Do Mormons beleive there were/are gods before God?

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lylebone said:
This thread is WAY out of context. As a studious, life-long practicing member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, I can confidently say that this talk about multiple gods/Gods is irrelevant to us here and now. We worship the one and ONLY true God, even our Eternal Heavenly Father. Period. End of discussion. Speculation feeds sensationalism which is dishonesty.

If I wanted to know about what Mormons believe regarding the nature of God, I would actually go to lds.org and start reading; but ONLY if I were sincerely wanting to get an accurate picture of LDS beliefs in their right context. Since the LDS faith rests squarely on the story and testimony of Joseph Smith, here is a good place to begin:
lds.org/scriptures/pgp/js-h/1?lang=eng

It is interesting to note that young Joseph Smith was utterly confused by all the contention between the various Christian religions. Let us right here and now expand that to today where we have hundreds of sects and denominations of every kind.

What standard are we going to use to determine what makes the Catholic interpretation of the Bible so unique or special beyond any other faith: the Methodists, Baptists, Lutherans, JW’s, etc. and so forth? Same Bible yet so many interpretations. Who has the authority to determine which are correct and which are false? :confused:

I say that the answer Joseph Smith received on that spring day in 1820 made everything much more simple.
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Umm do you realise where & how the Bible came to be?
 
Originally Posted by taylorf
“Theological training and knowledge is not a requirement for or expectation of those in Mormon leadership positions.”
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U-huh…David Koresh would agree with such a position,we all know the end results. :whistle:
 
lylebone said:
This thread is WAY out of context. As a studious, life-long practicing member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, I can confidently say that this talk about multiple gods/Gods is irrelevant to us here and now. We worship the one and ONLY true God, even our Eternal Heavenly Father. Period. End of discussion. Speculation feeds sensationalism which is dishonesty.

If I wanted to know about what Mormons believe regarding the nature of God, I would actually go to lds.org and start reading; but ONLY if I were sincerely wanting to get an accurate picture of LDS beliefs in their right context. Since the LDS faith rests squarely on the story and testimony of Joseph Smith, here is a good place to begin:
lds.org/scriptures/pgp/js-h/1?lang=eng

It is interesting to note that young Joseph Smith was utterly confused by all the contention between the various Christian religions. Let us right here and now expand that to today where we have hundreds of sects and denominations of every kind.

What standard are we going to use to determine what makes the Catholic interpretation of the Bible so unique or special beyond any other faith: the Methodists, Baptists, Lutherans, JW’s, etc. and so forth? Same Bible yet so many interpretations. Who has the authority to determine which are correct and which are false? :confused:

I say that the answer Joseph Smith received on that spring day in 1820 made everything much more simple.
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Why did smith try to join the Methodist church AFTER he had the so called “first vision”.

How many versions of the “first vision” are there? (at least 9)

How many failed prophesies did smith have? It only take one to be a false prophet.

How many changes have there been to the book of mormon? (3913) “I told the brethren that the Book of Mormon was the most correct of any book on earth." History of the church 4:461. Doesn’t sound too “correct” to me. 🤷

Why did smith try to sell the copyright to the book of mormon? This was in 1830, shortly after it was published?

In closing, I will say, I don’t expect you to come back and answer any of these, but, I wanted to put them out there.

Also, I noticed (and I am sure others did) you said, " I can confidently say that this talk about multiple gods/Gods is irrelevant to us here and now." (bolding mine)

Nice qualifier!! 👍
 
lylebone said:
We worship the one and ONLY true God, even our Eternal Heavenly Father. Period. End of discussion. Speculation feeds sensationalism which is dishonesty.
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Could you clarify:

Does the one and ONLY true god you worship (toaOtg) have a Father himself?

If so, why not worship him instead?

Also, if toaOtg has a Father, how is he the one and only?

What does ‘true God’ mean in this context?

On another point:

When toaOtg has children are they created out of nothing, or does he just tap an existing spirit on the shoulder (so to speak) and say, ‘you’re mine’?

Also, I know that toaOtg is supposed by you to have a body of flesh and bones, like us, and several wives who are the same. How do a flesh mother and father have spirit children?
I am basing these questions on Mormon theology as developed by W. Cleon Skousen. His lectures at ldsfreedomforum.com ‘The building blocks of the universe’ and his book ’ The first 5,000 years’ answer many questions about the origin of spirits and the nature of god(s) in Mormonism. Did you know that the God of our planet is only God because other intelligences ‘sustain’ him as such because of his right behaviour, and if he misbehaves, they could withdraw their support, causing him to lose his power? Kind of like Wotan in the Ring cycle.

Any commentary on any of these points is welcome. Remember, without clarification, we have speculation, which only feeds sensationalism.*
 
FrankLJ said:
Could you clarify:

Does the one and ONLY true god you worship (toaOtg) have a Father himself? Yes.

If so, why not worship him instead?
Because the one and only true God, as you put it, is our Father. He has all the power and all the knowledge to save us. We need not look, indeed we must not look, to anyone else for if we are saved we are saved by Him and Him alone.

Also, if toaOtg has a Father, how is he the one and only? He is the one and only to us as explained above.

What does ‘true God’ mean in this context? Perhaps many things, but one thing it means is that he is correctly understood as opposed to the many false notions of him.

On another point:

When toaOtg has children are they created out of nothing, or does he just tap an existing spirit on the shoulder (so to speak) and say, ‘you’re mine’? Of course they are not created out of nothing. Nothing comes from nothing. This is a plain and obvious truth. The exact process is not known. But he has been our Father for a long, long, time.

Also, I know that toaOtg is supposed by you to have a body of flesh and bones, like us, and several wives who are the same. How do a flesh mother and father have spirit children? Do not judge everything by this fallen mortal realm. We have not authority while here on this earth to create spirit beings. But when, “our spirits receive our bodies, and through our faithfulness we are worthy to be crowned, we will then receive authority to produce both spirit and body. But the keys we cannot receive in the flesh” (JD 15:137)

Did you know that the God of our planet is only God because other intelligences ‘sustain’ him as such because of his right behaviour, and if he misbehaves, they could withdraw their support, causing him to lose his power? Kind of like Wotan in the Ring cycle. God does not lose his power. The scriptures talk about God losing his power in order uncover logical fallacies. An example would be the following, “Now the work of justice could not be destroyed; if so, God would cease to be God” (Alma 42:13). Obviously justice will remain and God will not cease to be God. So it is with his power. God’s attributes and character make him who he is. If he was anything less then merciful, just, etc. then you and I would not follow him. But he is merciful, he is just, he is all knowing, etc.so we can rightly exercise faith in him because he can and will save us.
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Janderich said:
Do not judge everything by this fallen mortal realm. We have not authority while here on this earth to create spirit beings. But when, “our spirits receive our bodies, and through our faithfulness we are worthy to be crowned, we will then receive authority to produce both spirit and body. But the keys we cannot receive in the flesh” (JD 15:137)
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Interesting that Mormons can quote the Journal of Discourses to clarify some point of LDS doctrine, but they cry foul when we do it. Odd…
 
Janderich,

Your posts about God remind me of a wizard. Makes me want to read the Silmarillion again.
 
As much as I do like the Osmond family and their music, they do have one album written by them that definitely concurs with this Mormon belief called The Plan. They consider it to be their “White Album” like the Beatles. Most of the music can be interpreted in a pretty much Christian way, except one Before The Beginning. Here it is for you to listen to.
 
Janderich said:
FrankLJ;11431806:
When toaOtg has children are they created out of nothing, or does he just tap an existing spirit on the shoulder (so to speak) and say, ‘you’re mine’?
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Of course they are not created out of nothing. Nothing comes from nothing. This is a plain and obvious truth. The exact process is not known. But he has been our Father for a long, long, time.
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What’s plain and obvious is that no one can be the literal parent of an eternal being. It is impossible for God the Father to be our literal parent if we existed eternally along side him. He could have fashioned the human matroyka that Mormonism puts forward but he can not be our literal father.
 
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zaffiroborant:
What’s plain and obvious is that no one can be the literal parent of an eternal being. It is impossible for God the Father to be our literal parent if we existed eternally along side him. He could have fashioned the human matroyka that Mormonism puts forward but he can not be our literal father. Then let me ask a couple of simple questions…
  1. Did Jesus exist before being born here on earth?
  2. Is God his Father?
  3. Is Jesus a matroyka?
 
What is a “matroyka”? Do you mean “matryoshka”? The famous Russian nesting-dolls?
 
So,
  1. Yes - see the creeds
  2. Yes, but before time has any meaning - see the creeds
  3. the jury is out pending what us meant by “matroyka”
Mormons seem to struggle with the following:

Time is created.
Space is created.
Matter is created.

Someone who is born before time exists or is measured cannot be said to have come “after” his father. It has no meaning.

Also, you, living in time, are born after your father, and this is like (but not the same as) Jesus being born of his Father (before all ages). Human relations are like God, but not the other way round.
 
It’s also important to note that God the Father’s fatherhood of Jesus is not the same thing as human fatherhood of human children. The Word of God (Logos) was never born or created but has existed for all eternity, co-equal with the Father and the Holy Spirit. The names of Word and Son, Father, and Spirit describe the relationships that exist between the Persons of God to each other, not the origins of the Persons of God. The Word (Logos) became flesh when “The Holy Ghost [came] upon [Mary], and the power of the Highest…overshadow[ed] [her].” (Luke 1:35) Thus we see “the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.” (John 1:14) and we know Him as Jesus. In this way God sired Jesus Christ, the God-Man, into time, into humanity, through his chosen servant, the Blessed Virgin Mary via the Incarnation of His Eternal Word.
 
Janderich said:
Then let me ask a couple of simple questions…
  1. Did Jesus exist before being born here on earth?
  2. Is God his Father?
  3. Is Jesus a matroyka?
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He is fully God and fully man, as God He is eternal and not created, as man He is created, His human nature was created when he was conceived otherwise He would not be fully man.
 
Janderich said:
Then let me ask a couple of simple questions…
  1. Did Jesus exist before being born here on earth?
  2. Is God his Father?
  3. Is Jesus a matroyka?
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Problem is that Mormons seem to re-define key words such as:

Time,space and matter.

Guess what? God who is eternal does not exist in time,space and matter. We exist in time and God exists in eternity. Get it? God created time,space and matter,not vice versa.
 
So if God has or had a father and this is the god the Mormons worship, wouldn’t it be safe to say you are worshipping multiple gods? So how do Mormons call themselves Christians when you are told by God “not to have any others gods before me” yet believe in other gods and that Mormon men will become gods themselves? Also, if smith became a god then you worship multiple gods? Mormons= non-Christian. Very confusing stuff.
 
Janderich said:
Then let me ask a couple of simple questions…
  1. Did Jesus exist before being born here on earth?
  2. Is God his Father?
  3. Is Jesus a matroyka?
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Jesus is.God. God has no beginning or end.

You are.not God. You have a beginning. Jesus, who is God, has made it possible for you to have no end.
 
RebeccaJ said:
Jesus is.God. God has no beginning or end.

You are.not God. You have a beginning. Jesus, who is God, has made it possible for you to have no end.
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That is the whole problem with Mormons. They have a total different definition for specific terms. They claim otherwise,but their comments prove it.
 
MattofTexas said:
Hi! I wanted to ask a question of former and current LDS, or others who are well acquainted with LDS beliefs and inquire about Mormon theology concerning God and gods:

I know that historically LDS leaders have taught “As man is, God once was; as God is, man may become.”, but I wanted to ask, does this mean that the LDS believe there were gods formed before God the Father, such as His own father god, His grandfather god, etc.? So in LDS belief is God not truly eternal (without beginning and end) as both being divine and simply being self-existent? I realize that LDS don’t worship any God except Heavenly Father through Jesus Christ and the Holy Ghost, the Godhead, but I was curious as to Mormon theology about the existence of other divinities, and our world and God in the overall continuum?

Thanks,
Matt
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Most definitely.
 
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