Do Mormons beleive there were/are gods before God?

[TexanKnight]

one of the funniest conversations I ever had with a Mormon was when he said, “I just cannot accept or understand a God that always just “was”. There MUST be a beginning.”

I said, “ok. If your god had a father and his god had a father and his god had a father and so on and so on, where did the very first god come from?”

He looked at me blankly at walked away.

 

[Miriam1947]

Exactly. They cannot get to first cause because they cannot get beyond human understanding. So they must have a man-god; it’s the only thing that fits their ‘theology’ because they can’t wrap their brains around a mystery. They have to try to figure it out because somehow humans must have all the answers.

Except when doctrine changes or questions are asked and then it’s: “We’ll know that later when we go to the CK.” And the shelf gets heavier and heavier and they leave Mormonism and unfortunately many times end up agnostic or atheist.

 

[catholic-rcia]

This thread is WAY out of context. As a studious, life-long practicing member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, I can confidently say that this talk about multiple gods/Gods is irrelevant to us here and now. We worship the one and ONLY true God, even our Eternal Heavenly Father. Period. End of discussion. Speculation feeds sensationalism which is dishonesty.

If I wanted to know about what Mormons believe regarding the nature of God, I would actually go to lds.org and start reading; but ONLY if I were sincerely wanting to get an accurate picture of LDS beliefs in their right context. Since the LDS faith rests squarely on the story and testimony of Joseph Smith, here is a good place to begin:
lds.org/scriptures/pgp/js-h/1?lang=eng

It is interesting to note that young Joseph Smith was utterly confused by all the contention between the various Christian religions. Let us right here and now expand that to today where we have hundreds of sects and denominations of every kind.

What standard are we going to use to determine what makes the Catholic interpretation of the Bible so unique or special beyond any other faith: the Methodists, Baptists, Lutherans, JW’s, etc. and so forth? Same Bible yet so many interpretations. Who has the authority to determine which are correct and which are false?

I say that the answer Joseph Smith received on that spring day in 1820 made everything much more simple.

Baptized Catholic in 1999 in Logan Utah. I don’t see any dishonesty here. I think Catholic answers should make a page that has all of this point by point. Getting each fact right. It does matter if you think you can move up a ladder.

“We worship the one and ONLY true God, even our Eternal Heavenly Father”
Saying your god is the only true god, one out of many gods is completely contrary to all of Christianity. You have to did deep and this website is a great place to start.

My site website came out of the love that I discovered in Christ Jesus…soon after my own Conversion to Christ and His Church.
This is a story about a parts of my own journey to the Catholic Church
utahmission.com/Forgive.html
www.utahmission.com

 

[gazelam]

Mormons seem to struggle with the following:

Time is created.
Space is created.
Matter is created.

We most certainly do. Between modern revelation stating that the elements are eternal and scholarly research showing that the doctrine of “creatio ex nihilo” is an early theological innovation, what other conclusion could we possibly draw?

Creatio ex nihilo appeared suddenly in the latter half of the second century c.e. Not only did creatio ex nihilo lack precedent, it stood in firm opposition to all the philosophical schools of the Greco-Roman world. As we have seen, the doctrine was not forced upon the Christian community by their revealed tradition, either in Biblical texts or the Early Jewish interpretation of them. As we will also see it was not a position attested in the New Testament doctrine or even sub-apostolic writings. It was a position taken by the apologists of the late second century, Tatian and Theophilus, and developed by various ecclesiastical writers thereafter, by Irenaeus, Tertullian, and Origen. Creatio ex nihilo represents an innovation in the interpretive traditions of revelation and cannot be explained merely as a continuation of tradition.

James N. Hubler, “Creatio ex Nihilo: Matter, Creation, and the Body in Classical and Christian Philosophy through Aquinas” (PhD diss., University of Pennsylvania, 1995), 107–8

 

[TexanKnight]

Exactly. They cannot get to first cause because they cannot get beyond human understanding. So they must have a man-god; it’s the only thing that fits their ‘theology’ because they can’t wrap their brains around a mystery. They have to try to figure it out because somehow humans must have all the answers.

Except when doctrine changes or questions are asked and then it’s: “We’ll know that later when we go to the CK.” And the shelf gets heavier and heavier and they leave Mormonism and unfortunately many times end up agnostic or atheist.

that is the problem with most heresies. They try to put God into a little box within their understanding.

 

[Strevel]

At times I do not comprehend Mormons. One can present their own teachings and they respond as they don’t teach what you provided?

In all politeness to the Mormons, their beliefs do not even make sense even to them. Why would God tell you something, then make it a non sequitur so that you do not understand it! It could be compared to giving you a gallon jug and then only providing you with a quart of milk… why do it in a certain way if it does not work. If God, in his wisdom and power, informs you of something it will make sense. When things do not make sense it is the man equation that is the problem. It is not God that is a problem. Mormons beliefs, practices, and obvious obfuscations (even obvious to them) do not make sense. They are made by man. We played word games, used sales tactics and were trained in these. MAN (Satan) is the problem in their beliefs. They are a car with square wheels. They tell you to pray about it, the wheels are still square and it does not work. THAT is why they do not make sense. No amount of prayer will fix that abysmal fact.

Don, was a Mormon, now a Catholic and firm believer in the RC faith. No apologies.

 

[FrankLJ]

Thanks for the response, there are several things to consider here. The direct quote above from Brigham Young (I think it is) seemed to say that regular babies are produced in Mormon heaven. But I understood that it was only spirit children that were produced; so as to ensoul human children born on your own planet, the one you get to start when you are exalted enough to be God of your own world. If babies of both flesh and spirit are born in Mormon heaven, what do you do with them?

 

[FrankLJ]

Interesting that Mormons can quote the Journal of Discourses to clarify some point of LDS doctrine, but they cry foul when we do it. Odd…

This is the bit I am referring to.

 

[FrankLJ]

Janderich:
Second to last in post #45 is what is referred to. I must learn to do that answer within quotes trick.

 

[FrankLJ]

zaffiroborant:
What’s plain and obvious is that no one can be the literal parent of an eternal being. It is impossible for God the Father to be our literal parent if we existed eternally along side him. He could have fashioned the human matroyka that Mormonism puts forward but he can not be our literal father.

If the spirit always exists, then (Mormon God) just claims him, and thats what ‘being a father’ is. Now another doctrine says He has a flesh and bone body, as does the wife he has the spirit child with. The claiming process seems to be that birth; process the existing spirit through the mother and father and its His. The question then is: how do flesh parents have spirit children? There is an attempt to to answer this later in the thread, but it seems to say that the children are flesh and spirit, not spirit only. That being so, how do the human babies on earth get ensouled? Cause the birth in heaven process is supposed to supply the new babies on earth with souls.

I am trying to avoid both flippancy and (what might be considered by some) sacrilege. I hope I am succeeding. I only want to be sure I grasp the teaching.

 

[Miriam1947]

Second to last in post #45 is what is referred to. I must learn to do that answer within quotes trick.

Just hit the quote button on the post you are quoting and then remove that which you are not going to comment on. Or something like that.

 

[FrankLJ]

Just hit the quote button on the post you are quoting and then remove that which you are not going to comment on. Or something like that.

Thanks, but in post #45 he answered all the questions within the quote, no post below it. A different color, too. Useful and space saving. But it seems to resist being quoted in turn. Where are all the tech instructions for posting here, please?

 

[Miriam1947]

Thanks, but in post #45 he answered all the questions within the quote, no post below it. A different color, too. Useful and space saving. But it seems to resist being quoted in turn. Where are all the tech instructions for posting here, please?

Oh, I see. That is why other posters would rather that the answers are not posted into the actual quote. I guess you could just select and paste the whole thing rather than use the quote button but that does cause a bit more work.

I’ll look around for instructions and post the link.

Try these.

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=837109

forums.catholic-questions.org/showthread.php?t=19771

 

[Janderich]

If the spirit always exists, then (Mormon God) just claims him, and thats what ‘being a father’ is. Now another doctrine says He has a flesh and bone body, as does the wife he has the spirit child with. The claiming process seems to be that birth; process the existing spirit through the mother and father and its His.

I think being a Father has to do with loving, teaching, and helping another progress this is what our Father in Heaven did for us. Now before being born as spirits the “claiming” process (if it is indeed "claiming at all) is unknown.

FrankLJ:

The question then is: how do flesh parents have spirit children? There is an attempt to to answer this later in the thread, but it seems to say that the children are flesh and spirit, not spirit only. That being so, how do the human babies on earth get ensouled? Cause the birth in heaven process is supposed to supply the new babies on earth with souls.

I am trying to avoid both flippancy and (what might be considered by some) sacrilege. I hope I am succeeding. I only want to be sure I grasp the teaching.

I think there may be some confusion here. As LDS we believe there are different stages of progression, these have been called estates. In what is called our first estate we were born as spirits. We grew and progressed for perhaps eons of time. We reached a level where we could not progress much further. We then began our second estate. This estate involves our spirit being “clothed” with a body. We are now living in our second estate. We face new challenges through our physical bodies and have been placed here on earth to overcome them. At some point, if we continue to grow we will have progressed to the end of this estate and will move on to our third estate.

So Brigham Young here is talking about our first and second estates. Here on earth we only have power to create temporal bodies (ie. second estate mortal bodies). However, a glorified exalted being like God has power to create both physical bodies and spiritual bodies. I understand this to mean that God can create first estate bodies (ie. spirits) or second estate bodies (ie. physical bodies). However, he does not create both at the same time. Progression is eternal and a person always begins as a spirit and then progresses to gain a body.

Here is a little more of the quote:

Another item: We have not the power in the flesh to create and bring forth or produce a spirit; but we have the power to produce a temporal body. The germ of this, God has placed within us. And when our spirits receive our bodies, and through our faithfulness we are worthy to be crowned, we will then receive authority to produce both spirit and body. But these keys we cannot receive in the flesh.

 

[TexanKnight]

I think being a Father has to do with loving, teaching, and helping another progress this is what our Father in Heaven did for us. Now before being born as spirits the “claiming” process (if it is indeed "claiming at all) is unknown.

I think there may be some confusion here. As LDS we believe there are different stages of progression, these have been called estates. In what is called our first estate we were born as spirits. We grew and progressed for perhaps eons of time. We reached a level where we could not progress much further. We then began our second estate. This estate involves our spirit being “clothed” with a body. We are now living in our second estate. We face new challenges through our physical bodies and have been placed here on earth to overcome them. At some point, if we continue to grow we will have progressed to the end of this estate and will move on to our third estate.

So Brigham Young here is talking about our first and second estates. Here on earth we only have power to create temporal bodies (ie. second estate mortal bodies). However, a glorified exalted being like God has power to create both physical bodies and spiritual bodies. I understand this to mean that God can create first estate bodies (ie. spirits) or second estate bodies (ie. physical bodies). However, he does not create both at the same time. Progression is eternal and a person always begins as a spirit and then progresses to gain a body.

Here is a little more of the quote:

After BY said God had actual sex with Mary, commanded that people be killed, said Adam was our God and came up with blood oaths, I pretty much stopped counting on him for guidance.

Maybe you should , too

 

[Strevel]

No impoliteness intended, there is confusion, but it is not on the part of the Catholics here that were Mormons. You have restated to us the very things we have stated. except we have used the older words that Salt Lake has tried to wash from the language. You are not using the words Pre-existance and all that they mean. As you have noticed, Salt lake is in the process of changing, literally changing, what the Mormons believe. They are using new words and these new words have new definitions for the older ideas that they are trying to distance themselves from in this “protestant-ization” process.

There is a long line of Gods going back to the Big Bang. and forward to the recollection of all stellar matter into a black hole where there will be another big bang. If there is a confused state it exists within the changing information and face saving act that you have been given, and I say that in as polite and respectful form as possible.
I was a MOrmon, have Mormon friends and the beliefs of just 10 years ago and the beliefs now are not the same! The Temples were where a Man and Woman went to be sealed so that they could become Gods with their children. He would be sealed to other women that were not married so that they could become Godesses as well. We won’t get into the calling your wife from the grave by the power of the Priesthood on judgement day, thats just to creepy for the people here to understand.

Mormons still DO believe that men and women do become Gods if they have kept all the commandments, given 10, not 9 but 10% 0f their money to the Church as well as tithes, offerings and contribute to the Missionary Funds, gone to the Temple and been sealed, etc… Yes, the Mormon beliefs are the same and have not changed. What has happened is a new form of advertising and presentation to others. But, the beliefs are the same. The Temples, the cutting of the throat, the fushing of the bowels, all have been changed to give a better presentation to people. Gosh, its a marketing change! And I thought it was via revelation…

Don, was a Mormon, served a Mission, and will stand right up and tell you the truth.

I think being a Father has to do with loving, teaching, and helping another progress this is what our Father in Heaven did for us. Now before being born as spirits the “claiming” process (if it is indeed "claiming at all) is unknown.

I think there may be some confusion here. As LDS we believe there are different stages of progression, these have been called estates. In what is called our first estate we were born as spirits. We grew and progressed for perhaps eons of time. We reached a level where we could not progress much further. We then began our second estate. This estate involves our spirit being “clothed” with a body. We are now living in our second estate. We face new challenges through our physical bodies and have been placed here on earth to overcome them. At some point, if we continue to grow we will have progressed to the end of this estate and will move on to our third estate.

So Brigham Young here is talking about our first and second estates. Here on earth we only have power to create temporal bodies (ie. second estate mortal bodies). However, a glorified exalted being like God has power to create both physical bodies and spiritual bodies. I understand this to mean that God can create first estate bodies (ie. spirits) or second estate bodies (ie. physical bodies). However, he does not create both at the same time. Progression is eternal and a person always begins as a spirit and then progresses to gain a body.

Here is a little more of the quote:

 

[Strevel]

BY (Brigham Young) was not right in the head and gave breath and light to most of the strange and wierd beliefs that the Mormons have today. He even defined, speaking as Prophet, the people that reside on the moon! I mean, c’mon now! Thats almost as bad as JS translating a common burial scroll, with all the impoertance of a funeral program, stating that it was written by Abraham and it is now…part of Mormon Scriptire! Its a ball of yarn of “Stuff”.

We have received the same revelation there TexanKnight .

Don

After BY said God had actual sex with Mary, commanded that people be killed, said Adam was our God and came up with blood oaths, I pretty much stopped counting on him for guidance.

Maybe you should , too

 

[Porknpie]

After BY said God had actual sex with Mary, commanded that people be killed, said Adam was our God and came up with blood oaths, I pretty much stopped counting on him for guidance.

Maybe you should , too

Tex,

When you were Mormon, how did you intellectually handle BY having over 50 wives and his teaching that the Sun and Moon were inhabited?

PnP

 

[TexanKnight]

Tex,

When you were Mormon, how did you intellectually handle BY having over 50 wives and his teaching that the Sun and Moon were inhabited?

PnP

Well, to be honest, the polygamy was not a big issue. I was taught that it was due to so many LDS men being killed and the women needed cared for.

I was never taught about the other. I was never taught the really bad stuff the lds church taught.

It was finding all that out that led me away. Us smart folks leave when we discover it.

 

[Lochias]

When you were Mormon, how did you intellectually handle BY having over 50 wives and his teaching that the Sun and Moon were inhabited?

I’d bet a hundred bucks that the Mormons on this thread won’t touch this question with a ten-foot pole.