Do Mormons beleive there were/are gods before God?

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TexanKnight said:
So then God is a liar? God said He knew of NO OTHER gods!. None. Zip. Nada. IF He was JUST the God of this world (despite the assertion by God himself that He is the God of ALL) wouldn’t He know the other gods? For if He didn’t, how would He know there were other gods?

So, again, as it was with Jesus being a liar for the lds church to be true, now God must likewise be a liar.

And why did you ignore the question about BY?
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I was trying to summarise what I understand to be Mormon theology, so a Mormon could correct me if I got it wrong. Your criticism of their theology may be valid, but is a little densely phrased. Maybe you could lay it out, point by point?

Your post could also use some sourcing. Where did God say he knew of no other gods?
(I do recall seeing that somewhere as well, but do not remember where).

Also, I did not understand the question about Young. Saying ‘what about the teaching of BY’ is kind of vague. He taught a lot of things.
 
FrankLJ said:
I was trying to summarise what I understand to be Mormon theology, so a Mormon could correct me if I got it wrong. Your criticism of their theology may be valid, but is a little densely phrased. Maybe you could lay it out, point by point?

I have. And maybe YOU should be specific. Which lds theology? That of js? BY? later “prophets”? They all had different theology.

Your post could also use some sourcing. Where did God say he knew of no other gods?
(I do recall seeing that somewhere as well, but do not remember where).

I already did. Several posts back

Also, I did not understand the question about Young. Saying ‘what about the teaching of BY’ is kind of vague. He taught a lot of things.
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I posted BY quotes several posts back
 
rmcmullan said:
Stick to the LDS scriptures and we can talk.
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your problem is that you cannot run away from your prophets like that. I mentioned quotes by BY that you will not answer, saying “stick to lds scripture”

Well, what BY said IS Scripture…so you really can’t run from it.

“Twice at last October’s General Conference, speakers made positive reference to a speech delivered in 1980 by an LDS Apostle (who later became President of the Church). In this original speech, Mormons were told that, “The Prophet Does Not Have to Say ‘Thus Saith the Lord’ to Give Us Scripture.” The point the apostle was making was that a prophet’s words are always wholly authoritative and binding upon the Church; what he says is scripture. Brigham Young, another LDS President, was quoted in this speech as having said, “I have never yet preached a sermon and sent it out to the children of men, that they may not call scripture” (Ezra Taft Benson, Fourteen Fundamentals of Following the Prophet, press copy, 6-7).”

so…back to BY, right?
 
rmcmullan said:
As for the question Do you believe there were/are gods before God?, I thought the scripture I provided pretty much addressed that. While there are many great and noble (eternal) spirits, none is as great as God. Did you not read it or did you get a different meaning?
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The fact that whoever the father of the Mormon’s god is not as great as god, seems to be inconsistent with my understanding of the Mormon teaching on eternal progression.
 
rmcmullan said:
The are major differences on this subject with respect to the RC/LDS point of view.
The first is that RC teach that God created man. LDS teaches that God is the Father of our spirits, which are eternal.
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For our discussion here, the Catholic view is the Christian view. It has been Christian teaching since the time of Christ. The Christian view is that God is uncreated and created everything from nothing. God always was and will always be; everything else including man was created by him.
rmcmullan said:
There’s more about how matter and intelligence are eternal. Eternal is without beginning or end as opposed to created which does have a beginning.
Also, regarding God’s Divinity–I’m still not sure what it is in the Catholic sense, see if this other scripture from the Official Mormon Scriptures does it for you:
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The Mormon view as you quote from the teaching of Joseph Smith in 1842 during his polytheism period (1839-1844) seems to be that God was not created and neither is man. So contrary to Christian teaching God is not the creator of everything but is one of many gods.
rmcmullan said:
Now I don’t expect you to throw away your Catholic faith on this but at least you might understand the differences and maybe even admit there is at least some kind of consistency to the Mormon teaching.
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Yes, I think monotheism and creation from nothing (ex nihilo) are logically consistent and Christian. And the rejection of creation ex nihilo and polytheism are logically consistent but not Christian.
rmcmullan said:
It’s a huge error if you are Catholic, not if you are Mormon. I don’t think either can be proven.
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More accurately, a huge error if you are Christian because God as the creator of everything is the consistent teaching of Christianity from its beginning.
rmcmullan said:
Stick to the LDS scriptures and we can talk.
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Yes, Mormon’s have to reject the Bible (see post 131) to accept the later teachings of Joseph Smith.
The problem with Mormon teaching isn’t necessarily whether it is consistent or not, because there are many polytheist religions in the world. The difference is that none of these religions claim to be a ‘restoration’ of the Church started by Jesus Christ. This claim is where the view of Mormonism falls apart. Mormonism has moved so far away from the Catholic Church started by Christ that it isn’t even Christian anymore.
 
rmcmullan said:
Stick to the LDS scriptures and we can talk.
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Why? Is the LDS Church sola scriptura (in this case the “scriptura” being the Standard Works)? If so, then why General Conference and reading the words of living prophets (including studying the Teachings of Presidents of the Church)?
 
rmcmullan said:
Stick to the LDS scriptures and we can talk.
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GREa-a-a-T!
Then let’s take a looky at the Mormon’s FAKE bible:
Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom I have chosen:
that ye may know and believe me, and understand that I am he: before me
there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.
  • (Isaiah 43:10) (JST)
Mormon Response: FORGET THE BIBLE!
 
TexanKnight said:
I posted BY quotes several posts back
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The one that is being discussed here(which I take to be the current teaching). I think you were probably trying to respond to one of the Mormon posters. My post was to both respond to one question about what ‘eternal’ seems to mean, and summarise what had been said so far, to see if I understand the argument used by Mormons.

One good resource I have found is ldsfreedom.com. There is a forum thread there by W. Cleon Skousen called Building Blocks of the Universe which summarises the whole current Mormon view of eternal spirits and progression to godhood. I have seen nothing here posted by Mormons to contradict it, so I assume it is current teaching.

I think it is important to try and understand exactly what those who disagree with you do believe, as it is no use criticising them for something they don’t.
 
FrankLJ said:
The one that is being discussed here(which I take to be the current teaching). I think you were probably trying to respond to one of the Mormon posters. My post was to both respond to one question about what ‘eternal’ seems to mean, and summarise what had been said so far, to see if I understand the argument used by Mormons.

One good resource I have found is ldsfreedom.com. There is a forum thread there by W. Cleon Skousen called Building Blocks of the Universe which summarises the whole current Mormon view of eternal spirits and progression to godhood. I have seen nothing here posted by Mormons to contradict it, so I assume it is current teaching.

I think it is important to try and understand exactly what those who disagree with you do believe, as it is no use criticising them for something they don’t.
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I was Mormon. I was a mormon missionary. Iwas in the bishopric. I was in the elder’s quorum presidency. I was a Elder’s Sunday School Teacher. I was a Stake missionary.

I know what they have taught. I know what they SAY they believe, and what they should believe if they follow ALL their “prophets”. I have been the Palmyra and the Sacred Grove three times. I have been to Kirtland. I have been to Nauvoo three times and Carthage three times. I have been to Liberty Jail. I have attended temple ceremonies in at least 9 temples.

Please do not think I do not know
 
TexanKnight said:
I was Mormon. I was a mormon missionary. Iwas in the bishopric. I was in the elder’s quorum presidency. I was a Elder’s Sunday School Teacher. I was a Stake missionary.

I know what they have taught. I know what they SAY they believe, and what they should believe if they follow ALL their “prophets”. I have been the Palmyra and the Sacred Grove three times. I have been to Kirtland. I have been to Nauvoo three times and Carthage three times. I have been to Liberty Jail. I have attended temple ceremonies in at least 9 temples.

Please do not think I do not know
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I can always count on you in regards to Mormonism. It seems every time I ask a Mormon about humans being Eternal…I get the doce dos dance…🤷
 
zaffiroborant said:
According to lds.org the bible is LDS scripture.
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I hope you are not surprised. If you would like to point out the scriptures where God created our spirits, bring em! While I wait, should I throw together a list of all His promises to us? To share His glory and to make us priests and kings?
 
Janderich said:
Paul here is simply confirming the truth that there are many god’s and lords in heaven. He is saying that even if there are other god’s, as indeed there are, to us there is but one. This is exactly what I have been saying this whole thread. There are other god’s but we worship only one God the Father. But you will not accept this as you will also not accept Joseph’s word on the matter:
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Hi Janderich,

Deuteronomy 4, 39 doesn’t say there are other gods and lords in heaven:

“This is why you must now acknowledge, and fix in your heart, that the LORD is God in the heavens above and on earth below, and that there is no other.” (Deuteronomy 4, 39)

The KJV:

“Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.” (Deuteronomy 4, 39)

The Sacred Scripture invites you to consider it in your heart that there’s only one God in heavens and earth and that there’s no other. Think of that!

Think of this also (Thank you TexanKnight for your quotes list):

“Is there any God besides Me, Or is there any other Rock? I know of none.” (Isaiah 44:8)

Imagine the hypothesis that God once was a man. When he was a man he must have known the god of that world, and he had to obey him. Then he progressed to be a god. But in Sacred Scripture is said that He doesn’t know of other gods. So that hypothesis makes no sense.

Sacred Scripture also tells us that no other god will be formed after God (and not before).

“before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.” (Isaiah 43:10)

It’s crystal clear, isn’t it?
 
rmcmullan said:
I hope you are not surprised. If you would like to point out the scriptures where God created our spirits, bring em! While I wait, should I throw together a list of all His promises to us? To share His glory and to make us priests and kings?
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Dodging BY, still? Even though I have shown that what he said is Scripture?
 
HojaVerde said:
Hi Janderich,

Deuteronomy 4, 39 doesn’t say there are other gods and lords in heaven:

“This is why you must now acknowledge, and fix in your heart, that the LORD is God in the heavens above and on earth below, and that there is no other.” (Deuteronomy 4, 39)

The KJV:

“Know therefore this day, and consider it in thine heart, that the LORD he is God in heaven above, and upon the earth beneath: there is none else.” (Deuteronomy 4, 39)

The Sacred Scripture invites you to consider it in your heart that there’s only one God in heavens and earth and that there’s no other. Think of that!

Think of this also (Thank you TexanKnight for your quotes list):

“Is there any God besides Me, Or is there any other Rock? I know of none.” (Isaiah 44:8)

Imagine the hypothesis that God once was a man. When he was a man he must have known the god of that world, and he had to obey him. Then he progressed to be a god. But in Sacred Scripture is said that He doesn’t know of other gods. So that hypothesis makes no sense.

Sacred Scripture also tells us that no other god will be formed after God (and not before).

“before me there was no God formed, neither shall there be after me.” (Isaiah 43:10)

It’s crystal clear, isn’t it?
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yes. Crystal
 
rmcmullan said:
And you? Dodging scripture! :eek:

Ha, that eek emoticon is worst than saying ontological.
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Have not needed to dodge Scripture…and I mean TRUE Scripture. In fact, I have posted a lot of it.

But YOU said to stick to scripture so to dodge BY. I then proved that what BY IS lds scripture. yet, you still dodge.

Nice try.
 
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