Do Mormons beleive there were/are gods before God?

[Judas_Thaddeus]

Tsk, you and your “ontologically!”

I take it you care nothing then about what’s true. Ontology is the philosophic-
al study of the nature of being, becoming, existence, or reality, as well as the
basic categories of being and their relations.

However that is like a Mormon, Facts mean nothing,
Truth means nothing, Post-modernism is Everything.

 

[LivingWaters7]

Unless some one can tell how they interpret Luke 2, verses 40 and 52, I’m going to assume it’s because you don’t want to admit there’s another viewpoint worth considering.

Well we know what happens when you assume…

The answer was already given in this post:

"Catholics and other orthodox Christians believe that when God the Son Incarnated, He was both fully God, and fully man. Therefore, He could learn, grow, and be a human, since He was fully human. However, He did not grow in Divinity, since He was already fully Divine (and never was not-God). "

As Catholics, we believe that Jesus Christ was both fully God and fully man while here. He certainly increased in wisdom and stature (noting that some translations give “stature” as “years”), as any man would. However in His Divinity, there was nothing for Him to learn, since He was God (and for Catholics, there are no gradations of Godhood which one progresses through).

Further, when those verses are read in context, one sees that it has nothing to do with Jesus becoming more God, or progressing in Divinity (as if He was less God/Divine prior). Is that how you read them?

 

[LivingWaters7]

So ontologically there is no difference. Therefore Mormons believe in many gods.

Latter-day Saints don’t believe there is an ontological difference between man and God. Simply, they believe that man and God are of the same “species” if you will, the difference being one of progression.

 

[Porknpie]

LW7, I think you are rushing to judgement on what you have read and are not understanding. Luke says that. as a youth, Jesus gew from grace to grace. How do you understand that?

Check Luke 2, especially verses 40 and 52.

Here’s both the Douay Rheims and New Jerusalem translations for verses 40 and 52. In his divine nature, Jesus was full of grace, completely. Completely, 100% full. However, in his human nature, he emptied himself and grew in understanding and grace.

And the child grew, and waxed strong, full of wisdom; and the grace of God was in him.

And as the child grew to maturity, he was filled with wisdom; and God’s favour was with him.

And 52…

And Jesus advanced in wisdom, and age, and grace with God and men.

And Jesus increased in wisdom, in stature, and in favour with God and with people.

 

[Strevel]

With all due respect, politeness and directness, you cannot have both sides as you want. You cannot say that you believe what JS said as your Prophet, and leave the strange things to “be learned by the power of the spirit at some future date by you”.
Sorry, JS equally said both and you get both. The reason what he said sounds wierd is because it is wierd and not even related in its apogee or paragee to what is normal, to Christ! Christs word does not change. This wierd stuff ( and remember i was a Mormon so I know what you are going through right now) is not explainable, it really is as wierd and unChristian as it appears. You cannot accept one and totally discount the other. You get all of it.

I do understand what you are saying about defining core doctrines. They help others understand what a church believes. However, the problem arises when truth is manifest and yet cannot be excepted because of these creeds. Joseph at one time wrote: I believe Joseph is not attacking creeds in and of themselves. He is attacking the limits they setup which prevent people from discovering truth.

A fair example might be in relation to this other thread about Mormon’s being Christian. Some creeds would say Christians must believe in the Trinity. Based on these creeds people then say Mormon’s do not believe in Christ. Thus the creeds have set up a stake and others have tried to use those creeds to limit truth.

Mormons believe in something that they themselves created that is closer to a Hindu God than Christ. Mormons created a Diety that has none of the characteristics that traditional Christianity has. Heck, when I joined the LDS Church we did not consider ourselves Christians at all, we were the “Restoration”, but never Christian. Funny how things and their application changes with the social politics (not revelation) of time.
The Bible that you believe was translated incorrectly and had to be corrected by JS does not state anywhere about billions of Gods, sons of these Gods going down to save their worlds, physical mothers giving birth to countless spirit babies, etc… THAT is the defining parameters of the LDS Christ that they created and that the LDS perpetuate. They are ashamed to state it now as they did in the past, so they took a different angle in their presentation and leave out the Plan of Eternal Progression all together.
Sorry, but the thing that you worship is not of the Bible but a hydra that is not even Christian. Now, I am prepared for you to come back with your testimony. This is normal acceptable response when you encounter a wall that you cannot communicate with. But your emotional attatchment to an idea called a testimony does not change the reality that it is not christ, it does not eminate from Christ and it also does not even sound Christian.
Now, Man becoming God is downplayed, but they cannot do away with sealings and Baptismd for the Dead. I’ll bet they wish they could tho. They’d be as gone as the Adam God and other Doctrines that the LDS leader taught that they are trying to distance themselves from today.

Don, was LDS and finally went back to the RC Church…thank goodness.

 

[Strevel]

Not that you need my agreement, but I do agree entirely with your statement. Mormons believe that there is no difference between man and God species wise. He just went to a Mission, to the Temple and took out endowments (before the ceremony had the bowels gushing out by others and others cutting your throat) was taken out??? They believe that he kept the commandments and his wives (countless, without number, no enumeration is large enough) are Godesses.
You could not think this stuff up. Someone had to actually STATE it!

Don

Latter-day Saints don’t believe there is an ontological difference between man and God. Simply, they believe that man and God are of the same “species” if you will, the difference being one of progression.

 

[Janderich]

Strevel:

The Bible that you believe was translated incorrectly and had to be corrected by JS does not state anywhere about billions of Gods, sons of these Gods going down to save their worlds, physical mothers giving birth to countless spirit babies, etc… THAT is the defining parameters of the LDS Christ that they created and that the LDS perpetuate. They are ashamed to state it now as they did in the past, so they took a different angle in their presentation and leave out the Plan of Eternal Progression all together.
Sorry, but the thing that you worship is not of the Bible but a hydra that is not even Christian. Now, I am prepared for you to come back with your testimony. This is normal acceptable response when you encounter a wall that you cannot communicate with. But your emotional attatchment to an idea called a testimony does not change the reality that it is not christ, it does not eminate from Christ and it also does not even sound Christian.

I could bear testimony on this matter and my testimony would be true. But you have more testimonies than mine. For Paul says there are many gods and many Lords (1 Cor 8:5). And the Psalmist, “I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High” (Psalm 82:6). And Jesus himself confirms, “Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?” (John 10:35). Will you also reject these testimonies? If so, it does not matter what another person says to you.

 

[taylorf]

For Paul says there are many gods and many Lords (1 Cor 8:5).

Great example of quoting out of context. Read the verses around it. He’s actually refuting the idea of the belief of many gods.

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

I could bear testimony on this matter and my testimony would be true.

How do you know that it is true?

But you have more testimonies than mine.

So? Oh wait…

For Paul says there are many gods and many Lords (1 Cor 8:5).

No he doesn’t, no wait, you’re Mormon,
you don’t respond to what he said right
before: But as for the meats that are sacrificed
to idols, we know that an idol is nothing
in the world, and that there is no God
but ONE.

• (1 Corinthians 8:4)
  Never mind what Isaiah said, right?Ye are my witnesses, saith the Lord, and my servant whom
  I have chosen: that ye may know and believe me, and un—
  derstand that I Am He: before me there was no God formed,
  neither shall there be after me.
• (Isaiah 43:10) -FROM THE LDS WEBSITE!-]

And the Psalmist, “I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High” (Psalm 82:6). And Jesus himself confirms, “Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?” (John 10:35). Will you also reject these testimonies? If so, it does not matter what another person says to you.

Oh but look at the next verse(!):“But you like men shall die: and
shall fall like one of the princes.”

• (Psalm 82:7) (-It’s on the LDS site too, lol-)
  In ancient times, certain men, Judges, Kings, Prophets, etc who stood
  representing God were called gods, but were not by any means Divine.
  The Psalm is talking about unrighteous men who abuse the authorities
  given to them by God.

When Jesus cited Psalm 82, Jesus is bringing charges against his ac–
cusers, identifying them as Wicked Judges, abusing their authority and
office assigned to them by God.

Where those the
testimonies you
were speaking of?

 

[Lochias]

Great example of quoting out of context. Read the verses around it. He’s actually refuting the idea of the belief of many gods.

100 bucks says that Janderich will ignore this information entirely.

 

[TexanKnight]

I could bear testimony on this matter and my testimony would be true. But you have more testimonies than mine. For Paul says there are many gods and many Lords (1 Cor 8:5). And the Psalmist, “I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High” (Psalm 82:6). And Jesus himself confirms, “Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?” (John 10:35). Will you also reject these testimonies? If so, it does not matter what another person says to you.

God says He is the ONE God and He knows no other.

Gonna call God a liar?

 

[Porknpie]

I could bear testimony on this matter and my testimony would be true. But you have more testimonies than mine. For Paul says there are many gods and many Lords (1 Cor 8:5). And the Psalmist, “I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are children of the most High” (Psalm 82:6). And Jesus himself confirms, “Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?” (John 10:35). Will you also reject these testimonies? If so, it does not matter what another person says to you.

Janderich,

You can not quote 1 Corinthians 8:5 without quoting 8:6.

4 So about the eating of meat sacrificed to idols: we know that “there is no idol in the world,” and that “there is no God but one.”c
5 Indeed, even though there are so-called gods in heaven and on earth (there are, to be sure, many “gods” and many “lords”),
6** yet for us there is one God,** the Father,
from whom all things are and for whom we exist,
and one Lord, Jesus Christ,
through whom all things are and through whom we exist.

And the rest of John

34 Jesus answered them; Is it not written in your law: *I have said, you are gods?
35 If he called them gods, to whom the word of God was spoken, and the Scripture cannot be broken;
36 Do you say of him, whom the Father hath sanctified and sent into the world, Thou blasphemest; because I said, I am the Son of God?
37 If I do not the works of my Father, believe me not.
38 But if I do: though you will not believe me, believe the works, that you may know and believe that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.

Jesus and the Father are one. And, not simply one in thought, they are two persons, plus the Holy Spirit, the persons in one being.

Here’s an article from Notre Dame on John 10:35.

 

[Janderich]

How do you know that it is true?

So? Oh wait…

No he doesn’t, no wait, you’re Mormon,
you don’t respond to what he said right
before: But as for the meats that are sacrificed
to idols, we know that an idol is nothing
in the world, and that there is no God
but ONE.

• (1 Corinthians 8:4)

Indeed he does begin by talking about idols. But it is clear from the text that he is acknowledging a different truth in part of verse five. Let me start by taking out the parenthetical comment, he says, “though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, but to us there is but one God, the Father…”. In other words, “Even if there are other God’s in heaven or earth to us there is but one God.” But note now the parenthetical comment, “as there be gods many, and lords many.” Paul here is simply confirming the truth that there are many god’s and lords in heaven. He is saying that even if there are other god’s, as indeed there are, to us there is but one. This is exactly what I have been saying this whole thread. There are other god’s but we worship only one God the Father. But you will not accept this as you will also not accept Joseph’s word on the matter:

Paul says there are Gods many and Lords many. I want to set it forth in plain and simple manner; but to us there is but one God - that is pertaining to us; and he is in all and through all. But if Joseph Smith says there are Gods many and Lords many, they cry, "Away with him! …Paul, if Joseph Smith is a blasphemer, you are. I say there are Gods many and Lords many, but to us only one, and we are to be in subjection to that one, and no man can limit the bounds or eternal existence of eternal time. Hath he beheld the eternal world, and is he authorized to say that there is only one God? He makes himself a fool if he thinks or says so, and there is an end of his career or progress in knowledge. He cannot obtain all knowledge, for he has sealed up the gate to it. (TPJS p 316-317)

Judas Thaddeus:

Oh but look at the next verse(!):“But you like men shall die: and
shall fall like one of the princes.”

• (Psalm 82:7) (-It’s on the LDS site too, lol-)
  In ancient times, certain men, Judges, Kings, Prophets, etc who stood
  representing God were called gods, but were not by any means Divine.
  The Psalm is talking about unrighteous men who abuse the authorities
  given to them by God.

When Jesus cited Psalm 82, Jesus is bringing charges against his ac–
cusers, identifying them as Wicked Judges, abusing their authority and
office assigned to them by God.

Where those the testimonies you were speaking of?

Let’s go through Jesus’ statement, for your explanation is clearly strained. You are telling me that when Jesus says, “Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?” that he is trying to point out how the leaders of the Jews abuse there authority? This is so clearly not the case. For Jesus is using this scripture as a comparison to himself as the “Son of God”. Forget your bias, do not assume you know what the text is telling you and read it with new eyes.

This section is about Jesus statement, “I and my Father are one”. After saying this the Jews picked up rocks to stone him. And they say clearly they are stoning him for blasphemy, “because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God”. Now Jesus makes a comparison. He compares the statement, “I said, ye are gods” to himself when he said he was the “Son of God”. Now here is the point. The Jews are going to stone him for calling himself the Son of God yet the scriptures say “Ye are gods”. If the word of the Lord comes to some who are called gods why would they stone Jesus who is simply calling himself a Son of God? The interpretation is plain.

Lochias, keep your $100 dollars and instead take another look at these scriptures without preconception. I think we will both come out ahead.

 

[TexanKnight]

Indeed he does begin by talking about idols. But it is clear from the text that he is acknowledging a different truth in part of verse five. Let me start by taking out the parenthetical comment, he says, “though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, but to us there is but one God, the Father…”. In other words, “Even if there are other God’s in heaven or earth to us there is but one God.” But note now the parenthetical comment, “as there be gods many, and lords many.” Paul here is simply confirming the truth that there are many god’s and lords in heaven. He is saying that even if there are other god’s, as indeed there are, to us there is but one. This is exactly what I have been saying this whole thread. There are other god’s but we worship only one God the Father. But you will not accept this as you will also not accept Joseph’s word on the matter:

Let’s go through Jesus’ statement, for your explanation is clearly strained. You are telling me that when Jesus says, “Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?” that he is trying to point out how the leaders of the Jews abuse there authority? This is so clearly not the case. For Jesus is using this scripture as a comparison to himself as the “Son of God”. Forget your bias, do not assume you know what the text is telling you and read it with new eyes.

This section is about Jesus statement, “I and my Father are one”. After saying this the Jews picked up rocks to stone him. And they say clearly they are stoning him for blasphemy, “because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God”. Now Jesus makes a comparison. He compares the statement, “I said, ye are gods” to himself when he said he was the “Son of God”. Now here is the point. The Jews are going to stone him for calling himself the Son of God yet the scriptures say “Ye are gods”. If the word of the Lord comes to some who are called gods why would they stone Jesus who is simply calling himself a Son of God? The interpretation is plain.

Lochias, keep your $100 dollars and instead take another look at these scriptures without preconception. I think we will both come out ahead.

how can that be when you are already so far behind? I understand why you ignore my question. Hard to do that and contradict God…

“there is no one like Yahweh our God.” Exodus 8:10
“Yahweh, He is God; there is no other besides Him.” Deuteronomy 4:35
“Yahweh, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other.” Deuteronomy 4:39
“See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me” Deuteronomy 32:39
“Hear, O Israel! Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is one [echad]!” Deuteronomy 6:4
“You are great, O Lord God; for there is none like You, and there is no God besides You” 2 Samuel 7:22
“For who is God, besides Yahweh? And who is a rock, besides our God?” 2 Samuel 22:32
“Yahweh is God; there is no one else.” 1 Kings 8:60
“O Lord, there is none like You, nor is there any God besides You” 1 Chronicles 17:20
“For who is God, but Yahweh? And who is a rock, except our God” Psalm 18:31
“Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me.” Isaiah 43:10
“'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me.” Isaiah 44:6
“Is there any God besides Me, Or is there any other Rock? I know of none.” Isaiah 44:8
“I am Yahweh, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God.” Isaiah 45:5
“Surely, God is with you, and there is none else, No other God.” Isaiah 45:14
“I am Yahweh, and there is none else.” Isaiah 45:18
“Is it not I, Yahweh? And there is no other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Savior; There is none except Me.” Isaiah 45:21
“there is no God but one” 1 Corinthians 8:4
“yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.” 1 Corinthians 8:6

 

[Lochias]

Lochias, keep your $100 dollars and instead take another look at these scriptures without preconception. I think we will both come out ahead.

You mean without logic and without context? No thanks. You’re free to lie to yourself if you want.

 

[Lochias]

how can that be when you are already so far behind? I understand why you ignore my question. Hard to do that and contradict God…

“there is no one like Yahweh our God.” Exodus 8:10
“Yahweh, He is God; there is no other besides Him.” Deuteronomy 4:35
“Yahweh, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other.” Deuteronomy 4:39
“See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me” Deuteronomy 32:39
“Hear, O Israel! Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is one [echad]!” Deuteronomy 6:4
“You are great, O Lord God; for there is none like You, and there is no God besides You” 2 Samuel 7:22
“For who is God, besides Yahweh? And who is a rock, besides our God?” 2 Samuel 22:32
“Yahweh is God; there is no one else.” 1 Kings 8:60
“O Lord, there is none like You, nor is there any God besides You” 1 Chronicles 17:20
“For who is God, but Yahweh? And who is a rock, except our God” Psalm 18:31
“Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me.” Isaiah 43:10
“'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me.” Isaiah 44:6
“Is there any God besides Me, Or is there any other Rock? I know of none.” Isaiah 44:8
“I am Yahweh, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God.” Isaiah 45:5
“Surely, God is with you, and there is none else, No other God.” Isaiah 45:14
“I am Yahweh, and there is none else.” Isaiah 45:18
“Is it not I, Yahweh? And there is no other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Savior; There is none except Me.” Isaiah 45:21
“there is no God but one” 1 Corinthians 8:4
“yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.” 1 Corinthians 8:6

How about it, Janderich?

 

[RebeccaJ]

Indeed he does begin by talking about idols. But it is clear from the text that he is acknowledging a different truth in part of verse five. Let me start by taking out the parenthetical comment, he says, “though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, but to us there is but one God, the Father…”. In other words, “Even if there are other God’s in heaven or earth to us there is but one God.” But note now the parenthetical comment, “as there be gods many, and lords many.” Paul here is simply confirming the truth that there are many god’s and lords in heaven. He is saying that even if there are other god’s, as indeed there are, to us there is but one. This is exactly what I have been saying this whole thread. There are other god’s but we worship only one God the Father. But you will not accept this as you will also not accept Joseph’s word on the matter:

Let’s go through Jesus’ statement, for your explanation is clearly strained. You are telling me that when Jesus says, “Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?” that he is trying to point out how the leaders of the Jews abuse there authority? This is so clearly not the case. For Jesus is using this scripture as a comparison to himself as the “Son of God”. Forget your bias, do not assume you know what the text is telling you and read it with new eyes.

This section is about Jesus statement, “I and my Father are one”. After saying this the Jews picked up rocks to stone him. And they say clearly they are stoning him for blasphemy, “because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God”. Now Jesus makes a comparison. He compares the statement, “I said, ye are gods” to himself when he said he was the “Son of God”. Now here is the point. The Jews are going to stone him for calling himself the Son of God yet the scriptures say “Ye are gods”. If the word of the Lord comes to some who are called gods why would they stone Jesus who is simply calling himself a Son of God? The interpretation is plain.

Lochias, keep your $100 dollars and instead take another look at these scriptures without preconception. I think we will both come out ahead.

My friend, idols were the gods of pagan Rome. Their belief was the spirit of the gods dwelled in the made object.

If I say to a Hindu friend, for you there are many gods but for me there is one. Does that mean I believe all of the Hindu gods exist? Do you believe the pagan gods of Rome exist? Or the gods of the Canaanites in the OT?

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

Indeed he does begin by talking about idols. But it is clear from the text that he is acknowledging a different truth in part of verse five. Let me start by taking out the parenthetical comment, he says, “though there be that are called gods, whether in heaven or in earth, but to us there is but one God, the Father…”. In other words, “Even if there are other God’s in heaven or earth to us there is but one God.” But note now the parenthetical comment, “as there be gods many, and lords many.” Paul here is simply confirming the truth that there are many god’s and lords in heaven. He is saying that even if there are other god’s, as indeed there are, to us there is but one. This is exactly what I have been saying this whole thread. There are other god’s but we worship only one God the Father. But you will not accept this as you will also not accept Joseph’s word on the matter:

Well you are correct, I don’t accept the commentaries of a false prophet on
Scripture, because that is not what Paul is saying, Smith is putting words
into his mouth. You can’t just isolate verses and come with your own inter-
pretations for it, you need to take the Bible as a whole. On the other hand,
Mormons deem the Bible as insufficient, one of the reasons they cannot
be counted as Christians.

Let’s go through Jesus’ statement, for your explanation is clearly strained. You are telling me that when Jesus says, “Is it not written in your law, I said, Ye are gods?” that he is trying to point out how the leaders of the Jews abuse there authority? This is so clearly not the case. For Jesus is using this scripture as a comparison to himself as the “Son of God”. Forget your bias, do not assume you know what the text is telling you and read it with new eyes.

No bias, what I gave was good contextual analysis, which
I believe Mormons are not SO great at, because for them,
a verse is an entire context all on its own (which is wrong).
An example of God calling others gods who stand as his
representative can be seen here:The Lord said to Moses, “See, I have made
you like God to Pharaoh, and your brother
Aaron shall be your prophet.”

• (Exodus 7:1)
  Moses didn’t have 30 wives yet, he was still living, no cestialization, but God
  had sent Moses to Pharaoh to carry out God’s will, therefore he was called a
  god. No scholar (real scholar) could ever support the false prophet Smith’s re-
  interpretation of Paul’s words.

This section is about Jesus statement, “I and my Father are one”. After saying this the Jews picked up rocks to stone him. And they say clearly they are stoning him for blasphemy, “because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God”. Now Jesus makes a comparison. He compares the statement, “I said, ye are gods” to himself when he said he was the “Son of God”. Now here is the point. The Jews are going to stone him for calling himself the Son of God yet the scriptures say “Ye are gods”. If the word of the Lord comes to some who are called gods why would they stone Jesus who is simply calling himself a Son of God? The interpretation is plain.

No the interpretation isn’t so plain, it’s only plain because you refuse to let the Bible
(which you regard as weak anyway) to define its own verses. Now “why would they
stone Jesus who is simply calling himself a Son of God?”, because the Jews under-
stood well that THERE IS NOT GOD BUT ONE, and Jesus was suggesting that he
was in fact that same God. How so? If you look in *real *history, you will find that the
Jews in those days had anticipated that God would come himself, but in the form of
a lowly carpenter? That is where the Jews got confused, so were ready to kill Jesus
for what they considered as blasphemy.

Lochias, keep your $100 dollars and instead take another look at these scriptures without preconception. I think we will both come out ahead.

uh…you’re the one with preconceptions, for if you read the Bible for the first
time, UNGUIDED BY YOUR FALSE PROPHETS, you would come to the
same conclusions as we Christians do, that THERE IS NO GOD BUT ONE.
Proof? You just gave me that sample of a sermon given by Joseph Smith.
So you’re already set up by a false prophet to believe in an infinite number
of gods, and with that being YOUR preconception, you read about other gods.

 

[MattofTexas]

My friend, idols were the gods of pagan Rome. Their belief was the spirit of the gods dwelled in the made object.

If I say to a Hindu friend, for you there are many gods but for me there is one. Does that I believe all of the Hindu gods exist? Do you believe the pagan gods of Rome exist? Or the gods of the Canaanites in the OT?

I think this was indeed St. Paul’s intention. It doesn’t make sense that he would suddenly be affirming the existance of many gods and lords in heaven or on earth given the context of previous revelations and scriptures such as the ones TexanKnight posted:

how can that be when you are already so far behind? I understand why you ignore my question. Hard to do that and contradict God…

“there is no one like Yahweh our God.” Exodus 8:10
“Yahweh, He is God; there is no other besides Him.” Deuteronomy 4:35
“Yahweh, He is God in heaven above and on the earth below; there is no other.” Deuteronomy 4:39
“See now that I, I am He, And there is no god besides Me” Deuteronomy 32:39
“Hear, O Israel! Yahweh is our God, Yahweh is one [echad]!” Deuteronomy 6:4
“You are great, O Lord God; for there is none like You, and there is no God besides You” 2 Samuel 7:22
“For who is God, besides Yahweh? And who is a rock, besides our God?” 2 Samuel 22:32
“Yahweh is God; there is no one else.” 1 Kings 8:60
“O Lord, there is none like You, nor is there any God besides You” 1 Chronicles 17:20
“For who is God, but Yahweh? And who is a rock, except our God” Psalm 18:31
“Before Me there was no God formed, And there will be none after Me.” Isaiah 43:10
“'I am the first and I am the last, And there is no God besides Me.” Isaiah 44:6
“Is there any God besides Me, Or is there any other Rock? I know of none.” Isaiah 44:8
“I am Yahweh, and there is no other; Besides Me there is no God.” Isaiah 45:5
“Surely, God is with you, and there is none else, No other God.” Isaiah 45:14
“I am Yahweh, and there is none else.” Isaiah 45:18
“Is it not I, Yahweh? And there is no other God besides Me, A righteous God and a Savior; There is none except Me.” Isaiah 45:21
“there is no God but one” 1 Corinthians 8:4
“yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom are all things and we exist for Him; and one Lord, Jesus Christ, by whom are all things, and we exist through Him.” 1 Corinthians 8:6

I would also add Mark 12:29-34 to the list:

And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord: And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment. And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these. And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he: And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices. And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.

This verse clearly shows the Jewish understanding of the OT scriptures during Jesus’ ministry, and the LORD did not rebuke the scribe or correct him for what he said, but rather told him: “Thou art not far from the Kingdom of God.” I simply see no reason to believe that St. Paul would be departing from this orthodox understanding of the scriptures.

 

[kimg901]

The Spirit is not in the structures of a church but in the hearts of it’s members. Every person is blessed with the spirit of the Lord to some degree. However, it is through the ordinances that we gained the spirit more fully and until we become holy. What limits the spirit is a persons false belief. This false belief may over time begin to effect the ordinances. Until a person cannot see how to gain the spirit more fully and approach God through them.

So then how does one know if their church is true if the Holy Spirit is in everyone? And you should take your own words and seek the truth “What limits the spirit is a persons false belief”. What don’t you understand about a restorationist church? Why did God/Jesus need to restore anything? So they failed? They are liars? Weak maybe? Incompetent? Is this how you see the Lord of all Creation? If you do may God have mercy on all your souls.