherese]

Almost entirely.

Understood. I honestly respect you coming this far on your faith journey. Most non-Catholics have a litany of Catholic doctrines they have difficulty with, yet you have just this one. I hope the Holy Spirit will reveal to your heart why we confess to believe in the supremacy of the Holy Father. Thanks for the friendly chats today, @JonNC!

 

[JonNC]

JonNC:

Almost entirely.

Understood. I honestly respect you coming this far on your faith journey. Most non-Catholics have a litany of Catholic doctrines they have difficulty with, yet you have just this one. I hope the Holy Spirit will reveal to your heart why we confess to believe in the supremacy of the Holy Father. Thanks for the friendly chats today, @JonNC!

Thanks. I pray the issue of papal supremacy is solved within the entirety of the Church Militant, to His glory.

 

[phil19034]

Lutherans are also not really Protestant, but reformed Catholics going back to the early Church of Augustine, not Thomas Aquinas…

ahhh, no. Lutherans are Protestants. Luther was the father of the Protestant Reformation (or better called the Protestant Revolution)

Protestants all have differing theology, history, etc; but they all have one thing in common: they do not have valid sacraments according to the Catholic & Orthodox Churches.

Anglicans are the closest Protestants to the Catholic Church, but that’s only in the “High Church.” Lutherans are the 2nd closest, but they do not have 7 sacraments - they only have 2 or 3 depending whether the individual Lutheran views Penance as a sacrament or not. Anglicans are the only Protestants who claim to have all 7 sacraments.

All Protestant groups either broke from the Catholic Church during the Reformation or broke from Protestant groups later.

 

[steido01]

Thanks, Jon. Reminds me of what the great Lutheran theologian Hermann Sasse wrote in his book This is My Body: Luther’s Contention for the Real Presence in the Sacrament of the Altar. Lest someone try to pass him off as obscure, the president of the LCMS quotes him regularly and recently posted the following snippet from the book, which is probably his most-used by Lutherans, next to maybe Letters to Lutheran Pastors:

“We must let the mass be a sacrament and a testament, and this is not and cannot be a sacrifice…We should therefore give special heed to this word ‘sacrifice’, that we do not presume to give God something in the sacrament when it is He who therein gives us all things…As St Paul says again in Hebrews 9: “He is ascended into heaven to be a mediator in the presence of God for us”…From these words we learn that we do not offer Christ as sacrifice, but Christ offers us. And in this way it is permissible, yea, profitable, to call the mass a sacrifice, not on its own account, but because we offer ourselves as a sacrifice along with Christ; that is, we lay ourselves on Christ by firm faith in His testament, and appear before God with our prayer, praise, and sacrifice only through Him and His mediation…If the mass were so understood and therefore called a sacrifice, it would be well.”

 

[steido01]

(I posted this earlier. Don’t expect it to be read and understood.)

 

[JonNC]

ahhh, no. Lutherans are Protestants. Luther was the father of the Protestant Reformation (or better called the Protestant Revolution)

In the original sense of Protestant, yes. They were responsible for the formal protest at the 2nd Diet of Speyer in 1529, which was a protest against the decision to limit religious liberty be civil authorities, much the same way the Catholic Church has protested against the HHS Mandate.

Protestants all have differing theology, history, etc; but they all have one thing in common: they do not have valid sacraments according to the Catholic & Orthodox Churches.

And that would be the Catholic view. Of course, some Orthodox question the validity of Catholic orders, too.

Anglicans are the closest Protestants to the Catholic Church, but that’s only in the “High Church.” Lutherans are the 2nd closest, but they do not have 7 sacraments - they only have 2 or 3 depending whether the individual Lutheran views Penance as a sacrament or not. Anglicans are the only Protestants who claim to have all 7 sacraments.

While generally true, Lutherans do not claim the othe 4 yo be sacraments based, not on their usefulness in the Church, but simply on a narrower definition of sacrament.
It is difficult to identify Anglicans as Protestant because they were not on the mainland and involved in the formal protest.

 

[phil19034]

It is difficult to identify Anglicans as Protestant because they were not on the mainland and involved in the formal protest.

Yes, the Anglicans joined late, but the low church Protestants during Henry VIII and most importantly during Queen Elizabeth II & King James were very much protestants.

 

[phil19034]

Of course, some Orthodox question the validity of Catholic orders, too.

Yes, but that’s a question that individual Orthodox have, not the Orthodox as an entire religion.

But with Protestants, there is no question: the Orthodox do not accept their sacraments. And while the Orthodox once questioned the Catholic Church regarding whether the Anglicans had valid Sacraments, they are now 100% in agreement with Catholics that Anglicans do not have valid sacraments.

God Bless

 

[JonNC]

Yes, the Anglicans joined late, but the low church Protestants during Henry VIII and most importantly during Queen Elizabeth II & King James were very much protestants.

I think it fair to say that some Anglicans share similar beliefs with a Reformed theology, and some Anglicans share certain beliefs with Lutherans, but there is not a Protestant Church, or Protestant theology. There are different communions that are grouped as Protestant, but that term is irrelevant in terms of doctrine

 

[phil19034]

but there is not a Protestant Church, or Protestant theology. There are different communions that are grouped as Protestant, but that term is irrelevant in terms of doctrine

I agree with you here

 

[JonNC]

Of course, some Orthodox question the validity of Catholic orders, too.

Yes, but that’s a question that individual Orthodox have, not the Orthodox as an entire religion.

But with Protestants, there is no question: the Orthodox do not accept their sacraments. And while the Orthodox once questioned the Catholic Church regarding whether the Anglicans had valid Sacraments, they are now 100% in agreement with Catholics that Anglicans do not have valid sacraments.

And that’s fine. Those communions that hold to ordination and the necessity of it, like Lutherans andAnglicans, generally are not influenced by that view.

 

[JonNC]

(I posted this earlier. Don’t expect it to be read and understood.)

Hopefully they’ll read it. I think much of Lutheran teaching in this area revolved around the abuses of that time. If Catholics read those writings, the differences become clear, but do fo the similarities, which I believe are greater

 

[NoelFitz]

And while the Orthodox once questioned the Catholic Church regarding whether the Anglicans had valid Sacraments, they are now 100% in agreement with Catholics that Anglicans do not have valid sacraments.

Phil 19034

I am surprised to hear Catholics do not consider Anglicans have valid sacraments. I had thought that then a Protestant converts to Catholicism he/she receives provisional baptism, since baptism can only be received once, and the original baptism may have been valid.

 

[JonNC]

I am surprised to hear Catholics do not consider Anglicans have valid sacraments.

Too broad a statement. Catholicism, AFAIK, holds that only two sacraments are valid in an Anglican setting (or most other western non catholic setting); Baptism and Marriage because they do not require an ordained priest.

 

[phil19034]

phil19034:

And while the Orthodox once questioned the Catholic Church regarding whether the Anglicans had valid Sacraments, they are now 100% in agreement with Catholics that Anglicans do not have valid sacraments.

Phil 19034

I am surprised to hear Catholics do not consider Anglicans have valid sacraments. I had thought that then a Protestant converts to Catholicism he/she receives provisional baptism, since baptism can only be received once, and the original baptism may have been valid.

Like @JonNC said - we typically accept Baptism and Marriage (as long as one spouse isn’t Catholic). In extraordinary situations Baptism doesn’t require a priest or deacon as long as the baptism is made in The Name of the Father, The Son, and The Holy Spirit. Marriage (in the Latin Church) is accepted because the bride & groom actually confer the sacrament onto themselves.

But all others are null. The phrase I used “valid sacraments” was referring to priestly sacraments - sacraments that require a deacon, priest and/or bishop.

 

[AugustTherese]

“We must let the mass be a sacrament and a testament, and this is not and cannot be a sacrifice…We should therefore give special heed to this word ‘sacrifice’, that we do not presume to give God something in the sacrament when it is He who therein gives us all things…As St Paul says again in Hebrews 9: “He is ascended into heaven to be a mediator in the presence of God for us”…From these words we learn that we do not offer Christ as sacrifice, but Christ offers us. And in this way it is permissible, yea, profitable, to call the mass a sacrifice, not on its own account, but because we offer ourselves as a sacrifice along with Christ; that is, we lay ourselves on Christ by firm faith in His testament, and appear before God with our prayer, praise, and sacrifice only through Him and His mediation…If the mass were so understood and therefore called a sacrifice, it would be well.”

First, he states that “we do not presume to give God something in the sacrament”, and then goes on to declare, “we offer ourselves as a sacrifice…with our prayer, praise, and sacrifice”.

I want to know which is it. Do we not ‘give God something’, or do we give God ‘ourselves as a sacrifice’?

Or, is he alluding that we cannot sacrifice anything to God outside of attaching our prayer, praise, and sacrifice with, through, and in the shared mediation of Christ?

 

[0104]

You need to watch how you phrase things. 2 Cor 5:21 He made Him who knew NO SIN to become sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. Calvinism are wrong about certain things. Luther when he nailed his thesis on the church in Germany. He had a couple of things that he didn’t like about the church. He didn’t believe in the magisterium OR indulgences. But he still believed in the virginity of Mary and even Martin Luther affirmed the doctrine, and confirmed the early church fathers unanimously taught the real presence:
Luther quote " of all the Fathers, as many as you can name, not one has ever spoken about the sacraments as these fanatics do. None of them uses such an expression as, it is simply Bread and Wine, or Christ’s body and blood or not present. Yet this subject is so frequently discuss by them, it is impossible that they should not at some time have let slip such an expression as, it is simply bread or not that the body of Christ is physically present, or the like, since they are greatly concerned not to mislead the people actually, they simply proceed to speak as if no one doubted that Christ’s body and blood or present. Certainly among so many fathers and so many writings a negative argument should have turned up at least once, as happens in other articles but actually they all stand uniformly and consistently on the affirmative side.

Martin Luther, John Calvin and Ulrich Zwingli also believed in Mary as the mother of God.

Martin Luther: in this work wherreby she was made the mother of God, so many and such good things were given her that no one can grasp them. Not only was Mary the mother of him who is born in Bethlehem, but of him who, before the world, was eternally born of the father, a mother in time and at the same time man and God.
John Calvin: it cannot be deny that God in choosing and designing Mary to be the mother of his son, granted her the highest honor. Elizabeth called Mary Mother of the Lord, because the unity of the person in the two Natures of Christ was such that she could have said that the Mortal man engendered in the womb of Mary was at the same time the Eternal God.
Ulrich Zwingli: it was given to her what belongs to no creature, that in the flesh she should bring forth the son of God.

Protestants today absolutely refuse Catholic’s and the early reformers teachings on the Eucharist and Mary.

In 1st Cor 12:26 31 it tell how God has designed a hierarchy to forgive sins. If ( ONE ) part suffers, all the parts suffer with it if one part is honored,all the parts share it’s joy.
Now you are Christ’s body, and individually parts of it.
Some people God has has DESIGNATED in the church to be, first, apostle; second, prophets; third teachers; then , mighty deeds; then, gifts of healing, assistance, administration, and varieties of tongues.
Are ALL apostles? Are ALL prophets? Are ALL teachers,? Do ALL work mighty deeds?
Do all have gifts of healing? Do all speak in tongues? Do all interpret?
Strive eagerly for the greatest spiritual gifts. But I shall show you a still more excellent way.

If we are Catholic we must believe what the Church teaches! God bless

 

[JonNC]

Or, is he alluding that we cannot sacrifice anything to God outside of attaching our prayer, praise, and sacrifice with, through, and in the shared mediation of Christ?

I like the way the 1928 BCP speaks of this:
And here we offer and present unto thee, O Lord, our selves, our souls and bodies, to be a reasonable, holy, and living sacrifice unto thee; humbly beseeching thee, that we, and all others who shall be partakers of this Holy Communion, may worthily receive the most precious Body and Blood of thy Son Jesus Christ, be filled with thy grace and heavenly benediction, and made one body with him, that he may dwell in us, and we in him. And although we are unworthy, through our manifold sins, to offer unto thee any sacrifice; yet we beseech thee to accept this our bounden duty and service; not weighing our merits, but pardoning our offences, through Jesus Christ our Lord; by whom, and with whom, in the unity of the Holy Ghost, all honour and glory be unto thee, O Father Almighty, world without end. Amen.

 

[GKMotley]

Sounds familiar.