Do most women TRULY appreciate good men?

[Sailor_Kenshin]

Something I notice in old sitcoms and other stories is the single woman or, in Lucy’s case, married woman with too much time on her hands, who makes mistakes and panics and is guided by some stern man and is actually relieved he is there to keep her from doing anything risky. Today’s relative prosperity makes it possible to live alone extrahappy: ), and we found soon enough we could learn to evaluate financial risks and survive a few bad decisions, and we had the wiggle room it took to learn to do a good job of running our own lives. We had to do so while doing everything else too, and became clever and quick. We learned how to keep many things in mind at once. Now we get impatient with men, some of whom haven’t kept up.

I don’t think that’s a GOOD thing. All it does is break up families and breed disrespect for men. Men and women NEED each other.

 

[whatevergirl]

I don’t think that’s a GOOD thing. All it does is break up families and breed disrespect for men. Men and women NEED each other.

that is so true, but think he is talking about singlehood, and how it’s not a bad thing, as it was once considered. this is my guess with the post.

 

[marietta]

“The man who is enthralled by Beethoven, enchanted by Shakespeare, and en-captured by the memoirs of St Therese is not BORING. He is the very substance of what it is to be truly human.”

Respectfully, the man you have described above would put me into a coma.

marietta

 

[marietta]

“Men and women NEED each other.”

Correction: SOME men need women; SOME women need men.

marietta

 

[chevalier]

The whole time the girls will say “I just want to be friends” and the ‘nice guy’ will agree. But in actuality they are lying because the ‘nice guys’ don’t want to just be friends, they want more.
Then the ‘nice guys’ will come to resent and silently fume over all the mistakes and imperfections of the ‘other guys’ that the girl is interested in.
know what I mean?
Sometimes the ‘nice guy’ can only see himself in the nice guy role and fails to see that he’s lying to the girl when he tells her “Yeah, of course I just want to be friends.”
Sometimes the ‘nice guy’ thinks that he’s the good one because most of his actions are passive-aggressive instead of forthright.

Hmm… I’m not sure I fully understand the exact of what you mean in the first paragraph. The girls often lie when they say they just want to be friends because they want more? This I get. But is the implication that they want more but don’t realise it, or is it that they want more and want the guy to claim it?

I often have the impression that “just friends” arrangements tend to have some weak points in them and some things that aren’t really “just friends”. Some of the “just friends” are like boyfriends except the strictly romantic stuff. Might well work the other way round, with guys acting the same way. I don’t really see anything gender-specific in it.

Right on with passive-aggressive. To men’s defence, it’s sometimes hard to tell if the woman wants the man to fight her just-friends resolution or to try to gain her favour by proving himself by peace and persistence, or to take the heed and get over her. The man who can’t take a no will sometimes win in this configuration and it might indeed be a game of who’s better at forcing his will on others. I am not saying, however, that women don’t experience this problem with men - they well might.

I also think it’s really hard to catagorize people into
‘nice guy’ and ‘bad guy’. Obviously both kind of guys make mistakes and can act selfishly, but we should take each guy on a case by case basis and not paint them all with one broad stroke.

Yup. But if we’re talking about who’s attracted to what, I think a generalisation might be justified to some extent.

If a woman or man is attracted to the ‘wrong’ kind of person, then that doesn’t automatically make them heartless, selfish, evil, etc… it just means that they don’t have it all figured out yet. Alot of it has to do with low self-esteem and maturity levels.

Strictly speaking, being attracted to someone who is attracted to the wrong persons may already constitute being attracted to the wrong persons of itself.

I still maintain that alot of the self-proclaimed ‘good guys’ are just as fallen as the ‘other guys’ they might not cheat or blatently lie, but they sin too, you know? Also if they burn with resentment about being passed up, overlooked, not recognized as being the right one…, then they really aren’t doing anyone any favors and end up being the ‘bad’ sort of guy with emotional baggage that girls should try to avoid. (what I mean by that, is if I had a daughter that was attracted to a guy that focused so much about disliking other peoples relationship choices, then I would advise her to find someone else that has overcome those sorts of issues)

Sadly, that is true, and I would offer the same advice. It is sad, however, what leads those guys to becoming what they eventually become. It’s hard to come out unscathed. On the other hand, we shouldn’t want unscathed people if we aren’t ourselves unscathed, should we? The end result is that we don’t have much ground for dismissing people because of a single shortcoming, such as being somewhat jaded. Or making some poor choices.

 

[duskyjewel]

chevalier, McGar’s point was the the “nice guy” was lying by agreeing to be friends when he really wants more. Then he gets bitter about watching the girl date others because he is “just a friend.”

 

[HappyPerson]

I still maintain that alot of the self-proclaimed ‘good guys’ are just as fallen as the ‘other guys’ they might not cheat or blatently lie, but they sin too, you know? Also if they burn with resentment about being passed up, overlooked, not recognized as being the right one…, then they really aren’t doing anyone any favors and end up being the ‘bad’ sort of guy with emotional baggage that girls should try to avoid. (what I mean by that, is if I had a daughter that was attracted to a guy that focused so much about disliking other peoples relationship choices, then I would advise her to find someone else that has overcome those sorts of issues)

This sounds like a sour grapes rationalization towards dating a “bad guy.” It is too sweeping a generalization.

The so-called “emotional baggage” you speak of will disappear if the right woman gives them a chance. It is like the unemployed teacher who resents his profession on the grounds that his own education seemingly got him nowhere. Once, however, he finally gets that full-time teaching position, he respects perseverance and his resentment goes away. The same applies for the single guy who treats women with respect. When he finally meets the right one, he respects perseverance, and that past resentment goes away. If a single straight guy reaches a certain age without some degree of resentment towards women, I would suspect that he had been a womanizer. So, please rethink your advice to your daughter, as it would lead her to the wrong guys and deter her from the right one.

Now, as for someone who OBSESSES over other people’s bad choices, and still does after dating your daughter, that might be a sign that he doesn’t appreciate her, in which case it would be good advice.

As I said, however the way a guy is going to “overcome” those issues is by meeting the RIGHT woman. Or, by renouncing women entirely for the sake of devotion to God. It is by God’s grace, either way.

As for the “nice guy” lying about wanting to be “just friends,” I can tell you that I don’t tell any girl that I want to be just friends with her when I want something more. This life is too short to be “just friends” with single people of the opposite sex who you are attracted to. That is putting yourself through torture. You become paranoid every time you see her talking to any other guy. No, either I have no romantic interest in her, I am in an exclusive committed relationship with her, or I don’t talk to her. Those are the three options. Anything else is self-destructive.

 

[Magicsilence]

“The man who is enthralled by Beethoven, enchanted by Shakespeare, and en-captured by the memoirs of St Therese is not BORING. He is the very substance of what it is to be truly human.”

Respectfully, the man you have described above would put me into a coma.

marietta

If you don’t appreciate some of the finest music ever played, the finest literature ever written, and the spiritual insight from one of the greatest saints of recent memory, then, yeah, we shouldn’t date

OTOH, if that was ALL someone did, it would get pretty tiresome.

‘Good men’ also enjoy spending time with the kids playing sports, taking their wives to romantic restaurants, praying together, cooking great meals, watching a film, participating at Mass, having friends over, and ultimately, loving their family (including taking turns to change diapers ).

Come to think of it, what exactly would you NOT find boring?

 

[MCGar]

This sounds like a sour grapes rationalization towards dating a “bad guy.” It is too sweeping a generalization.

Actually I think it’s the opposite of a generalization. It’s too tempting to label a person as a ‘good’ guy or a ‘bad’ guy if you really don’t know them. Both kind of guys usually sin, it just really depends on what kinds of sinning is going on. I’m just trying to point out that even with the labels of good/bad that doesn’t automatically mean each is really truly all good or bad.
By the way, I’m not upset but saying my opinion on things is sour grapes, could be regarded as insulting.

The so-called “emotional baggage” you speak of will disappear if the right woman gives them a chance. It is like the unemployed teacher who resents his profession on the grounds that his own education seemingly got him nowhere. Once, however, he finally gets that full-time teaching position, he respects perseverance and his resentment goes away. The same applies for the single guy who treats women with respect. When he finally meets the right one, he respects perseverance, and that past resentment goes away. If a single straight guy reaches a certain age without some degree of resentment towards women, I would suspect that he had been a womanizer. So, please rethink your advice to your daughter, as it would lead her to the wrong guys and deter her from the right one.

Well, we don’t really know that do we? I mean emotional baggage doesn’t have a complete and factual gaurantee that it will go away on command, or when you get what you want.
As for the ‘right’ or ‘wrong’ guy, it’s a little presumptous that the guy who believes he’s the ‘good’ guy and follows all his own moral code (and hopefully the Church’s moral code) is automatically the ‘right’ guy. The right guy is the one that God helps you choose in my opinion. The one that will work with you in the Sacrament of Marriage and help you get into heaven even though he might be imperfect and have a fallen nature (usually the same as the girl).

As for the “nice guy” lying about wanting to be “just friends,” I can tell you that I don’t tell any girl that I want to be just friends with her when I want something more. This life is too short to be “just friends” with single people of the opposite sex who you are attracted to. That is putting yourself through torture. You become paranoid every time you see her talking to any other guy. No, either I have no romantic interest in her, I am in an exclusive committed relationship with her, or I don’t talk to her. Those are the three options. Anything else is self-destructive.

Well keep in mind, the original post did have a question about good guys and bad guys, I didn’t automatically assume to be talking about you specifically. I don’t know about how you deal with things with girls in real life, only how you type in cyberspace.
I only added my opinion on good/bad guys based on what I’ve seen and experianced.

I can probably bet a few donuts that there are more than a few ladies here that have those type of ‘good’ guys proclaim to them that they just want to be friends while the whole time wanting more and strongly resenting the ‘other’ guys imperfections (and bemoaning the fact that they are such good guys and always get the short end of the stick).

I’m not saying you are one of those guys, I’m just saying that this kind of situation is what I’ve come across when anybody starts talking about how much of a nice guy they are.

 

[MCGar]

I’ll give an example.

I know a guy that bemoaned the fact that he was taken advantage of by a girl because he was such a good guy.

To hear him talk and to witness alot of the stuff he truthfully did for her, you would think that she was the wicked witch of the west. He was like a very trodden doormat.

But the rest of the story was he really didn’t respect her. He didn’t respect her opinions. Even if she was wrong factually he didn’t have the kindness/compassion/etc… to respect that she got to a certain opinion or belief because of her own experiances.

He wanted a home, family, wife, etc, and he gave her alot because he loved her and decided she was the one.

But he still held her in a certain amount of contempt.

Well, she might take advantage of him, but he also took advantage of her in his own way.

Please don’t think this is an ill-desguised story about me. I’ve witnessed this up-and-down relationship for over 2 years, and have been very careful to keep my mouth shut about it, even though I get an earful about every other month.

oh, and during their break-ups, he always ‘just wanted to be friends.’

 

[whatevergirl]

I think that if more people became what they are looking for in a potential spouse, the odds of meeting that right spouse would increase. Not guaranteed, but if we become more of the qualities we are seeking, we will be more able to seek out similiar qualities in others. For example–I sometimes would marvel at a guy friend of mine back in college, who would lament about how he could never find the right girl. I asked* what is the right girl to you?* Pretty much, he was looking for someone ‘hot’ who was in great shape…etc…meanwhile, he never worked out, and was overweight. So, I said…why do you expect women you date to stay in great shape, when you don’t?

This applies to so much in life. Or the opposite sometimes happen. The over achiever wants to try to rescue the person who is lost and lazy. Or the person who is always organized is drawn to the person who isn’t. Granted, I still believe that opposites attract. I’m a total slob, and my hubby is a neat freak. That being said…these aren’t deal breakers. Deal breakers are when devout Catholics date people who try to keep them from living out their faith, or try to tempt them into sin.

Sorry for the ramble, but to me…become who you want to attract, and you should have healthier relationships. (I’m not saying this just to the OP…I’m just saying this in general) And for men I say this especially–look beyond the exterior. I am teaching my son this. So often, men will fall in love on beauty alone. While it’s good to be attracted to the person you are dating/thinking of marrying…make sure there is substance there, and that her beauty doesn’t blind you to serious moral flaws.

 

[Magicsilence]

I think that if more people became what they are looking for in a potential spouse, the odds of meeting that right spouse would increase. Not guaranteed, but if we become more of the qualities we are seeking, we will be more able to seek out similiar qualities in others. For example–I sometimes would marvel at a guy friend of mine back in college, who would lament about how he could never find the right girl. I asked* what is the right girl to you?* Pretty much, he was looking for someone ‘hot’ who was in great shape…etc…meanwhile, he never worked out, and was overweight. So, I said…why do you expect women you date to stay in great shape, when you don’t?

This applies to so much in life. Or the opposite sometimes happen. The over achiever wants to try to rescue the person who is lost and lazy. Or the person who is always organized is drawn to the person who isn’t. Granted, I still believe that opposites attract. I’m a total slob, and my hubby is a neat freak. That being said…these aren’t deal breakers. Deal breakers are when devout Catholics date people who try to keep them from living out their faith, or try to tempt them into sin.

Sorry for the ramble, but to me…become who you want to attract, and you should have healthier relationships. (I’m not saying this just to the OP…I’m just saying this in general) And for men I say this especially–look beyond the exterior. I am teaching my son this. So often, men will fall in love on beauty alone. While it’s good to be attracted to the person you are dating/thinking of marrying…make sure there is substance there, and that her beauty doesn’t blind you to serious moral flaws.

I didn’t think this was a ramble at all, WG. I think it is brilliant advice, as always

A question though: to what extent do women expect men to keep in shape? At what point does it become ‘gross’ or obsessional?

 

[royal_archer]

chevalier, McGar’s point was the the “nice guy” was lying by agreeing to be friends when he really wants more. Then he gets bitter about watching the girl date others because he is “just a friend.”

So the girl turns down they guy and he is unhappy about it but respects the girls decision… and you think there is something wrong with that? Should he clobber her over the head and drag her back to his cave by the hair? Should he stalk her? Should he beat up any guy who she does go out with? Should he assume that when she says"NO" she really doesn’t mean “NO” and “take what he wants”?

 

[royal_archer]

If you don’t appreciate some of the finest music ever played, the finest literature ever written, and the spiritual insight from one of the greatest saints of recent memory, then, yeah, we shouldn’t date

OTOH, if that was ALL someone did, it would get pretty tiresome.

‘Good men’ also enjoy spending time with the kids playing sports, taking their wives to romantic restaurants, praying together, cooking great meals, watching a film, participating at Mass, having friends over, and ultimately, loving their family (including taking turns to change diapers ).

Come to think of it, what exactly would you NOT find boring?

Unfortunately women will never know that about someone if all they are looking for is the domineering pretty boy who knows how to work the crowd. The things that make someone interesting at a bar or a first meeting are not necesarilly what make someone a good partner for life.

 

[MCGar]

So the girl turns down they guy and he is unhappy about it but respects the girls decision… and you think there is something wrong with that? Should he clobber her over the head and drag her back to his cave by the hair? Should he stalk her? Should he beat up any guy who she does go out with? Should he assume that when she says"NO" she really doesn’t mean “NO” and “take what he wants”?

I missed those earlier posts in response to mine.

I think the ending result is basically; A guy isn’t really respecting a girls decision to just be friends if he in actuality doesn’t want to ‘just be friends’ and sits around resenting all the faults of the guy(s) she dates.

In my book, that’s not a friend.

He can choose to move on, or if he prefers to, try again. But be completely honest in his intentions.

I don’t know where the stalking, clobbering, and taking what he wants, statements come from. But I’ve reread my posts and I don’t think I insinuated those things at all. I do apologize if I came across that way though.

p.s. although I will say that I’m starting to get paranoid that I seem to be the only one that sees this sort of trend.
I’m not saying this is common among the majority of guys. But I’ve just seen too many examples of it myself. I wonder if it’s just the area I live in or something:shrug:

 

[whatevergirl]

I didn’t think this was a ramble at all, WG. I think it is brilliant advice, as always

A question though: to what extent do women expect men to keep in shape? At what point does it become ‘gross’ or obsessional?

Hi Magic

I was just using it as an example from a guy I used to know back in college who wanted something, he wasn’t doing himself. lol:blush:

But…I think that if I were single again, I would want a guy to treat his body as a temple for the Lord. Exercise…eat healthy…not obsessive…but don’t smoke or drink in excess. (no smoking at all, but oddly enough, I made an exception for my hubby–who now, has quit smoking…but love is blind! lol) I dated all types of guys, ranging from bad boys with tatooes to nerds. I’m not a good person to ask. I never knew at that time, that dating was for marriage discernment.

To answer your question–just treat your body as a temple of the Lord…not obsessive…not in a vain way. In a way that pleases God, and the rest will follow.

Argh! God should let us have one do over in life!

 

[whatevergirl]

Unfortunately women will never know that about someone if all they are looking for is the domineering pretty boy who knows how to work the crowd. The things that make someone interesting at a bar or a first meeting are not necesarilly what make someone a good partner for life.

I agree – but sometimes, women and men have to learn the hard way. Making mistakes isn’t always a bad thing. I have learned valuable lessons from the mistakes I have made. It’s in not learning anything from them, and REPEATING THEM that can be costly.

 

[royal_archer]

I missed those earlier posts in response to mine.

I think the ending result is basically; A guy isn’t really respecting a girls decision to just be friends if he in actuality doesn’t want to ‘just be friends’ and sits around resenting all the faults of the guy(s) she dates.

In my book, that’s not a friend.

He can choose to move on, or if he prefers to, try again. But be completely honest in his intentions.

I don’t know where the stalking, clobbering, and taking what he wants, statements come from. But I’ve reread my posts and I don’t think I insinuated those things at all. I do apologize if I came across that way though.

p.s. although I will say that I’m starting to get paranoid that I seem to be the only one that sees this sort of trend.
I’m not saying this is common among the majority of guys. But I’ve just seen too many examples of it myself. I wonder if it’s just the area I live in or something:shrug:

Not so much one post but a common thread in several posts which seemed to fault guys who accepted the answer that the girl just wants to be friends. I just want to be friends is this era’s equivalent to Dear John. It is a clear sign that the girl is not interested. Whether a guy likes it or not is something he has control of. He has two choices accept the decision or not. My examples were obviously figurative, not literal but what do you expect the guy to do? If the guy who is rejected thinks “I don’t care what you want and what you communicated to me I am going to take what I want” is he really going to be a good partner for life?

 

[royal_archer]

I agree – but sometimes, women and men have to learn the hard way. Making mistakes isn’t always a bad thing. I have learned valuable lessons from the mistakes I have made. It’s in not learning anything from them, and REPEATING THEM that can be costly.

Unfortunately some lessons are very costly. the problem is with the stereotypical when women have four kids to three fathers. Each successive itteration of mistakes makes it harder and harder for them to find a decent spouse.

One of the problems, as I see it, is we as a society are unwilling to show tough love. We coddle and romanticize those who make bad mistakes instead of recognizing the mistakes. My generation needs to be more active in helping the youngins not repeat our mistakes.

 

[HappyPerson]

I missed those earlier posts in response to mine.

I think the ending result is basically; A guy isn’t really respecting a girls decision to just be friends if he in actuality doesn’t want to ‘just be friends’ and sits around resenting all the faults of the guy(s) she dates.

In my book, that’s not a friend.

He can choose to move on, or if he prefers to, try again. But be completely honest in his intentions.

I don’t know where the stalking, clobbering, and taking what he wants, statements come from. But I’ve reread my posts and I don’t think I insinuated those things at all. I do apologize if I came across that way though.

p.s. although I will say that I’m starting to get paranoid that I seem to be the only one that sees this sort of trend.
I’m not saying this is common among the majority of guys. But I’ve just seen too many examples of it myself. I wonder if it’s just the area I live in or something:shrug:

What you are describing does in fact commonly happen. I think, however that the issue some of us are taking with it is that you are attacking the integrity and character of the man over this, when the woman is more at fault than he is.

Like it or not, ladies, if a guy blatantly expresses interest in you, and you tell him you just want to be friends, and actually continue initiating and entertaining conversations with him, your behavior constitutes LEADING HIM ON, regardless of the nature of your conversations.

This is NOT fair to women, but it is reality. There are so many women out there who play, “hard to get,” that any attempt a woman makes to remain “friends” with a guy who has CLEARLY communicated to her that he wants to be more than friends, is leading him on. She needs to avoid him so that her actions are consistent with her words.

Whether the woman has sadistic intentions (she wants to hurt him), selfish intentions (she likes the attention) or is just completely naive to this FACT, she is still guilty of leading him on.

Is he being a fool for even trying to be friends with her? Absolutely. For me, if a woman turns me down, or gives me the “just friends” speech, I completely lose all romantic interest in her, because part of what I desire in a woman is the belief that she reciprocates my feelings for her. Without that, I don’t feel that even a friendship is worth pursuing with her.

And, yes, men, it is a two-way street. I would hope that we all would also have the common decency to avoid a “friendship” with a woman who has CLEARLY communicated romantic interest in us, if we didn’t feel that way towards her. Even talking to her would constitute leading her on, and as we wouldn’t want women doing that to us, we can’t do that to them, either.

In other words, sure men and women can be “just friends” but as soon as one expresses romantic interest, the “friend” thing ends. It is the other one’s responsibility to either reciprocate the feelings and become a couple, or stop being friends.