Do most women TRULY appreciate good men?

[strngrnrth]

In my experience, which is a lot, men are the ones who throw most domestic tantrums, do more emotionalizing (I consider changing the subject emotionalizing and I consider arguments from authority a form of changing the subject), and do most sabotage of supposedly agreed mutual goals. Men are most likely to try to get away with unreasonable behavior by appealing to a debt the current partner has no connection to, usually parental or something like that, to turn violent (the ultimate attempt to change the subject, thus the ultimate accidental admission of defeat and abandonment of the real battleground IMO), and the most likely to treat sincere, giving partners like they’re boring and speak with admiration of women who are less responsible and who have loose reputations. I think women who behave like that are fairly uncommon, and men like that are very common and hard to recognize. They act exactly like everyone else until it’s too late.

 

[agnostic]

Women are attracted to power. This can mean ‘bad boys’. When these ‘bad boys’ act according to their nature towards them, they start whining.

Men make the mistake of thinking women think like men, and vice versa.

It’s man’s job to be the master. A woman wants to find her master; a man who’ll protect her, and who she can look up to. Hence all the ‘acting up’; it’s a test of dominance.

Also, many women will bring to bear on their current man negative feelings they have towards other men; their father or ex-boyfriends.

A smart man gives a curt rebuke when that happens and then heads to the pub, to let her stew in her own juice for a while. A man is not required to be an emotional sponge for the negative junk of women.

TV is propaganda. Films are propaganda. Newspapers are propaganda. Don’t take life-lessons from them.

I’ve slipped into a parallel universe

The problem I’ve had, and this is just me personally, with guys, is that the minute they think they’ve caught you - they want to change you.

I race bikes - motorbikes - as a hobby. I’ve dated loads of guys I meet on track and at road races. Soon as things get serious, they want me to stop racing and be their support crew, not the other way round They want me to be at home for them, cooking and cleaning and darning their socks Like thats ever gonna happen
I’ve dated men who say they are attracted by my strong sense of personal identity, strength of character, independence and the fact I’m a risk taker and lead a pretty adventurous lifestyle - 'cept they really want to look after me and don’t want me getting hurt and all that old flimflam. Eh??? Even the guys with the same shared interests always eventually want you to change - to suit them.
So yeah, I’d like a good man, eventually, to stay at home, cook for me, bring up the kids, clean my house, wash my clothes, while I carry on with my career and hobbies - but in the meantime the tracks are littered with badboys just asking to be whooped

 

[Consecrated]

Not sure what KWIM means. Is that like swimming in Nestle’s Kwik? Or is that Quick? Remember that rabbit?

Anyway, I agree that men have this problem, too. That being said, however, if an indisputable argument using concrete unobjectionable facts and evidence is presented to a man, he will be forced to admit that he is wrong. Can the same be said for all women? Not if they are adamant that they know it all.

sorry-- “Know What I Mean?” Oh yeah, I remember that rabbit!

sorry, I still don’t think it’s an accurate generalization… b/c I know lots of men and women who do it. I don’t see anything different between the two sexes on this point except maybe the manner in which they choose to exhibit it. Pride is still pride-- prideful men are no more willing to be “forced to admit they are wrong” given “unobjectionable facts” than prideful women are… This willingness to change minds varies from person to person.

 

[strngrnrth]

Not sure what KWIM means. Is that like swimming in Nestle’s Kwik? Or is that Quick? Remember that rabbit?

Anyway, I agree that men have this problem, too. That being said, however, if an indisputable argument using concrete unobjectionable facts and evidence is presented to a man, he will be forced to admit that he is wrong. Can the same be said for all women? Not if they are adamant that they know it all.

Nope. In my experience, if an indisputable argument using conctrete unobjectionable facts and evidence is presented to a man he is about three to five times more likely than a woman to shriek, flail, run in circles, flap his arms, etc., accuse the other person of utterly unrelated and often untrue thngs, stomp around making gestures that imply a physical threat, lean into the other person’s face barking things such as “I’m ten times smarter than you” but refuse to get back on topic, and announce that he isn’t listening and walk away. Anything to avoid learning why someone might not agree with him.

 

[royal_archer]

…

The story in Grease is a good example of this. The heroine, who is sweet and decent, falls for a hoodlum and ends up giving him her virginity, and everyone dances around and sings cutesy 50s-style songs about how wonderful this is.

If this happened to you or your daughter in real life, it would be a complete tragedy, probably tear your family apart…

The character in Greese was portrayed as a good person who was a bit of a rebel but an honnest person who looked out for his friends. This has come to become a popular sterotype in society that is not backed up by reality in many cases.

 

[chevalier]

Good exit line! I’m amused!

Now where did I put that chocolate bar!

Lol! I love pulling a smug expression, saying, “I have what a woman needs,” and pulling out a chocolate bar. So long as you have enough chocolate, you need not fear women. “Are you calling [intercom] to tell me how you like me or would you just like some chocolate?” And so on. Office fun. Does this make me cynical?

I’m not a Dr Laura fan anymore, but in past times, I read a book…ugh, the name escapes me…but it had to do with men seeking out women they can ‘rescue’ (and how that was a BAD idea) and how some women seek out problems, or ‘bad boys,’ due to a number of things–most being how their dads treated them growing up, and they are looking for love through someone that is incapable of giving it (sort of reliving childhood) It was a very good read…I wish I could think of the name!

I confirm that. I had that problem too. Most of my exes after my turning adult have had some such rescue factor, but even a girl from elementary school was generally being rescued homework-wise, which probably didn’t teach me good things in terms of proper responses. Or whatever a psychologist would say. I was also guilty as charged of chasing the wrong girls, but I think I’ve already said this. I basically confirm that men have problems, even those men one could call “good” men.

She also introduced him to others as “that stupid redneck I’m dating.”

That’d be an insta-dump for me, though I remember taking such things when I was a teenager. Reminds of a sad story, though, since being called something akin to redneck (more like boor, given the original Polish word) was what killed, or rather prevented things for a dear friend and me. I had a soft spot for her long after, but the divide caused by that redneck incident wasn’t able to be overcome. As much as I sorely regretted this years after on some days.

 

[royal_archer]

Back when I was young and unattached my circle or associates was fairly diverse. Some of us were of good moral character, concerned about getting a good education and a start on a good carreer while others were interested in “scoring” as much as possible. We noted that those who were the biggest slime ball- jerks also tended to have the most (quantity) and best (desirability) girl friends even though they tended to treat the girls like ****. The girls would be excited for a while, then be upset about how they were mistreated, then when the finally got over it, they were off to the next looser. It was disturbing how the biggest loosers seemed to get the first choice of women. My morally inclined friends and I came to the conclusion that there was a direct coorelation between how abusive someone was and their ability to get a girl to like them. Of course we were too nice to try that out.

 

[Al_Masetti]

There is something to be said for “what criteria do women use in selecting a mate?”

A friend of mine many years ago, when we were both very young, spent all of his money on a very expensive to-die-for convertible. [Even today, that car is really nice.]

He said with some irony that he had to chase the women away. The car was an honest-to-gosh “babe magnet”.

He was expressing the concern that these women seemed to lack good judgment, as their main “criterion” was to get next to the guy with the convertible.

 

[chevalier]

Been putting this off for a while, but let’s reply to Layman:

Women are attracted to power. This can mean ‘bad boys’. When these ‘bad boys’ act according to their nature towards them, they start whining.

My experience confirms that, but my experience largely amounts to hurts experienced as a teenager or in early twenties. It is rather bitter experience, given that one of my dear friends ended up saying she would have liked her boyfriend had been more like I, which wasn’t making her go for me, even though she obviously had a thing for me going. But probably a lot had gone on between them before and old love doesn’t die fast. One doesn’t abandon the loved ones so easily. Poor girl collected a lot of mistreatment in her life. Far more than I, being my own age.

Men make the mistake of thinking women think like men, and vice versa.

Correct.

It’s man’s job to be the master.

In some way maybe. A leader I’d say.

A woman wants to find her master; a man who’ll protect her, and who she can look up to. Hence all the ‘acting up’; it’s a test of dominance

And that’s why I don’t win that game. I well could, but I will not. Dominance is not my cup of tea. If people are to follow me, I want it to be by their own choice, able to confirm me at every time as their leader, not someone who broke them. I have no desire to break people and I will not use dog training tactics. Some people feel rather cheated when they see I will get people to back down in a matter of seconds if need be, but will not move a finger to break and dominate someone.

Also, many women will bring to bear on their current man negative feelings they have towards other men; their father or ex-boyfriends.

Men do that equally as often. I think I have too.

A smart man gives a curt rebuke when that happens and then heads to the pub, to let her stew in her own juice for a while.
A man is not required to be an emotional sponge for the negative junk of women.

I know my fair bit about curt rebukes and I’ve done that even with female friends on a couple of rare occasions when it’s been needed, and I realistically expect that there’s need for such in a marriage, but I’d still rather be able to hug her and ask, “What’s wrong, darling?” without attracting vengeance for the millennia or being seen as a weakling.

As for junk, everyone has some. Spending so much time with someone, we’re bound to experience some of it. Sometimes we’ll give it out, too. Everyone needs help snapping out of shock sometimes. In extremely tough situations only a hard slap across the face helps people sober up sometimes. In less tough ones, I suppose a curt rebuke does it. “That is not true and you know it. You need to get out of that state,” is a perfectly valid thing to say sometimes.

Yes, relationships take effort, but it seems like some women place unneccesary obstacles into them (emotional baggage, fear of getting close due to past hurts, “my ex-boyfriend this, my ex-boyfriend that,” refusing to accept the fact that they are wrong when a man uses logically sound factual arguments to refute their misguided opinions, failure to effectively communicate emotions, “the silent treatment,” implying things rather than outright saying them, etc.) to make relationships more effort than they need to be. Why can’t those women just cooperate and allow themselves to love and be loved?

What’s logical to one is not always logical to another. Facts aren’t always as much of the problem as attitudes. Men are also capable of giving a feelings-based reply to a woman’s logical argumentation. There’s also a great temptation to say, “Your arguments are not logical. You cannot express yourself in a logical manner. Your ramblings are irrelevant. Your points are not valid,” and then one doesn’t have to concern himself with the other person’s feelings.

 

[Ruthie]

I think part of it is cultural. How many love stories are out there where the good girl reforms the bad guy? (And vice versa.) The basic story line is, they fall in love, bad stuff happens, a solution is found, they ride off into the sunset.

Then there’s the fairy tale, where someone is in a bad situation, and the other somehow rescues them, and they get married and live happily ever after.

We’re culturally inoculated to “rescue” or “fix” each other.

Yeah, I used to fall for the bad guys and try to heal or change them, or help the wounded ones. After enough of that codswallop, “nice but not needy” became my criteria. Then I added “as strong-willed as I am” because I did not want to “wear the pants.”

Well, now I’ve been married to Mr. Right for 11 years. Strong-willed, smart, nice, kind, manly. A good listener, though he hates being wrong. (Neither do I; we’ve made it a loving family joke.)

And now we’re both Catholics! He’s a revert and I’m a convert.

Happy Ruthie

 

[whatevergirl]

Doh!!! We need a thumbs down emoticon.

Surely you don’t think you’re always right, right?

 

[whatevergirl]

Lol! I love pulling a smug expression, saying, “I have what a woman needs,” and pulling out a chocolate bar. So long as you have enough chocolate, you need not fear women. “Are you calling [intercom] to tell me how you like me or would you just like some chocolate?” And so on. Office fun. Does this make me cynical?

**

I confirm that. I had that problem too. Most of my exes after my turning adult have had some such rescue factor, but even a girl from elementary school was generally being rescued homework-wise, which probably didn’t teach me good things in terms of proper responses. Or whatever a psychologist would say. I was also guilty as charged of chasing the wrong girls, but I think I’ve already said this. I basically confirm that men have problems, even those men one could call “good” men.**

That’d be an insta-dump for me, though I remember taking such things when I was a teenager. Reminds of a sad story, though, since being called something akin to redneck (more like boor, given the original Polish word) was what killed, or rather prevented things for a dear friend and me. I had a soft spot for her long after, but the divide caused by that redneck incident wasn’t able to be overcome. As much as I sorely regretted this years after on some days.

Hello chevalier;

It is definitely on both sides…sometimes, we women are attracted to the wrong types, just like men are attracted the wrong types of women. The question one needs to ask him/herself when caught in a revolving door of dating these types of people…‘what am*** I*** doing to attract these types of people to me?’ The answers might be surprising.

Also…I read this not too long ago, and thought the quote would make a great bumper sticker…‘be what you want to attract in a mate.’ So often, we want this or that, but we project a different persona than what we ourselves want in return.

Just more food for thought. You probably have indigestion by now, happy person.

 

[Guitar]

Anyway, I agree that men have this problem, too. That being said, however, if an indisputable argument using concrete unobjectionable facts and evidence is presented to a man, he will be forced to admit that he is wrong. Can the same be said for all women? Not if they are adamant that they know it all.

Happy, I am an engineer in the defence field and as such I am surrounded by men, indisputable arguments and unobjectionable facts. This statement has given me the first really good laugh of the week.

Not even indisputable arguments and unobjectionable facts can force some men to admit they are dead wrong, and some men are indeed adamant they know it all. If you really think all men can be forced by facts to admit it when they are in the wrong, you need to get out more.

 

[chevalier]

Hello chevalier;

:tiphat:

It is definitely on both sides…sometimes, we women are attracted to the wrong types, just like men are attracted the wrong types of women. The question one needs to ask him/herself when caught in a revolving door of dating these types of people…‘what am*** I*** doing to attract these types of people to me?’ The answers might be surprising.

My personality and some of my actions, I guess. But nothing I’d do different to attract the right girl… I am generally the most attractive when I’m not trying to be.

Also…I read this not too long ago, and thought the quote would make a great bumper sticker…‘be what you want to attract in a mate.’

That amounts to being yourself. Well, except our particular flaws we wouldn’t like people to find attractive. I could name a couple.

So often, we want this or that, but we project a different persona than what we ourselves want in return.

Yup.

Not even indisputable arguments and unobjectionable facts can force some men to admit they are dead wrong,

Reminds me of when I once fell for a lady engineer (to be) and she so pwnt me in debate I nearly had to admit that.

 

[DrPiano]

So yeah, I’d like a good man, eventually, to stay at home, cook for me, bring up the kids, clean my house, wash my clothes, while I carry on with my career and hobbies - but in the meantime the tracks are littered with badboys just asking to be whooped

Agnostic,

I snapped up one of those men! We’re happily engaged (going to be married in January) and he’s the one that’s going to stay home and take care of the kids while I’m the physician! While they’re few and far between, those men are out there!

the psychological aspect of my abuse in a nutshell:

1. i thought there was something messed up in him in that he wanted to be with me. (i eventually nearly convinced him of this, too. smart cookie, i was.)
2. his good guy stuff sometimes made me ill-- i thought it was weakness.
3. i was rancorously jealous of him. he was honest, steady, reliable, forthcoming. i was none of those things.
4. when he would react badly, i would use it as a weapon-- ***see? you’re not so together, afterall. ***
5. i was taking revenge on a few guys i’d known, my father headed the list. turns out my husband was nothing like my father, but i was.

…]

i began to understand total self-giving had to start outside of the bedroom. funny, he seemed to be changing, too.

These past 8 or 9 years, we’ve been as happy as any married people i ever knew.

guys at my husband’s job ask him, “how do you stay married for 20 years?”

he responds, “easy. don’t get divorced.”

but when they push him further about the happiness of his marriage, he tells them, “obey God. sorry. i know that’s not the answerr you wanted. but that’s the only answer for us.”

from this i learned my personal motto: let’s change. i’ll go first.

Monicatholic,

(Love the name by the way)

I really identify with the description you gave. I struggle to accept the fact that a wonderful man would want to be with me. I’m slowly learning that I’m a valued daughter of God, but my past experiences in life have left me with a wobbly self-esteem. I’m grateful that my fiance accepts and loves me the way I am and has the quiet strength to be able to put up with those moments in which I am irrational. He loves me in my weakest moments and for that I am truly grateful (even if I don’t always remember )

Happy,

My fiance (a truly good man) can be just as resistant to logical arguments as I am. In fact, I’m frequently (although not always) the more logical partner. I will admit that I don’t always appreciate him the way I should (I struggle with baggage from my past. Shedding this baggage can be more difficult than you’re giving us credit for). I know for me, its taking a lot of prayer and a lot of love from both God and my beloved fiance.

Someone mentioned what women “look” for. I know that what I admire in my fiance is that he strives to love me the way Christ loves the church. He’s not always perfect, but he really tries. In response, I try to place myself under his loving care and protection. I’m not always perfect, but I try. Together we love God and we try to love each other selflessly. We love each other through our mistakes and work through our fights (and yes, we have them). I’m attracted to his quiet strength and his deep love. He - more than anyone else in my life - teaches me about what God’s love is like (although imperfectly).

Anyway, that’s my two cents…

 

[marietta]

What would anyone think of a woman who does not want a “good man”, a dreadful man, or any man? What of the woman who has had a gut full of negative experiences and chooses to live quietly alone? I can’t think of anything I would rather be than alone.

marietta

 

[HappyRevert]

I saw this thread and I felt I had to answer. I’ve been married twice. The first was completely disastrous and as a side effect brought me back to the Catholic Church (different story though). Anyway, I’ve told my current husband many times I think he should teach a class for husbands (we’ve been married 13 years). I have to say I TRULY TRULY appreciate him. He is not perfect, but he is a rock of constancy. He always puts the children and me first. He has a way of making me feel cherished every single day. And as an effect I can say that I truly submit to my husband - because he has earned it. I am quite a feminist in most ways, but in this area, I am extremely old fashioned, and it is all to his credit. I trust him so much that if he ever asked me to do something that I wasn’t sure was right, I would do it, because he would never ask me to do something that would harm our family. He has earned that trust every single day of our marriage and deserves all of the respect that he is given.

If you had asked me this before I married, him I would have said absolutely no way would I submit to my husband because my experience had been that a husband would put his own interest first and not mine or the children. But my husband does embody serving me as Christ would, so I submit to him.

So your answer is - yes certainly we appreciate good men, but sometimes we have to go through a bad boy phase to understand what is truly important.

 

[Feanaro_s_Wife]

What would anyone think of a woman who does not want a “good man”, a dreadful man, or any man? What of the woman who has had a gut full of negative experiences and chooses to live quietly alone? I can’t think of anything I would rather be than alone.

marietta

I would think that either she is called to the single vocation or that she really wants a “good man” but her fears/experiences make her feel like she just can’t take any more risks only to keep finding losers and being hurt. Nothing wrong with being single if that is what one feels called by God to be.

 

[agnostic]

Agnostic,
I snapped up one of those men! We’re happily engaged (going to be married in January) and he’s the one that’s going to stay home and take care of the kids while I’m the physician! While they’re few and far between, those men are out there! ;-).

Dag Nabbit :banghead: :banghead:

:crying: :crying:

Where the heck was I when he was walking by

My head stuck in some ultra left wing feminist rant no doubt reading about why there’s no good men left in the world

Congratulations to you Doc - I wish you every good thing for the future with your lovely man

 

[DrPiano]

Dag Nabbit
Where the heck was I when he was walking by

My head stuck in some ultra left wing feminist rant no doubt reading about why there’s no good men left in the world

Congratulations to you Doc - I wish you every good thing for the future with your lovely man

As a side-note, while its a hobby, not a career, we race cars together (autocrossing )