Do Mormons beleive there were/are gods before God?

[Judas_Thaddeus]

The Book of Mormon was written by monotheist believers in the one triune God.

What you think is the result of Joseph Smith leading his people away from Christianity into a polytheistic apostasy. Had Joseph Smith been faithful to the book he “found” this would never have happened.

Not quite, yes the Book of Mormon is monotheistic and reflects on much of
19th century Christianity, but it is also MODALISTIC, SABELLIAN, thus still
even not Christian.

“And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down
among the children of men, and shall redeem his people. And because he dwelleth in flesh he shall be
called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the
Son – The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh;
thus becoming the Father and Son – And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and
of earth. And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, suf-
fereth temptation, and yieldeth not to the temptation…”

• (Mosiah 15:1-5)

“Teach them that redemption cometh through Christ the Lord, who is the very Eternal Father. Amen.”

• (Mosiah 16:15)

“Now Zeezrom saith again unto him: Is the Son of God the very Eternal Father? And Amulek said
unto him: Yea, he is the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth, and all things which in them
are; he is the beginning and the end, the first and the last; and he shall come into the world to re-
deem his people; and he shall take upon him the transgressions of those who believe on his name…”

• (Alma 11:38-40)

“Behold, he created Adam, and by Adam came the fall of man. And because of the fall of man came
Jesus Christ, even the Father and the Son; and because of Jesus Christ came the redemption of man.”

• (Mormon 9:12)

“Behold, I come unto my own, to fulfill all things which I have made known unto the children of men from
the foundation of the world, and to do the will, both of the Father and of the Son—of the Father because
of me, and of the Son because of my flesh.”

• (3 Nephi 1:14)

“Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold
I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life…and they shall
become my sons and my daughters.”

• (Ether 3:14)

“…for unto them will I show no greater things, saith Jesus Christ; for I am he who speaketh…For be-
hold, I am the Father, I am the light, and the life, and the truth of the world.”
(Ether 4:8-12)

Let’s not forget
this special bit:
“All things are delivered to me of my Father; and no man knoweth that the Son is the Father, and the
Father is the Son, but him to whom the Son will reveal it.”

• (Luke 10:23 (22), JST)

 

[taylorf]

What you think is the result of Joseph Smith leading his people away from Christianity into a polytheistic apostasy. Had Joseph Smith been faithful to the book he “found” this would never have happened.

As a side note, Grant Palmer recently gave a lecture on Joseph Smith’s changing view of God and Mormonthink posted the outline of his talk. It’s a nice summary that documents Joseph’s changing view.

mormonthink.com/grant12.htm

 

[Stephen168]

Not quite, yes the Book of Mormon is monotheistic and reflects on much of
19th century Christianity, but it is also MODALISTIC, SABELLIAN, thus still
even not Christian.

It is clear the author was a monotheist, but I think it is hard to tell of what kind from a few verses. I would prefer to give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they were orthodox trinitarians.

 

[Stephen168]

As a side note, Grant Palmer recently gave a lecture on Joseph Smith’s changing view of God and Mormonthink posted the outline of his talk. It’s a nice summary that documents Joseph’s changing view.

mormonthink.com/grant12.htm

Very interesting. Thanks

 

[rmcmullan]

**Let’s Get Ontological!
**
Now look, you made me use the “O” word! Sigh.

The are major differences on this subject with respect to the RC/LDS point of view.

The first is that RC teach that God created man. LDS teaches that God is the Father of our spirits, which are eternal. Please forgive me for such lengthy quotes but just in case it helps, from the Official Mormon Scriptures:

Abraham 3:21 I dwell in the midst of them all; I now, therefore, have come down unto thee to declare unto thee the works which my hands have made, wherein my wisdom excelleth them all, for I rule in the heavens above, and in the earth beneath, in all wisdom and prudence, over all the intelligences thine eyes have seen from the beginning; I came down in the beginning in the midst of all the intelligences thou hast seen.

22 Now the Lord had shown unto me, Abraham, the intelligences that were organized before the world was; and among all these there were many of the noble and great ones;

23 And God saw these souls that they were good, and he stood in the midst of them, and he said: These I will make my rulers; for he stood among those that were spirits, and he saw that they were good; and he said unto me: Abraham, thou art one of them; thou wast chosen before thou wast born.

There’s more about how matter and intelligence are eternal. Eternal is without beginning or end as opposed to created which does have a beginning.

Also, regarding God’s Divinity–I’m still not sure what it is in the Catholic sense, see if this other scripture from the Official Mormon Scriptures does it for you:

Abraham 3:19 And the Lord said unto me: These two facts do exist, that there are two spirits, one being more intelligent than the other; there shall be another more intelligent than they; I am the Lord thy God, I am more intelligent than they all.

Now I don’t expect you to throw away your Catholic faith on this but at least you might understand the differences and maybe even admit there is at least some kind of consistency to the Mormon teaching.

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

It is clear the author was a monotheist, but I think it is hard to tell of what kind from a few verses. I would prefer to give them the benefit of the doubt and assume they were orthodox trinitarians.

Just to know what you’re thinking, you are aware that the author is Joseph Smith, right?
I ask because you referred to the author as “author” and said that you would prefer to
give them benefit of the doubt. I hope by them, you don’t mean Nephi and so forth.

 

[FrankLJ]

(why is the Mormon god the literal Father of Jesus):

Even if he only gave Mary to be Joseph’s wife while in this mortal state, The Mormon god still had the child Jesus with her while in that state. Does that make Mary an adulteress?

I actually saw an answer to this, years ago in a Mormon publication. It said that since God (their version) could give a wife for this existence, then take her back later, he could divorce Mary from Joseph, for his purposes, then re-splice them later. It made me think of Groucho Marx, asking “Say, is all this stuff on the level, or are you just making it up as you go along?”.

But really, what is the point of saying God is the literal, fleshly Father of Jesus? What is accomplished thereby in the Mormon scheme of things? Why not the miraculous virgin birth? It seems that that would answer Mormon purposes. This has always puzzled me.

 

[Stephen168]

Just to know what you’re thinking, you are aware that the author is Joseph Smith, right?
I ask because you referred to the author as “author” and said that you would prefer to
give them benefit of the doubt. I hope by them, you don’t mean Nephi and so forth.

I think there have been some studies that show Joseph Smith was not the only author; Sidney Rigdon and Solomon Spalding are contenders. So them would be Smith, Rigdon, Spalding, etc.

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

Even if he only gave Mary to be Joseph’s wife while in this mortal state, The Mormon god still had the child Jesus with her while in that state. Does that make Mary an adulteress?

If we’re talking about God the Father coming down in “a body of flesh and bone as
tangible as man’s” and having literal sexual intercourse with the Virgin Mary, than
such would be the case. But that is not the Christian Story behind the Conception.

I actually saw an answer to this, years ago in a Mormon publication. It said that since God (their version) could give a wife for this existence, then take her back later, he could divorce Mary from Joseph, for his purposes, then re-splice them later. It made me think of Groucho Marx, asking “Say, is all this stuff on the level, or are you just making it up as you go along?”.

Answer to Marx: “Making it up as they go along”

But really, what is the point of saying God is the literal, fleshly Father of Jesus? What is accomplished thereby in the Mormon scheme of things? Why not the miraculous virgin birth? It seems that that would answer Mormon purposes. This has always puzzled me.

The reason is that Joseph Smith was telling everybody that we are all children of God, yet
people still recognized Jesus as the Only Begotten Son of God, so there had to be some-
thing special about how Jesus was conceived/born apart from the rest of us. So Mormons
had to formulate that God/Mary Copulation to make more sense of it (but it still doesn’t).

 

[Stephen168]

Let’s Get Ontological!

Now look, you made me use the “O” word! Sigh.

No if you could us it in a sentence

The are major differences on this subject with respect to the RC/LDS point of view.

The first is that RC teach that God created man. LDS teaches that God is the Father of our spirits, which are eternal. Please forgive me for such lengthy quotes but just in case it helps, from the Official Mormon Scriptures:

There’s more about how matter and intelligence are eternal. Eternal is without beginning or end as opposed to created which does have a beginning.

Also, regarding God’s Divinity–I’m still not sure what it is in the Catholic sense, see if this other scripture from the Official Mormon Scriptures does it for you:

Now I don’t expect you to throw away your Catholic faith on this but at least you might understand the differences and maybe even admit there is at least some kind of consistency to the Mormon teaching.

Do you believe there were/are gods before God?

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

I think there have been some studies that show Joseph Smith was not the only author; Sidney Rigdon and Solomon Spalding are contenders. So them would be Smith, Rigdon, Spalding, etc.

OH! That’s what you mean, sorry!

Personally I think Cowdery was in on it too, as Smith brought the book out a lot quicker with
him as the scribe than with his previous scribes like Emma and Harris. Both Joseph Smith &
Oliver Cowdery were mystics too, shared similar ideas about the Native Americans, et cetera.

 

[FrankLJ]

If we’re talking about God the Father coming down in “a body of flesh and bone as
tangible as man’s” and having literal sexual intercourse with the Virgin Mary, than
such would be the case. But that is not the Christian Story behind the Conception.

Answer to Marx: “Making it up as they go along”

The reason is that Joseph Smith was telling everybody that we are all children of God, yet
people still recognized Jesus as the Only Begotten Son of God, so there had to be some-
thing special about how Jesus was conceived/born apart from the rest of us. So Mormons
had to formulate that God/Mary Copulation to make more sense of it (but it still doesn’t).

Last point, post#165

I would have thought Jesus volunteering in Mormon heaven to be the Saviour, and Mary and Joseph being the promised Davidic line on earth would have been special enough. And a virgin birth would seem to be within the Mormon god’s powers. Does anyone know if it was Smith or Young who first floated this notion? Cause it still seems unnecessary.

I see your reasoning as to why they might have done it, but Jesus would seem to already be special enough. As a non-believer in Mormonism, I incline to the theory that it was done because someone had a certain natural function on the brain. But I would be glad to look at any official statements by whoever is responsible for this doctrine.

 

[Nicea325]

Let’s Get Ontological!

Now look, you made me use the “O” word! Sigh.

The are major differences on this subject with respect to the RC/LDS point of view.

The first is that RC teach that God created man. **LDS teaches that God is the Father of our spirits, which are eternal. ** Please forgive me for such lengthy quotes but just in case it helps, from the Official Mormon Scriptures:

There’s more about how matter and intelligence are eternal. Eternal is without beginning or end as opposed to created which does have a beginning.

Also, regarding God’s Divinity–I’m still not sure what it is in the Catholic sense, see if this other scripture from the Official Mormon Scriptures does it for you:

Now I don’t expect you to throw away your Catholic faith on this but at least you might understand the differences and maybe even admit there is at least some kind of consistency to the Mormon teaching.

Huge error.Humans ARE NOT ETERNAL! To claim Eternity is to claim existence with God…no beginning.

 

[Stephen168]

OH! That’s what you mean, sorry!

Personally I think Cowdery was in on it too, as Smith brought the book out a lot quicker with
him as the scribe than with his previous scribes like Emma and Harris. Both Joseph Smith &
Oliver Cowdery were mystics too, shared similar ideas about the Native Americans, et cetera.

There is one study that list Pratt, Cowdrey, Spalding, and Rigdon as most probable. I don’t think Smith was even listed. Which answers the Mormon question: How could such a young uneducated boy write the Book of Mormon? Answer: He didn’t; Pratt, Cowdrey, Spalding, and Rigdon did.

 

[TexanKnight]

Let’s Get Ontological!

Now look, you made me use the “O” word! Sigh.

The are major differences on this subject with respect to the RC/LDS point of view.

The first is that RC teach that God created man. LDS teaches that God is the Father of our spirits, which are eternal. Please forgive me for such lengthy quotes but just in case it helps, from the Official Mormon Scriptures:

There’s more about how matter and intelligence are eternal. Eternal is without beginning or end as opposed to created which does have a beginning.

Also, regarding God’s Divinity–I’m still not sure what it is in the Catholic sense, see if this other scripture from the Official Mormon Scriptures does it for you:

Now I don’t expect you to throw away your Catholic faith on this but at least you might understand the differences and maybe even admit there is at least some kind of consistency to the Mormon teaching.

how can eternal mean eternal when for Mormons it is not? Have you forgotten the teachings of BY or do you just ignore them?

 

[FrankLJ]

how can eternal mean eternal when for Mormons it is not? Have you forgotten the teachings of BY or do you just ignore them?

Eternal seems to mean that the spirit is eternal, exists, and has always existed independently of the Mormon god. Saying this god is ‘the Father of our spirits’ seems to mean that he took some of these pre existing spirits under his protection and became their ‘father’- the exact process is not known-. This is the first estate. These spirits are then born on Earth, and become flesh. This is the second estate. The Mormon Jesus was born this way too, he was another spirit like us, but volunteered to be the saviour ( to see how , see previous threads ad infinitum). If we do everything right on earth, we get to be resurrected and go to Mormon heaven, body and flesh. That is the third estate. The being they call ‘God’ did this, that’s why he has a flesh body like ours.

Once you get your third estate, you can eventually learn enough to start your own planet, recruit some more spirits and become their ‘Father’, and be a god to them, just as the Mormon god is god to us (I think a better word than ‘father’ might be ‘mentor’). He had someone do the same to him, eons ago, on another planet. Not sure how it is all supposed to have started, or who the first ‘god’ was.

The basic thing to remember is what one of their later prophets said:

‘As man is, God once was. As god is, man may become.’

So to get back to the original subject of this thread, do Mormons believe that there were gods before God: Yes. But only the god of our planet, our heavenly sponsor, the one who brought us in from the outer darkness, is to be worshipped. In a Mormon phrase, ‘He is the only God with whom we have to do’.

P.S. On a minor, unrelated point, could everyone please stop referring to the ‘Diety’. It’s not a great theological issue, I know, but it does sound like the One referred to is on some kind of slimming program.

 

[rmcmullan]

Huge error.Humans ARE NOT ETERNAL! To claim Eternity is to claim existence with God…no beginning.

It’s a huge error if you are Catholic, not if you are Mormon. I don’t think either can be proven.

As for the question Do you believe there were/are gods before God?, I thought the scripture I provided pretty much addressed that. While there are many great and noble (eternal) spirits, none is as great as God. Did you not read it or did you get a different meaning?

 

[FrankLJ]

It’s a huge error if you are Catholic, not if you are Mormon. I don’t think either can be proven.

As for the question Do you believe there were/are gods before God?, I thought the scripture I provided pretty much addressed that. While there are many great and noble (eternal) spirits, none is as great as God. Did you not read it or did you get a different meaning?

What about God’s father? He must be more progressed than God, though we don’ t know him.

 

[TexanKnight]

Eternal seems to mean that the spirit is eternal, exists, and has always existed independently of the Mormon god. Saying this god is ‘the Father of our spirits’ seems to mean that he took some of these pre existing spirits under his protection and became their ‘father’- the exact process is not known-. This is the first estate. These spirits are then born on Earth, and become flesh. This is the second estate. The Mormon Jesus was born this way too, he was another spirit like us, but volunteered to be the saviour ( to see how , see previous threads ad infinitum). If we do everything right on earth, we get to be resurrected and go to Mormon heaven, body and flesh. That is the third estate. The being they call ‘God’ did this, that’s why he has a flesh body like ours.

Once you get your third estate, you can eventually learn enough to start your own planet, recruit some more spirits and become their ‘Father’, and be a god to them, just as the Mormon god is god to us (I think a better word than ‘father’ might be ‘mentor’). He had someone do the same to him, eons ago, on another planet. Not sure how it is all supposed to have started, or who the first ‘god’ was.

The basic thing to remember is what one of their later prophets said:

‘As man is, God once was. As god is, man may become.’

So to get back to the original subject of this thread, do Mormons believe that there were gods before God: Yes. But only the god of our planet, our heavenly sponsor, the one who brought us in from the outer darkness, is to be worshipped. In a Mormon phrase, ‘He is the only God with whom we have to do’.

P.S. On a minor, unrelated point, could everyone please stop referring to the ‘Diety’. It’s not a great theological issue, I know, but it does sound like the One referred to is on some kind of slimming program.

So then God is a liar? God said He knew of NO OTHER gods!. None. Zip. Nada. IF He was JUST the God of this world (despite the assertion by God himself that He is the God of ALL) wouldn’t He know the other gods? For if He didn’t, how would He know there were other gods?

So, again, as it was with Jesus being a liar for the lds church to be true, now God must likewise be a liar.

And why did you ignore the question about BY?

 

[TexanKnight]

It’s a huge error if you are Catholic, not if you are Mormon. I don’t think either can be proven.

As for the question Do you believe there were/are gods before God?, I thought the scripture I provided pretty much addressed that. While there are many great and noble (eternal) spirits, none is as great as God. Did you not read it or did you get a different meaning?

so you ignored all the verses I posted about God being the ONLY God and the quotes from BY?

Understandable…