Do mormons really believe this?

[deb1]

IN the past I have read that Mormons have two rather strange beliefs.

1, That after death they can become Gods

1. Lucifer and Jesus were brothers

I have to admit that there is some false, but hateful things about Catholics and our beliefs floating around on the web. Perhaps the same is true of Mormons. Although I have known Mormons in the past-always lovely people-I have never had the courage to ask about these particular beliefs. Are these true beliefs of the Mormon church or are they falsehoods spread by anti Mormons?

 

[Brad_Haas]

1. Yes, if they live good Mormon lives and are sealed in the temple to their spouse
2. Yes, they believe that Jesus, Lucifer, and all of us are “spirit children” of the Father; all existed as such before this life, but Lucifer and the devils rebelled and were cast out, while the rest of us went on to be born into this world

 

[tkdnick]

I believe the answer to question #1 will be different depending on who you ask. As far as “official” LDS statements on this, I do not think the LDS church has ever said that. LDS believe in eternal progression. However, what eternal progression means depends on who you ask, and as to my knowledge the LDS church has not come out with an “official” statement.

From everything I have read, the answer to #2 is yes - Jesus and Lucifer (and all of us) are literally spirit brothers and sisters.

 

[Casen]

Both questions are favorite topics of anti-Mormons because presented out of context they are great attention grabbers and raise suspicion. Regarding question #1 I posted this on another thread:

I think it fair to say the LDS concept of becoming a god (little g) is similar to the Catholic doctrine of Sainthood. In other words, to us there is only ONE GOD (big G) but we can become “like” God, our Heavenly Father in some sense (little g). Christ said that his disciples would inherit “all that the Father hath.” However, what that means exactly is just speculation, not official doctrine.

Regarding #2, we believe that God (Our Heavenly Father) created everything, including our spirits. We believe Satan was a spirit son of God who rebelled.

11 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
(Old Testament | Isaiah 14:12 - 15)

25 And this we saw also, and bear record, that an angel of God who was in authority in the presence of God, who rebelled against the Only Begotten Son whom the Father loved and who was in the bosom of the Father, was thrust down from the presence of God and the Son,
26 And was called Perdition, for the heavens wept over him—he was Lucifer, a son of the morning.
27 And we beheld, and lo, he is fallen! is fallen, even a son of the morning!
(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 76:25 - 27)

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.(New Testament | Revelation 12:9)

 

[DeFide]

Casen:

Both questions are favorite topics of anti-Mormons because presented out of context they are great attention grabbers and raise suspicion. Regarding question #1 I posted this on another thread:

I think it fair to say the LDS concept of becoming a god (little g) is similar to the Catholic doctrine of Sainthood. In other words, to us there is only ONE GOD (big G) but we can become “like” God, our Heavenly Father in some sense (little g). Christ said that his disciples would inherit “all that the Father hath.” However, what that means exactly is just speculation, not official doctrine.

)

I think your going into your personal version of Mormonism, Casen, with all due respect. Mormons worship the God “of this world” even though they believe he was once a man who had a God above him with another above him, etc. ad nauseum… Further, Mormons are not allowed to worship any other of the countless other Gods, no matter their “level of exultation”.

Nowhere in current Mormon teaching does the subject of the Uncaused Cause (God) come into discussion.

utlm.org/navonlineresources.htm

 

[Donna_P]

DeFide:

I think your going into your personal version of Mormonism, Casen, with all due respect. Mormons worship the God “of this world” even though they believe he was once a man who had a God above him with another above him, etc. ad nauseum…

I’ve done quite a bit of reading on this. You are correct. Mormons try to “slide” this under the table. They also believe there is NO hell. All go to some kind of “heaven”.

They also tend to shift beliefs depending on the political wind. Look at Polygamy. They also believe in abortion.

God Bless,
Donna

 

[tkdnick]

Donna P:

I’ve done quite a bit of reading on this. You are correct. Mormons try to “slide” this under the table. They also believe there is NO hell. All go to some kind of “heaven”.

Not quite. LDS believe in a place called the outer darkness. I would equate this to our idea of hell. Though from what I’ve read it seems very few will ever go there. The vast majority of people seem to be headed to one of the three levels of heaven.

Look at Polygamy.

Actually, what the LDS used to practice would more specifically be called polygyny. Polygamy allows for multiple spouses (either sex). Polygyny only allows for multiple wives.

They also believe in abortion.

NEVER, in all of my research of the LDS church or talking with LDS have I heard anyone support abortion. Their current leadership allows abortions under certain circumstances, but their church does not support abortion. In fact, you can find quotes from past (and some current) LDS leaders calling abortion one of the worst crimes possible.

 

[Casen]

DeFide,
I’m sure I’m just too dense to understand your point in posting a link to an anti-mormon website but I guess I missed it. Could you please clairify?

I think what I posted is accurate and if I’m wrong I’ll ask one of the other current members of my church that post here to correct me. The concept that God was once a Man like us has been discussed by church leadership and speculated upon but it’s not canonized doctrine and what it means exactly I can’t say. In any case, we believe that the Atonement of Christ was infinite, meaning it covered all of God’s creations.

From Elder Bruce McConkie (a former LDS Apostle):
His atonement is the most transcendent event that ever has or ever will occur, from creation’s dawn and through all the ages of a never ending eternity.

So this should pretty much rule out the idea that there are many Christ’s on different planets performing many atonements for the people of that planet. That we can become LIKE God we believe but what exactly that means we don’t know.

Donna P said:
Mormons try to “slide” this under the table. They also believe there is NO hell. All go to some kind of “heaven”. They also tend to shift beliefs depending on the political wind. Look at Polygamy. They also believe in abortion.

Donna,
No offense, but you either haven’t done as much reading as you suggest or you’ve been reading the wrong things.

1. As tkdnick pointed out we do indeed believe in Hell. We call it “outer darkenss”. Jesus first coined the term in Matthew 8:12 but if you prefer to call it “hell” that works too!
2. No, our beliefs are pretty constant. However, we don’t believe the heavens are sealed and hence believe that God can reveal more knowledge through His prophets any time he wants.
3. Regarding polygamy, it seems God has endorsed this practice from time to time throughout history (start with the Old Testament). Abraham was a righteous man and polygamous.
4. We don’t condone abortion. A few quotes to emphasize the point:

Abortion must be considered one of the most revolting and sinful practices in this day.
(First Presidency)

We oppose and abhor the damnable practice of wholesale abortion and every other unholy and impure act which strikes at the very foundation of the home and family, our most basic institutions.
President Ezra Taft Benson

Church members guilty of being parties to the sin of abortion must be subjected to the disciplinary action of the councils of the Church as circumstances warrant. Such discipline, which applies to all parties consenting to the evil act, may include excommunication from the Church.
President Spencer W. Kimball

 

[Jo_s_Dad]

Donna P:

They also believe in abortion.

ROTFLMBO!!!

Not only does the LDS chuch NOT believe in abortion, they take almost the exact same position on birth control that the Catholic church takes.

I say “Almost” because the Catholic chuch teaches that to be intimate with your spouse without conceiving you should limit intamacy to infertile periods, where the LDS chuch teaches that such acts of intimacy should be reserved for procreation purposes only.

 

[Casen]

RE: the LDS chuch teaches that such acts of intimacy should be reserved for procreation purposes only

Could you post your source for this? I’ve never heard this and don’t believe it.

 

[deb1]

Jo's_Dad:

ROTFLMBO!!!

Not only does the LDS chuch NOT believe in abortion, they take almost the exact same position on birth control that the Catholic church takes.

I say “Almost” because the Catholic chuch teaches that to be intimate with your spouse without conceiving you should limit intamacy to infertile periods, where the LDS chuch teaches that such acts of intimacy should be reserved for procreation purposes only.

Okay, now I have another question. Mormons don’t believe in spacing their children?

 

[Casen]

From the Chruch handbook of Instructions 1999

*Married couples also should understand that sexual relations within marriage are divinely approved not **only for the purpose of procreation, but also as a means of expressing love ** and strengthening emotional and spiritual bonds between husband and wife. *

 

[Casen]

The decision as to how many chldren to have and when to have them is extremely intimate and private and should be left between the couple and the Lord. Church members should not judge one another in this matter.
Chruch handbook of Instructions 1999

 

[Chris-WA]

Jo's_Dad:

ROTFLMBO!!!

Not only does the LDS chuch NOT believe in abortion, they take almost the exact same position on birth control that the Catholic church takes.

To clear this up, officially the LDS church does not support abortion, though does allow it in specific circumstances (see LDS.org). According to their statement on the website, one could pray about it and receive some kind of divine confirmation allowing an abortion in a difficult circumstance.

…the LDS chuch teaches that such acts of intimacy should be reserved for procreation purposes only

That is not correct. The LDS church allows artificial contraception, which would make no sense if your statement was true.

 

[Chris-WA]

*I

think it fair to say the LDS concept of becoming a god (little g) is similar to the Catholic doctrine of Sainthood. In other words, to us there is only ONE GOD (big G) but we can become “like” God, our Heavenly Father in some sense (little g). Christ said that his disciples would inherit “all that the Father hath.” However, what that means exactly is just speculation, not official doctrine.

May not be “official doctrine,” but what this meant certainly was taught quite plainly by Joseph Smith and Brigham Young. They certainly regarded eternal progression as something far more than what Catholics call sainthood. Sainthood simply means you made it to heaven and not hell–that’s all. Smith and Young believed in a multitude of gods and that temple-married couples could achieve something similar to what God the Father did. Smith and Young’s statements certainly don’t come across as speculation, and they certainly didn’t preface such statements with “This is just my opinion…”

Regarding #2, we believe that God (Our Heavenly Father) created everything, including our spirits. We believe Satan was a spirit son of God who rebelled.

11 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.
(Old Testament | Isaiah 14:12 - 15)

25 And this we saw also, and bear record, that an angel of God who was in authority in the presence of God, who rebelled against the Only Begotten Son whom the Father loved and who was in the bosom of the Father, was thrust down from the presence of God and the Son,
26 And was called Perdition, for the heavens wept over him—he was Lucifer, a son of the morning.
27 And we beheld, and lo, he is fallen! is fallen, even a son of the morning!
(Doctrine and Covenants | Section 76:25 - 27)

9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.(New Testament | Revelation 12:9)

Important to note the difference here between Catholic and Mormon beliefs. Catholics believe angels are a different race of beings than men. We are not resurrected as angels, nor will we ever be angels. Mormons believe the angels are resurrected humans (such as Moroni), or those in heaven who never got a body (such as Satan).

 

[tkdnick]

Jo's_Dad:

where the LDS chuch teaches that such acts of intimacy should be reserved for procreation purposes only.

So you’re telling me that LDS only have sexual relations when they are attempting to have children???

 

[tkdnick]

Chris-WA:

Sainthood simply means you made it to heaven and not hell–that’s all.

I don’t think that is accurate. Sainthood is a statement about how a person lived their life here on earth. There are only two people who The Church has made an official statement about them being in Heaven - Jesus & Mary.

 

[DeFide]

tkdnick:

I don’t think that is accurate. Sainthood is a statement about how a person lived their life here on earth. There are only two people who The Church has made an official statement about them being in Heaven - Jesus & Mary.

(offtopic)
Not true.

1. Anyone who makes it to heaven is a saint (holy one) regardless of whether the Church makes a pronouncement on it.
2. Church canonization of Saints is an infallible and thus official proclaimation. The Church therefore does hold with specificity that more than just Jesus & Mary are in Heaven.

 

[Jo_s_Dad]

tkdnick:

So you’re telling me that LDS only have sexual relations when they are attempting to have children???

No, not all members limit themselves in such a manner, but the church does teach this. The problem with intimate relations in any church though, is getting the members to actually practice what the church teaches.

 

[DeFide]

Casen:

DeFide,
I’m sure I’m just too dense to understand your point in posting a link to an anti-mormon website but I guess I missed it. Could you please clairify?

l

Because “official” Mormon websites refuse to offer more than one or two sentence feel-good descriptions of beliefs that don’t deal with controversies at all.

Hence, I have to go with non-Mormon sources that are willing to be forthright.

I’ll be waiting for an official Mormon citation that says that eternal progression of the gods is an optional belief for Mormons.

Edit:
Here’s the closest thing I could find to a clear semi-official statement:

Latter-day Saints believe that God achieved his exalted rank by progressing much as man must progress and that God is a perfected and exalted man.abstracted from K. Codell Carter, “Godhood,” in Encyclopedia of Mormonism, ed. Daniel H. Ludlow, 4 vols. (New York: Macmillan, 1992), 2:553–55.

source: ldsfaq.byu.edu/view.asp?q=178

So, it’s not “optional” or merely “speculative” Mormon belief.