Do modern Protestants know what they are protesting?

[PRmerger]

Okay, so even though Jesus did not intend that we should have scriptures (NT), we do have them?

This is not a correct explication of Catholic teaching, pilgrim.

Jesus did indeed intend us to have a 27 book NT.

He just didn’t say that in the Bible.

So this is an example of something that you believe, even though there’s not a single word of that said in the Bible.

 

[PRmerger]

This can’t be true unless you have any specific words of Jesus that Catholics believe Jesus actually said, which aren’t in the Bible.

Matthew 24:35 Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.

Do you know of any words that aren’t in the Bible?

Jesus is said to have said, “It is better to give than receive”, but that’s not found in any of the words of Jesus.

Clearly, not everything he said was put down to writ, but was spread via Oral Tradition.

Also, Jesus/God is said to have closed the canon of Scripture, but that is no where in the Bible.

And, Jesus/God is said to have declared revelation closed with the death of the last apostle, but that is no where in the Bible.

 

[PRmerger]

Besides Baptize in the name of the Father, Son, Holy Spirit, which is in the Bible.

That doesn’t mean the Trinity any more than I say that I came in the name of the First President, George Washington, and the Father of our Country.

No one would glean, “Ah, so George Washington must be 3 persons in 1 President!” from that.

 

[Per_Crucem]

Jesus is said to have said, “It is better to give than receive”, but that’s not found in any of the words of Jesus.

Not in the Gospels, but it is in the New Testament. Do you know any of Jesus’ words, via oral tradition, that are not in the New Testament?

 

[dronald]

Jesus is said to have said, “It is better to give than receive”, but that’s not found in any of the words of Jesus.

Exactly! Thank you.

So as you know, Jesus’s words are recorded in the Bible and we can be certain Jesus said those exact words. So I would like one example of the same thing happening outside of the Bible.

 

[dronald]

That doesn’t mean the Trinity any more than I say that I came in the name of the First President, George Washington, and the Father of our Country.

No one would glean, “Ah, so George Washington must be 3 persons in 1 President!” from that.

I can be a very sarcastic person and I have been many times here before but it’s something I’ve worked on as best as I can, especially in a long discussion with someone if I want to be taken seriously.

So I must ask politely without judgement, can you turn down the sarcastic tone? I find I personally get it often from you and it’s quite intimidating in what can be a good discussion.

Thanks.

 

[PRmerger]

Not in the Gospels, but it is in the New Testament. Do you know any of Jesus’ words, via oral tradition, that are not in the New Testament?

How about that the canon of Scripture will be closed when the Church discerns it to be closed?

And that public revelation will end with the death of the last apostle?

And that there will be 27 books in the NT?

And that the Epistle to the Hebrews is theopneustos?

And that the Epistle of Barnabas is not?

 

[Per_Crucem]

How about that the canon of Scripture will be closed when the Church discerns it to be closed?

And that public revelation will end with the death of the last apostle?

And that there will be 27 books in the NT?

And that the Epistle to the Hebrews is theopneustos?

And that the Epistle of Barnabas is not?

I asked about His words, specifically.

 

[PRmerger]

I asked about His words, specifically.

Well, we don’t have all of them written down.

Isn’t that the point of this discussion? What things did Jesus say that weren’t written down?

 

[dronald]

Well, we don’t have all of them written down.

Isn’t that the point of this discussion? What things did Jesus say that weren’t written down?

Yes, what did Jesus say that was not written down in the Bible? I don’t want everything He said, just an example of what we know He definitely said but not found in the Bible; as He says “My words will never pass away.”

 

[adawgj]

With my experience with Protestants they probably do not know why they are protesting.
Normally it’s simple ignorance on the subject.

 

[PRmerger]

I can be a very sarcastic person and I have been many times here before but it’s something I’ve worked on as best as I can, especially in a long discussion with someone if I want to be taken seriously.

So I must ask politely without judgement, can you turn down the sarcastic tone? I find I personally get it often from you and it’s quite intimidating in what can be a good discussion.

Thanks.

I was in no way, shape or form being sarcastic. I was using hyperbole. An exaggerated example to limn the absurdity of a particular premise.

I rarely use sarcasm. It is the protest of the weak.

 

[PRmerger]

Yes, what did Jesus say that was not written down in the Bible? I don’t want everything He said, just an example of what we know He definitely said but not found in the Bible; as He says “My words will never pass away.”

How about that the canon of Scripture will be closed when the Church discerns it to be closed?

And that public revelation will end with the death of the last apostle?

And that there will be 27 books in the NT?

And that the Epistle to the Hebrews is theopneustos?

And that the Epistle of Barnabas is not?

 

[Tomster]

With my experience with Protestants they probably do not know why they are protesting.
Normally it’s simple ignorance on the subject.

Simple ignorance has a lot to do with it.

The instability of Protestantism is due to the strange concept of human autonomy which the Reformers injected into the body of Christian tradition.

Church historians correctly say there were two fundamental principles of the Reformation: the supreme authority of Scripture and the doctrine of justification by faith. Against these the Catholic position is that Scripture alone is not sufficient, but tradition is also needed; and that man is justified or made pleasing to God not only by faith but also by the good works he performs.

However, beneath these two Reformation issues lay a deeper error from which they are both derived. This was the assertion of man’s independence of any society as the final arbiter in questions of faith and morals. It was the Protestant belief in the inspiration of the individual and the consequent right of private judgment.

So basic is this principle that by it we may explain not the Protestant imperviousness to history and argument which is so incredible to Catholics, but also the resistance among Protestants themselves to any attempt on the part of their leaders to unite the churches under “authoritarian domination.”

 

[dronald]

How about that the canon of Scripture will be closed when the Church discerns it to be closed?

And that public revelation will end with the death of the last apostle?

And that there will be 27 books in the NT?

And that the Epistle to the Hebrews is theopneustos?

And that the Epistle of Barnabas is not?

So Jesus said those things? What exactly did He say?

 

[FathersKnowBest]

Exactly! Thank you.

So as you know, Jesus’s words are recorded in the Bible and we can be certain Jesus said those exact words.

Actually, no. We cannot.

Jesus didn’t speak Greek in normal, everyday conversation.

What we have are Greek translations of Jesus’ “exact words.”
And, as any translator will tell you, there is a certain latitude that MUST be taken in any translation.

Now, we believe that these translations are themselves theopneustos, and thus accurately convey the teachings of Christ. But that in itself is a revelation through the Church. (Other than Matthew 27:46)

What PRmerger has been offering are themselves the accurate teachings of Christ, also not in His exact words.

To demand His “exact words” is a bit disingenuous.

 

[PRmerger]

So Jesus said those things? What exactly did He say?

Since they were not written down, we don’t know exactly what He said.

We do know that the Catholic faith was whole and entire before a single word of the NT was put to writ.

And since, I presume, you do believe that public revelation ended with the death of the last apostle–do you believe this even if Jesus never said it, according to you?

 

[PRmerger]

Exactly! Thank you.

So as you know, Jesus’s words are recorded in the Bible and we can be certain Jesus said those exact words.

That’s a man-made tradition you’ve been duped into believing, dronald.

Where does the Bible say that it recorded Jesus’ “exact words”?

Book, chapter and verse, please.

 

[dronald]

So then His words did pass away or they didn’t? Which words was Jesus speaking of?

Was He speaking of general teachings and not actually His Words?

 

[pablope]

So then His words did pass away or they didn’t? Which words was Jesus speaking of?

Was He speaking of general teachings and not actually His Words?

As I stated in a prior post…it is the Church that keeps his words from passing away.

“my words will never pass away”…could also mean the Church, through the Church…His words will never pass away, as the Church will continue proclaiming His word.

Do you think that when the Church speaks…it is not Christ who is speaking, through the Church?