Do Lutherans think Catholics actually believe this, or do most of them know an actual devout Catholic?

[rose_kelly]

I don’t know if this is allowed on the forum, so slap my wrist if it isn’t, but would any of the participants in this thread consider making a reasoned comment in the comments section of this video? I’m no fan of Pastor Fisk’s explication of Catholicism on a good day, but usually it’s not quite so blatantly false and flirtatious with actual anti-Catholicism. It makes me wonder if all the LCMS teaches about Catholicism comes from 500-year-old polemics and total lack of acquaintance with any actual catechized Catholics. Also, do LCMS seminaries not delve too deeply into Church history prior to Luther or the Waldensians or favorable quotes from Saint Augustine? I’ll grant it’s about a three-minute-long newsflash, but all that says to me is that’s the wrong medium to answer the question he was asked.

youtu.be/NOaiiOKn_TM

Is that preacher for real?
How would the Lutherans feel if a Catholic priest went on Youtube attacking their church in that manner?
I hope I never see or hear one our own clergy doing so, because if I ever did (whichever religion was being vilified) I would be disgusted.

 

[steido01]

Is that preacher for real?
How would the Lutherans feel if a Catholic priest went on Youtube attacking the Lutheran church in that manner?
I hope I never see or hear one our own clergy doing so, because if I ever did (whichever religion was being vilified) I would be disgusted.

It happens all the time. Even, very, very, very rarely, on these boards.

A nicer version of what Pr. Fisk was saying might be here.

If you’re looking for better and more in-depth comparison of Lutheranism to Roman Catholicism from a Lutheran perspective, I *highly *recommend the following link, which features the LCMS Director of Worship Pr. Will Weedon, who also serves as chaplain at the LCMS’s headquarters in St. Louis:
Lutheranism & Roman Catholicism

 

[Peter_J]

Is that preacher for real?
How would the Lutherans feel if a Catholic priest went on Youtube attacking their church in that manner?
I hope I never see or hear one our own clergy doing so, because if I ever did (whichever religion was being vilified) I would be disgusted.

Exactly, Rose. It’s not like one side or the other has a free pass to be polemical/rude/triumphalistic/whatever.

It happens all the time. Even, very, very, very rarely, on these boards.

A nicer version of what Pr. Fisk was saying might be here.

If you’re looking for better and more in-depth comparison of Lutheranism to Roman Catholicism from a Lutheran perspective, I *highly *recommend the following link, which features the LCMS Director of Worship Pr. Will Weedon, who also serves as chaplain at the LCMS’s headquarters in St. Louis:
Lutheranism & Roman Catholicism

Thank you for posting that.

Unfortunately, it has been my experience that the “nicer” (to use your word) arguments/explanations tend to receive far less attention. (Just consider how much attention “fundamentalist” Protestant apologists like Jack Chick receive – just as, conversely, Protestants tend to gravitate toward the writings of “traditionalist” Catholic apologists. :ehh

 

[Peter_J]

We do disagree on points of doctrine, and I think that’s Pastor Fisk’s point. Some of the Ecumenical movements would have us sign worthless agreements that state, more or less, that we agree to disagree. This is a disservice to true unity.

Instead, Pastor Fisk notes the doctrinal points where we disagree. That’s our greatest asset in working together – honesty. On causes we share, like Life and Family, we work together. But where we disagree, we won’t sign silly Ecumenical documents. Confessional Lutherans are honest about our beliefs, just as most Traditional Catholics are.

What about those who *aren’t *traditionalists? That’s seriously insulting to 90-some-percent of Catholics (clergy and faithful alike) in the world.

 

[Vic_Taltrees_UK]

As a matter of interest. Why can you not see youtube? If you are in the UK, you can certainly see it.

Thank you all for the added detail!

 

[Peter_J]

So the question in the youtube title should really be, Are Lutherans Catholic?

I don’t want to say “You’re behind the times” or anything like that … but may I point out that, for most people on this forum, that isn’t even a question.

 

[rose_kelly]

It happens all the time. Even, very, very, very rarely, on these boards.

A nicer version of what Pr. Fisk was saying might be here.

If you’re looking for better and more in-depth comparison of Lutheranism to Roman Catholicism from a Lutheran perspective, I *highly *recommend the following link, which features the LCMS Director of Worship Pr. Will Weedon, who also serves as chaplain at the LCMS’s headquarters in St. Louis:
Lutheranism & Roman Catholicism

I would never assume all preachers were the same, but thanks for the links. Out of curiosity I’ll have a look later because I know very little about Lutheranism doctrine.

 

[Peter_J]

Originally Posted by steido01
We do disagree on points of doctrine, and I think that’s Pastor Fisk’s point. Some of the Ecumenical movements would have us sign worthless agreements that state, more or less, that we agree to disagree. This is a disservice to true unity.

P.S. Needless to say (unless it isn’t) when I say that I take offense at your likening Confessional Lutherans to “Traditional Catholics” (presumably making the rest of Catholicism like the ELCA) I’m assuming that you’re counting as “Traditional Catholics” only the small fraction of Catholics who are usually described in that way. (I don’t want to rehash the recent thread about what “traditionalist” means.) If you’re using an alternate meaning of the phrase, that is of course a different matter.

 

[steido01]

P.S. Needless to say (unless it isn’t) when I say that I take offense at your likening Confessional Lutherans to “Traditional Catholics” (presumably making the rest of Catholicism like the ELCA) I’m assuming that you’re counting as “Traditional Catholics” only the small fraction of Catholics who are usually described in that way. (I don’t want to rehash the recent thread about what “traditionalist” means.) If you’re using an alternate meaning of the phrase, that is of course a different matter.

No offense intended, I assure you. I should’ve said instead, “Non-Cafeteria Catholics.” Mea culpa!

 

[rose_kelly]

Exactly, Rose. It’s not like one side or the other has a free pass to be polemical/rude/triumphalistic/whatever.

No it doesn’t, there’s no need for it. We can disagree on faith issues without promoting bigotry.
Now is the time to move on from the past in unity, and that means tolerating each other’s differences.

 

[betsybug354]

I am former LCMS. At least in my own experience, my Lutheran pastors tended to focus on their own “Law and Gospel” preaching and teaching from one Sunday to the next and didn’t have much to say about other Christian faiths. Except on Reformation Sunday, that is. The Reformation Sunday celebration was always an occasion for the pastor to remind his congregation of the necessity of being separate from the Catholic Church due to the need to “restore and proclaim the true Gospel” (or some such wording), because of the Catholic Church’s focus on “works righteousness.”

 

[MT1926]

Then you’re my kind of Catholic. And I’m your kind of Lutheran. As difficult as it may be to believe, so is Pastor Fisk. He’s just speaking to a very specific crowd. We do have differences in belief, however slight, and kudos to him for not ignoring that. His message, however, is geared toward those young Lutheran males who may be questioning their faith. I personally don’t care for the bombastic tone or flashy presentation, but it serves a good purpose in reaching those who otherwise may be disillusioned with the faith and could fall away entirely.

I can also understand his bombastic tone and flashy presentation for younger adults.

However, do you approve of his anti-Catholic sentiment, misinforming the public on what the Catholic Church teaches and calling the Pope the anti-Christ?

You yourself stated in your post:

“This is uncalled for, untrue and unfair.”

And

“Again, you’re terribly misinformed.”

I totally agree with both of these statements and think Pastor Fisk should learn to follow your rules as well. Being a Pastor and in a place of Authority, over young impressionable teenagers, he does a disservice to all Christians with his videos. The only thing he is accomplishing with this is a new generation of soldiers in the war against brothers and sisters in the Christian faith.

 

[steido01]

I can also understand his bombastic tone and flashy presentation for younger adults.

However, do you approve of his anti-Catholic sentiment, misinforming the public on what the Catholic Church teaches and calling the Pope the anti-Christ?

You yourself stated in your post:

“This is uncalled for, untrue and unfair.”

And

“Again, you’re terribly misinformed.”

I totally agree with both of these statements and think Pastor Fisk should learn to follow your rules as well. Being a Pastor and in a place of Authority, over young impressionable teenagers, he does a disservice to all Christians with his videos. The only thing he is accomplishing with this is a new generation of soldiers in the war against brothers and sisters in the Christian faith.

What, exactly, do you find “anti-Catholic”? If you object to Lutherans calling the office of the papacy anti–to-Christ, that is something Lutherans have always believed, conditionally. Where it gets sticky here, is that Lutherans do not mean what other denominations mean when they use that term. We know that our brothers and sisters in Christ exist in the Catholic Church. We know that, in general, the recent popes have been outstanding models for the Christian life. That does not mean we accept the office that they hold as being part of Christ’s design for the church.

How, exactly, did he misinform his viewers on what the Catholic Church teaches?

I don’t think it’s anti- anything to hold one’s own religious views to be correct over against another’s. Do you?

 

[pablope]

What, exactly, do you find “anti-Catholic”? If you object to Lutherans calling the office of the papacy anti–to-Christ, that is something Lutherans have always believed, conditionally. Where it gets sticky here, is that Lutherans do not mean what other denominations mean when they use that term.

The language from your actual confessional document:

9] Now, it is manifest that the Roman pontiffs, with their adherents, defend [and practice] godless doctrines and godless services. And the marks [all the vices] of Antichrist plainly agree with the kingdom of the Pope and his adherents. For Paul, in describing Antichrist to the Thessalonians, calls him 2 Thess. 2:3-4: an adversary of Christ, who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God. He speaks therefore of one ruling in the Church, not of heathen kings, and he calls this one the adversary of Christ, because he will devise doctrine conflicting with the Gospel, and will assume to himself divine authority.

OF THE ANTICHRIST
As to the Antichrist we teach that the prophecies of the Holy Scriptures concerning the Antichrist, 2 Thess. 2:3-12; 1 John 2:18, have been fulfilled in the Pope of Rome and his dominion. All the features of the Antichrist as drawn in these prophecies, including the most abominable and horrible ones, for example, that the Antichrist “as God sitteth in the temple of God,” 2 Thess. 2:4; that he anathematizes the very heart of the Gospel of Christ, that is, the doctrine of the forgiveness of sins by grace alone, for Christ’s sake alone, through faith alone, without any merit or worthiness in man (Rom. 3:20-28; Gal. 2:16); that he recognizes only those as members of the Christian Church who bow to his authority; and that, like a deluge, he had inundated the whole Church with his antichristian doctrines till God revealed him through the Reformation — these very features are the outstanding characteristics of the Papacy. (Cf. Smalcald Articles, Triglot, p. 515, Paragraphs 39-41; p. 401, Paragraph 45; M. pp. 336, 258.) Hence we subscribe to the statement of our Confessions that the Pope is “the very Antichrist.” (Smalcald Articles, Triglot, p. 475, Paragraph 10; M., p. 308.)

We know that our brothers and sisters in Christ exist in the Catholic Church. We know that, in general, the recent popes have been outstanding models for the Christian life.

 

[betsybug354]

The language from your actual confessional document:

 

[MaryT777]

Is that preacher for real?
How would the Lutherans feel if a Catholic priest went on Youtube attacking their church in that manner?
I hope I never see or hear one our own clergy doing so, because if I ever did (whichever religion was being vilified) I would be disgusted.

I agree.

Mary.

 

[MT1926]

What, exactly, do you find “anti-Catholic”? If you object to Lutherans calling the office of the papacy anti–to-Christ, that is something Lutherans have always believed, conditionally. Where it gets sticky here, is that Lutherans do not mean what other denominations mean when they use that term. We know that our brothers and sisters in Christ exist in the Catholic Church. We know that, in general, the recent popes have been outstanding models for the Christian life. That does not mean we accept the office that they hold as being part of Christ’s design for the church.

How, exactly, did he misinform his viewers on what the Catholic Church teaches?

I don’t think it’s anti- anything to hold one’s own religious views to be correct over against another’s. Do you?

Still think it is bad form to use anti-Christ in this day and age. You can even tell by one of the comments it wasn’t taken this way. And as you said yourself his target audience is uninformed teenagers who don’t think it means what you think it means.

Could you please site me one example of an Apostolic teaching that Pastor Fisk says the Pope overturned?

Becoming Catholic means you reject being saved by grace through faith? Really last time I checked Catholics don’t reject this.

Catholics believe we are saved by works and have to climb a ladder through purgatory. I’ll have to look that one up. Is that Jacob’s ladder.

If that isn’t enough I would be more than happy to go through his other videos so you can give him a call and tell him " this is uncalled for, untrue and unfair and let him know he is terrible misinformed.

I agree with you I think a constructive dialogue holding ones own beliefs is beneficial, but outright misinformation of someone else is uncalled for as you mentioned.

God Bless

 

[Peter_J]

No offense intended, I assure you. I should’ve said instead, “Non-Cafeteria Catholics.” Mea culpa!

Then you were definitely not using the phrase “Traditional Catholics” as that phrase is usually used.

 

[steido01]

Still think it is bad form to use anti-Christ in this day and age.

Why? Because it upsets your personal preconceived notions of what that means? I would think a Catholic would be pleased that Lutherans have maintained their teachings without deviation.

You can even tell by one of the comments it wasn’t taken this way. And as you said yourself his target audience is uninformed teenagers who don’t think it means what you think it means.

That’s why he’s teaching them. When a Catholic priest cites Lutheran teaching as heretical, how do you think your young ones subsequently think about us?

Could you please site me one example of an Apostolic teaching that Pastor Fisk says the Pope overturned?

Salvation by Grace Alone, through Faith Alone, which up until Trent was an acceptable Catholic option (and, according to Lutherans, the correct one). The Marian doctrines, while sweet and pious, also needn’t be mandatory to believe for salvation - Christ Alone saves. Not the Pope, and not the Theotokos.

Becoming Catholic means you reject being saved by grace through faith? Really last time I checked Catholics don’t reject this.

If you take a listen to the other link I posted, you’ll learn that we mean different things when we say the same words.

Catholics believe we are saved by works and have to climb a ladder through purgatory. I’ll have to look that one up. Is that Jacob’s ladder.

He’s obviously speaking metaphorically. But that said, many Catholics do still think of purgatory as a physical place. And Catholics have always placed a heavier reliance on works than Lutherans, and indulgences are still given out.

 

[betsybug354]

Why? Because it upsets your personal preconceived notions of what that means? I would think a Catholic would be pleased that Lutherans have maintained their teachings without deviation.

With all due respect, Don, I’m not sure what you mean by Lutherans maintaining their teachings “without deviation.” I’m fairly certain that if Lutheran pastors today began preaching out of the Smalcald Articles every Sunday, the congregation would walk away scratching their heads in confusion. The fact is, Martin Luther would be hard pressed to recognize his ecclesial community in 2016, much less the myriad Protestant offshoots that exist today as a result of the Pandora’s Box that was unleashed by the notion of Sola Scriptura. As time marches on, I suspect Lutheranism will increasingly become more irrelevant as more people leave due to indifference and others search for the truth of historical Christianity.