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FrDavid96
Guest
Since no one asked the question “is there salvation outside the Church?”…
…your answer is entirely meaningless.
Someone asks “what is 2 + 2 ?”
You answer “blue.”
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…your answer is entirely meaningless.
Someone asks “what is 2 + 2 ?”
You answer “blue.”
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GaryTaylor
Guest
Strangely enough, the two most controversial documents" for the SSPX – those on religious freedom [Dignitatis humanae] and on relations with non-Christians [Nostra aetate] – “do not have a binding doctrinal content, so one can dialogue about them,” the cardinal said. “So I don’t understand why our friends in the Society of St. Pius X concentrate almost exclusively on these two texts. And I’m sorry that they do so, because these are the two that are most easy to accept if we consider their canonical nature” as non-binding, he said.
Cardinal Brandmuller
Strangely enough I can’t see why this particular document is a point of contention here?
rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2012/05/card-brandmuller-nostra-aetate-and.html
Cardinal Brandmuller
Strangely enough I can’t see why this particular document is a point of contention here?
rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2012/05/card-brandmuller-nostra-aetate-and.html
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GaryTaylor
Guest
How about above meaning less? So all those muslims who deny Christ are they ignorant? As you see we past the failing rhetoric.
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FrDavid96
Guest
So then, let’s look at the Dogmatic Constitution on the Church. That’s “Dogmatic” mind you…
Lumen Gentium
16…But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. …
vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html
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GaryTaylor
Guest
Perhaps it would better to discuss this issue as I have been politely suggesting throughout this thread, and after being incorrectly accused of Church misunderstanding, being ignorant, asking all the questions I ultimately answered myself. The True-False and False is True rhetoric is resolved with unknown, and in this thread. I really don’t get it. And I answered everything about the points above in the last two pages no need to repeat. There is nothing binding with “we worship the same god as muslims” sorry.
I take this in fact to mean I do not have to state anything affirmative about “we worship the same god as muslims” In fact I vehemently disagree. “Unknown shadows-CCC”, not what I worship. In fact as I have also been suggesting I think its a terrible argument. Now if someone wants to promote that or defend it, then be my guest. Little bit much one would impose their will on others to believe in buying into the argument.
In fact the Cardinal suggested we should be discussing this. And no salvation is actually part of the content/context of the CCC in question. So yes I think that should be understood in context and content with the debated point here.
Perhaps someone can show me how Mohammed worshipped anything but false gods being the logical result of his false doctrine which is 100 percent affirmed on this thread?
Peace
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FrDavid96
Guest
16…In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind…
Each and all these items which are set forth in this dogmatic Constitution have met with the approval of the Council Fathers. And We by the apostolic power given Us by Christ together with the Venerable Fathers in the Holy Spirit, approve, decree and establish it and command that what has thus been decided in the Council be promulgated for the glory of God.
Lumen Gentium, the Dogmatic Constitution on the Church
Approved by a vote of the Extraordinary Magisterium of the Church, assembled in Ecumenical Council (2,151 affirmative and 5 negative) and solemnly promulgated by the Supreme Pontiff Paul VI on 21 November 1964
But Gary says they don’t know what they’re saying.
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GaryTaylor
Guest
Father there is nothing there about us worshipping the same God you read the Cardinals statement. I’m stunned you want to go over this again I just did that two pages ago and point buy point. “unknown shadows” the conclusion.16…In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind…
Each and all these items which are set forth in this dogmatic Constitution have met with the approval of the Council Fathers. And We by the apostolic power given Us by Christ together with the Venerable Fathers in the Holy Spirit, approve, decree and establish it and command that what has thus been decided in the Council be promulgated for the glory of God.
Lumen Gentium, the Dogmatic Constitution on the Church
Approved by a vote of the Extraordinary Magisterium of the Church, assembled in Ecumenical Council (2,151 affirmative and 5 negative) and solemnly promulgated by the Supreme Pontiff Paul VI on 21 November 1964
But Gary says they don’t know what they’re saying.
And why would you want to promote a debate when Christians are seeking unity over that specific point?
meltzerboy
New member
Much has been made of the word “profess” by those who say it is used in the sense of “to lay claim insincerely.” However, this is clearly not in accord with the context of the whole passage, which you point out by citing the phrase “along with us.” In this sense, the word “profess” is not meant to be insincere but rather “to state openly.”
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oldcatholicguy
Guest
If you don’t mind me asking, what does Judaism teach about this in regards to Christians and Muslims?
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GaryTaylor
Guest
Right profess is usually my starting point. They profess many different things. The context I posted earlier since the debate came back around since the encyclical was addressed.
Further past the sacrament of Baptism is intimately connected to the Eucharist which derives from New Testament accounts of the Last Supper, in which Christ blessed the Apostles’ meal and told them to take it and eat of him. This act countered the blood sacrifice of the Old Testament, and predicted Christ’s own sacrifice on the cross, an event key to Salvation. Further in baptism we reach the supernatural imposed virtue of grace for the remission of sin as is professed in the Creed, from here too we can identify the protestants.
The Covenant’s of the Lord are through Abraham and Moses and both spiritual and intact. In which case so too we can identify the Jews
327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God’s revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews “belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ”,328 "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."329 "
Pope Benedict “Israel is in the hands of God, who will save it ‘as a whole’ at the proper time, when the number of Gentiles is full,” the pope writes. He says that Christians should “wait for the time fixed for this by God” rather than attempting to convert the Jewish people.
While the Pope affirms that salvation only comes through Jesus Christ, he argues that the mission of the Church is primarily to the Gentiles, and cites the belief of St. Bernard that God will bring Jews into the fold at a time “that cannot be anticipated.” Jesus of Nazareth part II.
So as the Pope agrees, we reach a point here unknown. “that cannot be anticipated.” but still somewhat defined.
“The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator” so Islam comes into play. All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth thus Adam and Eve thus the fall and Gods commandments/covenants.
Still on Islam
And also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness.
He created you to exist, you cannot not exist. You can only not cooperate with Gods grace thus his covenants and commandments.
The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as “a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life.” The length of life spoken of is eternal life. Which gets back to the covenants and commandments thus the spiritual law.
In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them: Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.
“Outside the Church there is no salvation”
Further past the sacrament of Baptism is intimately connected to the Eucharist which derives from New Testament accounts of the Last Supper, in which Christ blessed the Apostles’ meal and told them to take it and eat of him. This act countered the blood sacrifice of the Old Testament, and predicted Christ’s own sacrifice on the cross, an event key to Salvation. Further in baptism we reach the supernatural imposed virtue of grace for the remission of sin as is professed in the Creed, from here too we can identify the protestants.
The Covenant’s of the Lord are through Abraham and Moses and both spiritual and intact. In which case so too we can identify the Jews
327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God’s revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews “belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ”,328 "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."329 "
Pope Benedict “Israel is in the hands of God, who will save it ‘as a whole’ at the proper time, when the number of Gentiles is full,” the pope writes. He says that Christians should “wait for the time fixed for this by God” rather than attempting to convert the Jewish people.
While the Pope affirms that salvation only comes through Jesus Christ, he argues that the mission of the Church is primarily to the Gentiles, and cites the belief of St. Bernard that God will bring Jews into the fold at a time “that cannot be anticipated.” Jesus of Nazareth part II.
So as the Pope agrees, we reach a point here unknown. “that cannot be anticipated.” but still somewhat defined.
“The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator” so Islam comes into play. All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth thus Adam and Eve thus the fall and Gods commandments/covenants.
Still on Islam
And also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness.
He created you to exist, you cannot not exist. You can only not cooperate with Gods grace thus his covenants and commandments.
The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as “a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life.” The length of life spoken of is eternal life. Which gets back to the covenants and commandments thus the spiritual law.
In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them: Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.
“Outside the Church there is no salvation”
meltzerboy
New member
Judaism never had any qualms about the fact that Jews and Muslims worship the same G-d. (Ironic, isn’t it, considering we are always at war with one another?) Jews and Christians worshiping the same G-d, however, was for a long time a thorny issue since Judaism is not Trinitarian and Christianity is. In recent years, however, even most Orthodox Jews (though not all) agree that Jews and Christians also worship the same G-d.
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oldcatholicguy
Guest
Thank you for the response.
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FrDavid96
Guest
You cannot reconcile your claim of “unknown” with the words of the ChurchFather there is nothing there about us worshipping the same God you read the Cardinals statement. I’m stunned you want to go over this again I just did that two pages ago and point buy point. “unknown shadows” the conclusion.
And why would you want to promote a debate when Christians are seeking unity over that specific point?
16…But the plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Muslims, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind. …
Each and all these items which are set forth in this dogmatic Constitution have met with the approval of the Council Fathers. And We by the apostolic power given Us by Christ together with the Venerable Fathers in the Holy Spirit, approve, decree and establish it and command that what has thus been decided in the Council be promulgated for the glory of God.
The Council Fathers were hardly saying “what we just said is just conjecture, and it’s unknown whether or not what we just wrote is actually true. We’re just guessing here.”
And no, I’m not going to address the issue of the SSPX, which you want to drag into the conversation. I’m throwing that red herring back to its mother.
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Tom_Baum
Guest
I might be one of those that you may be speaking of, but if you would take notice of what I have written, I have said nothing in a negative (bigotry, intolerance, and hatred, empowered by a very hefty dose of ignorance) concerning Muslims.
I have met satan and I don’t like satan and since the “god of islam”, according to the koran, not only denies that Jesus Is Who He Is but than claims Jesus as his prophet, I am merely pointing this out.
Jesus did ask us, all of us, a very simple question, “Who do you say that I Am?”.
Muslims don’t believe that Jesus Is God-Incarnate and that is fine, as I have said, “God is a searcher of hearts and minds, not of religious affiliations or lack thereof”.
The thing is you don’t answer to me, nobody does, I am merely a messenger and I just can’t seem to understand how anyone, not just you, can say that the two statements, 1) Jesus Is God-Incarnate and 2) Jesus is not God-Incarnate but is merely a prophet, are compatible in the sense that they are both referring to the same God.
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GaryTaylor
Guest
Right there’s no explicit understanding or is it defined as with the Jews, nor does it say anything explicit about :“worship” the same God, it said adore and in a very implicit manner, Then we reach as we read the further context and content which is “unkown shadows”. I don’t see it.
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GaryTaylor
Guest
“And no, I’m not going to address the issue of the SSPX, which you want to drag into the conversation. I’m throwing that red herring back to its mother.”
What about the Cardinals statement on the encyclical? Is that a no comment? Did seem to be relevant to you and the backbone of your argument? What about that red herring?
What about the Cardinals statement on the encyclical? Is that a no comment? Did seem to be relevant to you and the backbone of your argument? What about that red herring?
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josie_L
Guest
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GaryTaylor
Guest
I’m gonna go with the Cardinal, that’s OK no?
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SoMissCatholic
Guest
adore
transitive verb \ə-ˈdȯr\
1: to worship or honor as a deity or as divine.
As Webster’s shows, “adore” means “worship,” so when the Church says that Muslims “along with us adore the one and merciful God,” it quite literally means that we worship the same God.
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GaryTaylor
Guest
Are you serious? I adore my children I worship Jesus Christ.
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