Do Most Protestants Do This?

[FickleFreckled]

There are plenty of misbehaving Catholics who go onto the non-Catholic forums and attack Protestants. We certainly have our axe-grinders on all sides. Also authorities. Lots of authorities.

 

[tweetymom]

I did not come here to cause anyone anything. When I say something that is meaningful all I hear is critizm from you and others. Maybe there is a reason you are annoyed?

Maybe you can start a different thread about your experiences here. It seems to me that the grief you get is due to your claim to be Catholic while publicly rejecting several core teachings of the Church.

I said that I don’t agree with some. now does that make me an evil person?

 

[mmmcounts]

I have only been n CA for a short time but I have noticed a pattern of behavior that bothers me greatly. It seems that most of our protestants friends that come here do so in an arrogant and hostile way. The threads sometimes start in a friendly manner but quickly deteriorate into a “I am smarter than you and you need to listen to me” tone. The idea that they look down upon us Catholics is very evident and there is no attempt to hide it.

Am I the only one that sees this or is this the pattern? If it is the pattern, how do you all get past this attitude and have productive and God honoring discussions? I am finding it very difficult.

I will make a quick note of how this sometimes goes both ways, but I won’t deny that Protestants display this kind of behavior oh CAF too often. I can give you two reasons for it.

The first reason is short and sweet. This is a Catholic site. The Catholics on such a site are going to primarily fill the role of “defenders of the faith.” Protestants who come on here are going to be more on the “offensive” side, and yes, this kind of approach too often starts politely and then becomes “offensive.” There may be some merit to the idea that on a Protestant message board, you’ll see Protestants take more of a defensive role and Catholics would take up the offensive side. I can’t promise that, though.

The second reason has to do with an article I recently read by a Catholic guy examining the reasons behind the “Catholics are Stupid” stereotype (which, as it turns out, may be more of an American stereotype than anything else). During the early history of Christianity in Europe, Catholics were largely illiterate. I forget the exact numbers, and this time frame does span quite a number of centuries, but you have some idea of what these numbers would look like: Rather small. The average Catholic was wholly dependent on the clergy to instruct them on proper orthodoxy. Now we fast forward to America. The first wave of Europeans going to America tended to be second-born sons, Protestants seeking religious freedom, and- this part is important- mostly literate. Again, I can’t remember the exact numbers, but it was closer to 100% than 50%. Essentially, American Protestantism was founded by people who were literate.

Now we must fast forward one more time to a second wave of immigration in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. This is when a great deal of Catholics emigrated to America. By this time, Protestant literacy in America was predictably higher than it was in the 16th and 17th centuries, but the Catholics arriving in this second wave were, on the whole, far less literate than the average for America. One number that I do remember pretty clearly had to do with time 1920-1930 time frame, when 75% of Catholics in America were immigrants from the second wave. Basically, the Catholics in America at this time were illiterate to a far greater extent than Protestant Americans were. They were still wholly dependent on the clergy to tell them what to believe. Due to the relatively high level of illiteracy and sporadically strewn population, Catholic laypersons also tended to be the furthest thing from evangelistic, largely because of a variety of factors that made it quite difficult to do so, and that had a tendency to continue in the next generation even when it was not so difficult. Many Protestants faulted Catholics for this, and in a much more malicious vein, a lot of Protestant Americans reacted to Catholic immigrants in a xenophobic and discriminatory manner because they believed these illiterate immigrants were in the pocket of the Pope and therefore dangerous to America.

While the xenophobia and discrimination has largely subsided (with relatively few exceptions), you have to remember that some of the younger people using this forum have grandparents who grew up during this time period. The notion that Catholics continue to act like ignorant illiterates in spite of the fact that they are capable of reading continues to exist, and this results in an overall impression of Catholics who are capable of reasoning for themselves but still choose to follow Catholic tradition by letting the clergy do everything for them.

Now, while the average Protestant will not give full assent to such a harsh analysis of Catholics, I do get the feeling that most of them have grown up with some of these ideas at a certain level. I think even some Catholics can acknowledge that stereotypes do not arise out of nothing, and no matter how slanderous the stereotype, at least some small part of it must have its origin in reality or the stereotype would not be adopted as true by the culture.

I should cite my source for that last part; that came from a Catholic.
renewamerica.com/columns/kellmeyer/050427

 

[Hiskid1973]

You are one of the protestants that I was alluding to. Thank you for the confirmation.

Welcome Bro…I see you joined on my birthday

 

[tweetymom]

Maybe you can start a different thread about your experiences here. It seems to me that the grief you get is due to your claim to be Catholic while publicly rejecting several core teachings of the Church.

I said that I don’t agree with some. now does that make me an evil person?

 

[Nine_Two]

I will make a quick note of how this sometimes goes both ways, but I won’t deny that Protestants display this kind of behavior oh CAF too often. I can give you two reasons for it.

The first reason is short and sweet. This is a Catholic site. The Catholics on such a site are going to primarily fill the role of “defenders of the faith.” Protestants who come on here are going to be more on the “offensive” side, and yes, this kind of approach too often starts politely and then becomes “offensive.” There may be some merit to the idea that on a Protestant message board, you’ll see Protestants take more of a defensive role and Catholics would take up the offensive side. I can’t promise that, though.

The second reason has to do with an article I recently read by a Catholic guy examining the reasons behind the “Catholics are Stupid” stereotype (which, as it turns out, may be more of an American stereotype than anything else). During the early history of Christianity in Europe, Catholics were largely illiterate. I forget the exact numbers, and this time frame does span quite a number of centuries, but you have some idea of what these numbers would look like: Rather small. The average Catholic was wholly dependent on the clergy to instruct them on proper orthodoxy. Now we fast forward to America. The first wave of Europeans going to America tended to be second-born sons, Protestants seeking religious freedom, and- this part is important- mostly literate. Again, I can’t remember the exact numbers, but it was closer to 100% than 50%. Essentially, American Protestantism was founded by people who were literate.

Now we must fast forward one more time to a second wave of immigration in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. This is when a great deal of Catholics emigrated to America. By this time, Protestant literacy in America was predictably higher than it was in the 16th and 17th centuries, but the Catholics arriving in this second wave were, on the whole, far less literate than the average for America. One number that I do remember pretty clearly had to do with time 1920-1930 time frame, when 75% of Catholics in America were immigrants from the second wave. Basically, the Catholics in America at this time were illiterate to a far greater extent than Protestant Americans were. They were still wholly dependent on the clergy to tell them what to believe. Due to the relatively high level of illiteracy and sporadically strewn population, Catholic laypersons also tended to be the furthest thing from evangelistic, largely because of a variety of factors that made it quite difficult to do so, and that had a tendency to continue in the next generation even when it was not so difficult. Many Protestants faulted Catholics for this, and in a much more malicious vein, a lot of Protestant Americans reacted to Catholic immigrants in a xenophobic and discriminatory manner because they believed these illiterate immigrants were in the pocket of the Pope and therefore dangerous to America.

While the xenophobia and discrimination has largely subsided (with relatively few exceptions), you have to remember that some of the younger people using this forum have grandparents who grew up during this time period. The notion that Catholics continue to act like ignorant illiterates in spite of the fact that they are capable of reading continues to exist, and this results in an overall impression of Catholics who are capable of reasoning for themselves but still choose to follow Catholic tradition by letting the clergy do everything for them.

Now, while the average Protestant will not give full assent to such a harsh analysis of Catholics, I do get the feeling that most of them have grown up with some of these ideas at a certain level. I think even some Catholics can acknowledge that stereotypes do not arise out of nothing, and no matter how slanderous the stereotype, at least some small part of it must have its origin in reality or the stereotype would not be adopted as true by the culture.

I should cite my source for that last part; that came from a Catholic.
renewamerica.com/columns/kellmeyer/050427

While there was higher Literacy in what is now America, this had nothing to do with religious reasons. They had a higher average literacy than the lands they were leaving as well, which would also tend to be Protestant. The reason is simply that they came from a social class that had the wealth to move. They were neither the landed elite - who would be literate but were a very small portion of society, nor the poor illiterate peasants.

And I believe the number tended to be around 60%, while Western Europe at the time was around 40%. I’d have to find the textbook that has this information to be sure though.

 

[izoid]

Maybe you can start a different thread about your experiences here. It seems to me that the grief you get is due to your claim to be Catholic while publicly rejecting several core teachings of the Church.

I said that I don’t agree with some. now does that make me an evil person?

No, you are certainly not an evil person. I am very sorry if I have made you feel that way. In fact, I think you are a God fearing lady who loves Christ.

I think that you are aware that by standing against Church teaching in such a public way you will draw negative attention to yourself. It has been my observation that you tend to draw this negative attention to yourself with your vocal opposition to certain Church teachings.

With that said, please know that I have nothing against you as a person. I am quite certain that your faith is strong and vibrant. I do disagree with you vocal opposition to the Church in certain areas however.

 

[izoid]

Welcome Bro…I see you joined on my birthday

Thanks man.

 

[tweetymom]

I said that I don’t agree with some. now does that make me an evil person?

No, you are certainly not an evil person. I am very sorry if I have made you feel that way. In fact, I think you are a God fearing lady who loves Christ.

I think that you are aware that by standing against Church teaching in such a public way you will draw negative attention to yourself. It has been my observation that you tend to draw this negative attention to yourself with your vocal opposition to certain Church teachings.

With that said, please know that I have nothing against you as a person. I am quite certain that your faith is strong and vibrant. I do disagree with you vocal opposition to the Church in certain areas however.

Good so we can agree to disagree.

 

[izoid]

I said that I don’t agree with some. now does that make me an evil person?

Maybe you need to take a chill pill.

Now there you go Tweety. I post a nice post about you and our differences and you go and edit you original post, telling me to take a chill pill. Very nice of you.

 

[tweetymom]

Maybe you need to take a chill pill.

Now there you go Tweety. I post a nice post about you and our differences and you go and edit you original post, telling me to take a chill pill. Very nice of you.

I was replying to a former post when you said unkind thins it just happened to come up that way. Sorry I didn’t plan for it to come up that way it just did.

 

[Hiskid1973]

“You are one of the protestants that I was alluding to. Thank you for the confirmation.”

This is an example of how things start…Some comments are better left unsaid…It does not edify plus it’s getting personal and not addressing the issue…

No offense to the poster as I am just using it as an example…

OK you two…knock it off and give each other a hug…

 

[tweetymom]

I did not come here to cause anyone anything. When I say something that is meaningful all I hear is critizm from you and others. Maybe there is a reason you are annoyed?

Maybe you can start a different thread about your experiences here. It seems to me that the grief you get is due to your claim to be Catholic while publicly rejecting several core teachings of the Church.

Sorry I was refering to this post and it got all mixed ip with the other

 

[izoid]

Maybe you can start a different thread about your experiences here. It seems to me that the grief you get is due to your claim to be Catholic while publicly rejecting several core teachings of the Church.

Sorry I was refering to this post and it got all mixed ip with the other

No problem. I think we are all good now. At least for tonight.

 

[izoid]

“You are one of the protestants that I was alluding to. Thank you for the confirmation.”

This is an example of how things start…Some comments are better left unsaid…It does not edify plus it’s getting personal and not addressing the issue…

No offense to the poster as I am just using it as an example…

I can agree with this. I should have just ignored her comment but I didn’t.

 

[mmmcounts]

While there was higher Literacy in what is now America, this had nothing to do with religious reasons. They had a higher average literacy than the lands they were leaving as well, which would also tend to be Protestant. The reason is simply that they came from a social class that had the wealth to move. They were neither the landed elite - who would be literate but were a very small portion of society, nor the poor illiterate peasants.

And I believe the number tended to be around 60%, while Western Europe at the time was around 40%. I’d have to find the textbook that has this information to be sure though.

I don’t have any specific numbers on Europeans in the modern era (ie., industrialism, modernism, etc.), but the article I looked at did say literacy in America was at 95% even prior to the Revolution. I would have to do more digging around to find out what the Catholic immigrants’ demographic looked like, but I can guarantee it didn’t approach 95% literacy.

You’re quite right about a middle-class migration during the early settling of America; I mentioned it in passing when talking about the tendency for “second sons” to emigrate from Europe. They would be from families that were not the ruling elite but still fairly wealthy, and the eldest son would always receive the family inheritance- in these situations, that would include land. They would ask themselves this: Why give up the family’s land in Europe and risk everything in America? Oldest sons tended to stay; second sons (and beyond) were a lot more open to the idea.

Edit- before saying anything else, I should probably clarify something: In looking at the historical background that demonstrates the development of the current image of Catholics in America, I am not attempting to make a case for Catholic stupidity. I simply acknowledge that a largely unfair stereotype exists and it negatively affects the way non-Catholics (particularly American Protestants) view Catholics. I’m also interested in understanding the reasons for this stereotype. This is not so I can reinforce the beliefs of Protestants who think Catholics are stupid; rather, I think the opposite sort of behavior would be typical of someone who wants to continue on with the stereotype they currently hold to.

That said, I will also add this: The individuals who must hold themselves primarily responsible for the image of Catholics in America are Catholics in America. I know what it’s like to adhere to a set of fundamentals concerning the Christian faith and watch the term “fundamentalist” become synonymous with “anti-intellectual” and “completely worthless loser.” Among other things that are largely much worse. Fundamentalists can only blame themselves for the irreparable damage it sustained, and the slightly more recent Evangelical movement has done a very good job of consistently owning their responsibility for keeping the same thing from happening to that image. Catholics would do well to do the same, and if you look back at the link I used,
renewamerica.com/columns/kellmeyer/050427
my assessment is that the article does a nice job of laying out reasons for why the Catholic image is often one of “stupid,” but it does not do such a good job of encouraging Catholics to take responsibility for rectifying the situation. The singular and oft-referenced example of an Evangelical piece of work that does this for Evangelicals is Scandal of the Evangelical Mind, and it was eagerly received by Evangelicals worldwide. I’m not familiar with any comparable Catholic publication, but I think it’s something that Catholics need. From a Catholic, of course. Not from me.

 

[izoid]

I don’t have any specific numbers on Europeans in the modern era (ie., industrialism, modernism, etc.), but the article I looked at did say literacy in America was at 95% even prior to the Revolution. I would have to do more digging around to find out what the Catholic immigrants’ demographic looked like, but I can guarantee it didn’t approach 95% literacy.

You’re quite right about a middle-class migration during the early settling of America; I mentioned it in passing when talking about the tendency for “second sons” to emigrate from Europe. They would be from families that were not the ruling elite but still fairly wealthy, and the eldest son would always receive the family inheritance- in these situations, that would include land. They would ask themselves this: Why give up the family’s land in Europe and risk everything in America? Oldest sons tended to stay; second sons (and beyond) were a lot more open to the idea.

THank you for your thoughtful posts.

Where do you worship, what denomination?

 

[mmmcounts]

THank you for your thoughtful posts.

Where do you worship, what denomination?

I’m non-denom. I worship in Illinois throughout the week, but on Sundays, I go to a theologically conservative Bible church. We have a pretty heavy emphasis on Sola Scriptura, but here’s something that might surprise you, and this is absolutely true: Sermons do not consist entirely of the pastor quoting Scripture. I know it probably sounds crazy to someone with the typical Catholic mindset regarding SS, but that really is how it works out. In the past, we’ve tended to treat the Holy Spirit as the redheaded stepchild of the Trinity, but we’ve been working on that over the course of the past year or so. There’s no speaking in tongues or prayers for miraculous healing in church (or out), though- if there was, I really think 50-75% of the families would miraculously leave. It’s a small church, conservative but friendly, and often looking around to see how its members can come together and do something of relevance for God. To this point, in all honesty, there’s been a lot more looking than finding in that area. We’re pretty good on sending and supporting missionaries, but we spin our wheels just a bit when it comes to the mission field in our immediate area.

Let’s see…another thing you might find of interest is that my immediate area, though mostly Protestant, is one town over from what is arguably the most Catholic place on the planet outside of the Vatican. I don’t know if it’s true anymore, but years ago I remember hearing that it had the highest ratio of Catholic churches to a city’s population outside of Vatican City. Long story short, I’'m just east of Joliet.

Edit- My bad, I should return the favor. How about you?

(Meant to add that; hit submit too early).

 

[izoid]

I’m non-denom. I worship in Illinois throughout the week, but on Sundays, I go to a theologically conservative Bible church. We have a pretty heavy emphasis on Sola Scriptura, but here’s something that might surprise you, and this is absolutely true: Sermons do not consist entirely of the pastor quoting Scripture. I know it probably sounds crazy to someone with the typical Catholic mindset regarding SS, but that really is how it works out. In the past, we’ve tended to treat the Holy Spirit as the redheaded stepchild of the Trinity, but we’ve been working on that over the course of the past year or so. There’s no speaking in tongues or prayers for miraculous healing in church (or out), though- if there was, I really think 50-75% of the families would miraculously leave. It’s a small church, conservative but friendly, and often looking around to see how its members can come together and do something of relevance for God. To this point, in all honesty, there’s been a lot more looking than finding in that area. We’re pretty good on sending and supporting missionaries, but we spin our wheels just a bit when it comes to the mission field in our immediate area.

Let’s see…another thing you might find of interest is that my immediate area, though mostly Protestant, is one town over from what is arguably the most Catholic place on the planet outside of the Vatican. I don’t know if it’s true anymore, but years ago I remember hearing that it had the highest ratio of Catholic churches to a city’s population outside of Vatican City. Long story short, I’'m just east of Joliet.

Edit- My bad, I should return the favor. How about you?

(Meant to add that; hit submit too early).

My background, twenty years of it, was in conservative fundamental churches. I was a children’s pastor in a Bible church in Arizona. I even sat under John MacArthur for the first 3 years of my walk with Christ.

I am now a Catholic and a pretty conservative one at that. I found that I could not prove sola scriptura from the scriptures themselves and began to look into church history. My search ended at the doors to the Catholic Church.

 

[mmmcounts]

My background, twenty years of it, was in conservative fundamental churches. I was a children’s pastor in a Bible church in Arizona. I even sat under John MacArthur for the first 3 years of my walk with Christ.

I am now a Catholic and a pretty conservative one at that. I found that I could not prove sola scriptura from the scriptures themselves and began to look into church history. My search ended at the doors to the Catholic Church.

Cool. I’ve talked to some Orthodox Christians who did the same exact thing, except they wound up Orthodox. Can I inquire as to whether you seriously weighed the option of Catholicism in one hand and Orthodoxy in the other, or did your eventual track have more to do with the people you ran into along the way and the places you went?

As for my Evangelical-to-Orthodox friends, I suspect that they all wound up Orthodox primarily because of the people on staff in the theology department. Also, the school as a whole tends to have a more friendly and positive attitude toward Orthodoxy that contrasts with a politely cautious and, depending on the person, standoffish approach to Catholicism.