Do Muslims and Catholics worship the same God?

[FrDavid96]

That is a good explanation, but I would like to make a comment on one small aspect?

“The key words are “though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God.” In other words, they don’t “acknowledge” that He is God, but that doesn’t change the fact that He is”.

Consider “Fact” indicates a matter under discussion is deemed to be true or correct. If we say something is seen as Fact, it may only be Fact for the specific Belief and Faith. Others may not see it as “Fact”.

Thus this “Fact” could be and has been subject to Change, In “Fact” people do prove that this is the case!

God Bless and Regards Tony

Sure, Tony. That’s why I prefaced my comments by the words “To a Christian…”

To a Christian, the Trinity is fact.

In the same way, I would only expect that you would use similar language in describing your religion to me. If your faith sees something as a question, I would expect you to describe it that way; but I would also expect you to describe what you believe as fact in a way that articulates your beliefs rather than mine.

For a Christian, sharing the Gospel is a must; and hoping (and working) that you will accept the Gospel someday is also a must for us. Of course, that doesn’t mean shoving a Bible in your face and saying “read this or you’ll go to Hell!” Unfortunately, some here in the US seem to think that’s the way to do it. They like to ring doorbells on Saturday mornings. But I digress…

 

[FrDavid96]

The Catechism is a “sure norm” for our faith, according to Blessed John Paul II.

In the section that you quoted, the Catechism references the highest authority in the church: an ecumenical council,

Paragraph 16 of The Dogmatic Constitution on the Church (Lumen Gentium) of the Second Vatican Council reads, in part:

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

The Catechism is therefore simply “lifting” straight from the council Fathers. This is a DOGMATIC constitution.

The reference in turn for this paragraph of the Vatican II document is: Cf St. Gregory VII, letter XXI to Anzir (Nacir), King of Mauritania.

And quoted yet again by Blessed John Paul II

John Paul II, Message to the faithful of Islam at the end of the month of Ramadan, April 3, 1991

“To all Muslims throughout the world, I wish to express the readiness of the Catholic Church to work together with you and all the people of good will to aid the victims of the war and to build structures of a lasting peace not only in the Middle East, but everywhere. This cooperation in solidarity towards the most afflicted can form the concrete basis for a sincere, profound and constant dialogue between believing Catholics and believing Muslims, from which there can arise a strengthened mutual knowledge and trust, and the assurance that each one everywhere will be able to profess freely and authentically his or her own faith.

“Injustice, oppression, aggression, greed, failure to forgive, desire for revenge, and unwillingness to enter into dialogue and negotiate: these are merely some of the factors which lead people to depart from the way in which God desires us to live on this planet. We must all learn to recognize these elements in our own lives and societies, and find ways to overcome them. Only when individuals and groups undertake this education for peace can we build a fraternal and united world, freed from war and violence.

“I close my greeting to you with the words of one of my predecessors, Pope Gregory VII who in 1076 wrote to Al-Nasir, the Muslim Ruler of Bijaya, present day Algeria: ‘Almighty God, who wishes that all should be saved and none lost, approves nothing in so much as that after loving Him one should love his fellow man, and that one should not do to others, what one does not want done to oneself. You and we owe this charity to ourselves especially because we believe in and confess one God, admittedly, in a different way, and daily praise and venerate him, the creator of the world and ruler of this world.’

“These words, written almost a thousand years ago, express my feelings to you today as you celebrate ‘Id al-Fitr, the Feast of the Breaking of the Fast. May the Most High God fill us with all His merciful love and peace.”

 

[Vouthon]

And quoted yet again by Blessed John Paul II

John Paul II, Message to the faithful of Islam at the end of the month of Ramadan, April 3, 1991

Yes indeed!

He also said on another occasion:

“…Christians and Muslims, we have many things in common, as believers and as human beings. We live in the same world, marked by many signs of hope, but also by multiple signs of anguish. For us, Abraham is a very model of faith in God, of submission to his will and of confidence in his goodness. We believe in the same God, the one God, the living God, the God who created the world and brings his creatures to their perfection…The Catholic Church regards with respect and recognizes the equality of your religious progress, the richness of your spiritual tradition…On this path, you are assured, of the esteem and the collaboration of your Catholic brothers and sisters whom I represent among you this evening…”

- Blessed Pope John Paul II: Address to young Muslims in Casablanca, 1985

 

[RPRPsych]

I didn’t go to the answering-islam site, so maybe he covered this already, but the root of the word used in the Qur’an, makara (مكر), comes from the room M-K-R, which can mean craftiness, wiliness, deceit, deception, trick, guile, etc., depending on context. Looking at translations not made by Sam Shamoun, we see forms like: “And they (the disbelievers) schemed, and Allah schemed (against them): and Allah is the best of schemers” (Pickthall) and “And (the unbelievers) plotted and planned, and Allah too planned, and the best of planners is Allah” (Yusuf Ali). It seems that the point is not in what adjective you use to describe Allah, but in that whatever the unbelievers do, Allah outdoes them in that. This is the Qur’an version of the old Irving Berlin song “Anything you can do I can do better”, if you will.

And there’s the Psalm which goes “With the crafty, you show yourself crafty” referring to YHWH.

The Douay has an ever harsher translation: “And with the elect thou wilt be elect: and with the perverse thou wilt be perverted.” (Psalm 17 (18): 26)

It doesn’t literally mean that God is a pervert.

 

[GaryTaylor]

IN BRIEF

44 Man is by nature and vocation a religious being. Coming from God, going toward God, man lives a fully human life only if he freely lives by his bond with God.

45 Man is made to live in communion with God in whom he finds happiness: When I am completely united to you, there will be no more sorrow or trials; entirely full of you, my life will be complete (St. Augustine, Conf. 10, 28, 39: PL 32, 795}.

46 When he listens to the message of creation and to the voice of conscience, man can arrive at certainty about the existence of God, the cause and the end of everything.

47 The Church teaches that the one true God, our Creator and Lord, can be known with certainty from his works, by the natural light of human reason (cf. Vatican Council I, can. 2 # 1: DS 3026),

48 WE REALLY CAN NAME HIM, starting from the manifold perfections of his creatures, which are likenesses of the infinitely perfect God, even if our limited language cannot exhaust the mystery.

49 Without the Creator, the creature vanishes (GS 36). This is the reason why believers know that the love of Christ urges them to bring the light of the living God to those who do not know him or who reject him.

 

[tonyfish58]

Sure, Tony. That’s why I prefaced my comments by the words “To a Christian…”

To a Christian, the Trinity is fact.

In the same way, I would only expect that you would use similar language in describing your religion to me. If your faith sees something as a question, I would expect you to describe it that way; but I would also expect you to describe what you believe as fact in a way that articulates your beliefs rather than mine.

For a Christian, sharing the Gospel is a must; and hoping (and working) that you will accept the Gospel someday is also a must for us. Of course, that doesn’t mean shoving a Bible in your face and saying “read this or you’ll go to Hell!” Unfortunately, some here in the US seem to think that’s the way to do it. They like to ring doorbells on Saturday mornings. But I digress…

It may be of Interest that this is what I think of the Bible - Inscription in the Old Bible Written by ‘Abdu’l-Bahá in Persian - Link - reference.bahai.org/en/t/ab/ABL/abl-1.html

**
“THIS book is the Holy Book of God, of celestial Inspiration. It is the Bible of Salvation, the Noble Gospel. It is the mystery of the Kingdom and its light. It is the Divine Bounty, the sign of the guidance of God”**. Abdu’l-Bahá Abbás.

I enjoy reading the Bible

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[GaryTaylor]

838 "The Church knows that she is joined in many ways to the baptized who are honored by the name of Christian, but do not profess the Catholic faith in its entirety or have not preserved unity or communion under the successor of Peter."322 Those "who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in a certain, (ALTHOUGH IMPERFECT), communion with the Catholic Church."323 With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound "that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord’s Eucharist."324

The Church and non-Christians

839 “Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways.”

Whats the difference between imperfect in 838 and imperfect in 839?

 

[GaryTaylor]

With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound “that it lacks little”

Thus the protestant congregations reach another degree of imperfect. “little more lack”

This is in relation to Baptism/Trinity

Then we have another degree of imperfect in the various religions.

We have Gods Covenants, still another degree of imperfect

Then we have yet another degree of imperfect from here.

Tell me about these degrees of imperfect worship.

How we acknowledge the Creator and worship the Creator is another story to which I injected the unknown.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Further past the sacrament of Baptism is intimately connected to the Eucharist which derives from New Testament accounts of the Last Supper, in which Christ blessed the Apostles’ meal and told them to take it and eat of him. This act countered the blood sacrifice of the Old Testament, and predicted Christ’s own sacrifice on the cross, an event key to Salvation. Further in baptism we reach the supernatural imposed virtue of grace for the remission of sin as is professed in the Creed, from here too we can identify the protestants.

The Covenant’s of the Lord are through Abraham and Moses and both spiritual and intact. In which case so too we can identify the Jews

327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God’s revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews “belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ”,328 "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."329 "

Pope Benedict “Israel is in the hands of God, who will save it ‘as a whole’ at the proper time, when the number of Gentiles is full,” the pope writes. He says that Christians should “wait for the time fixed for this by God” rather than attempting to convert the Jewish people.

While the Pope affirms that salvation only comes through Jesus Christ, he argues that the mission of the Church is primarily to the Gentiles, and cites the belief of St. Bernard that God will bring Jews into the fold at a time “that cannot be anticipated.” Jesus of Nazareth part II.

So as the Pope agrees, we reach a point here unknown. “that cannot be anticipated.” but still somewhat defined.

“The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator” so Islam comes into play. All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth thus Adam and Eve thus the fall and Gods commandments/covenants.

Still on Islam

And also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness.

He created you to exist, you cannot not exist. You can only not cooperate with Gods grace thus his covenants and commandments.

The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as “a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life.” The length of life spoken of is eternal life. Which gets back to the covenants and commandments thus the spiritual law.

In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them: Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.

“Outside the Church there is no salvation”

How we acknowledge the Creator and worship the Creator is another story to which I injected the unknown.

 

[FrDavid96]

With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound “that it lacks little”

Thus the protestant congregations reach another degree of imperfect. “little more lack”

This is in relation to Baptism/Trinity

Then we have another degree of imperfect in the various religions.

We have Gods Covenants, still another degree of imperfect

Then we have yet another degree of imperfect from here.

Tell me about these degrees of imperfect worship.

In a different context, I probably would.

The question posed as the topic of this thread is not about the authenticity of Islam’s worship, or its doctrines, or the way it presents itself to the world (in terms of politics and attitudes of individuals), or even whether or not the Koran was revealed by God (I firmly believe that it was not). It’s a simple “yes or no” question asking if Muslims and Christians worship the same God (together with the reason that prompted the question).

The Church has already answered that question with a clear affirmative.

The questions that you are posing here only become relevant after answering the first question. We cannot proceed to those later questions without having as a foundation a right understanding of the original question.

 

[GaryTaylor]

In a different context, I probably would.

The question posed as the topic of this thread is not about the authenticity of Islam’s worship, or its doctrines, or the way it presents itself to the world (in terms of politics and attitudes of individuals), or even whether or not the Koran was revealed by God (I firmly believe that it was not). It’s a simple “yes or no” question asking if Muslims and Christians worship the same God (together with the reason that prompted the question).

The Church has already answered that question with a clear affirmative.

The questions that you are posing here only become relevant after answering the first question. We cannot proceed to those later questions without having as a foundation a right understanding of the original question.

Actually no, for you see the relevance of the worship indicates how and who they worship. I fail to see how anyone could do more than piously speculate from this point. Did you say you had an infallible statement defining this explicitly about how we worship the same God? Or is this ecumenical pious implicit statement with some elaboration on how this works? I know for sure the no-salvation part is infallible.

Do you want me to leave you alone? Honestly neither you’ll convince me nor I’ll convince you, I think we should pray for each other.

Peace

 

[GaryTaylor]

" for the God who is unknown " among shadows and images

But, there is no salvation outside the Church. in which case are we saying they are all ignorant? Is it me? Or does everyone know this already?

 

[FrDavid96]

Actually no, for you see the relevance of the worship indicates how and who they worship. I fail to see how anyone could do more than piously speculate from this point. Did you say you had an infallible statement defining this explicitly about how we worship the same God? Or is this ecumenical pious implicit statement with some elaboration on how this works? I know for sure the no-salvation part is infallible.

Do you want me to leave you alone? Honestly neither you’ll convince me nor I’ll convince you, I think we should pray for each other.

Peace

What I am presenting here is the teaching of the Catholic Church.

You are arguing that the Church does not know what She is talking about because the Church does not have your insight into this question.

It isn’t just me who is trying to convince you: it is the Catholic Church that is trying to convince you in the Church’s teachings. Not just once, but over and over again in documents that carry the very highest authority.

You are actually arguing that an Ecumenical Council, the Catechism of the Catholic Church and Popes Paul VI, John Paul II, Benedict, and Francis are all in the wrong. Not to mention the Church’s position throughout the centuries that Islam and Christians believe in the same God (albeit in very different ways) And you are doing so because you claim that they don’t understand the Church’s teachings with the same wisdom that you have.

You are saying that the Church does not understand the Church’s teachings, but you do.

 

[GaryTaylor]

What I am presenting here is the teaching of the Catholic Church.

You are arguing that the Church does not know what She is talking about because the Church does not have your insight into this question.

It isn’t just me who is trying to convince you: it is the Catholic Church that is trying to convince you in the Church’s teachings. Not just once, but over and over again in documents that carry the very highest authority.

You are actually arguing that an Ecumenical Council, the Catechism of the Catholic Church and Popes Paul VI, John Paul II, Benedict, and Francis are all in the wrong. Not to mention the Church’s position throughout the centuries that Islam and Christians believe in the same God (albeit in very different ways) And you are doing so because you claim that they don’t understand the Church’s teachings with the same wisdom that you have.

You are saying that the Church does not understand the Church’s teachings, but you do.

Actually no, I’m failing to see any explicit understanding here, did you say you had something infallible on this? I read all that and Pope Benedict and Pope Francis. Little bit of a mess no?

 

[SoMissCatholic]

I’m wondering if the vehement denial by some that Christians and Muslims worship the same God stems from a fear that answering in the affirmative would somehow “legitimize” or concede the truth of the Muslim faith. It does not.

The simple fact is that if you believe in (worship) one god that has existed from eternity, who created the universe and everything in it, and who rules over that creation for all time, then you necessarily worship the One True God. However, this says nothing as to the efficacy of that worship, the truth or falsity of the surrounding theology, doctrines, and dogmas within which that worship is offered, the (in)completeness of the person’s understanding of God, or the ultimate salvation or damnation of the soul offering the worship.

Simply put:

Do I believe that Muslims and Christians worship the same God? Yes

Do I believe that Islam is a false religion? Yes

The two conclusions are not mutually exclusive.

 

[FrDavid96]

Actually no, I’m failing to see any explicit understanding here, did you say you had something infallible on this? I read all that and Pope Benedict and Pope Francis. Little bit of a mess no?

It’s right in front of you. You are merely denying that it is there.

What you are doing now is called “raising the bar.”

Once it’s an established fact that the Church does teach that Islam and Christianity believe in the same God (one that you cannot dispute), now you’re saying that it has to be an infallible teaching.

When a statement is made by an Ecumenical Council, not once, but in two documents, included in the Catechism of the Catholic Church, and re-affirmed by Paul VI, John Paul II, Benedict XVI, and Francis; there is no doubt that it is the teaching of the Church.

 

[GaryTaylor]

No, not for me, I believe it to be a false doctrine, and their god is “unknown” to me. Thus I feel no need to assign any validity to the shadows and images, I’ll keep praying but so far they only confirmed my documented thinking here.

“Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached.”

Pope Benedict XVI offered the above quote, expressed six centuries ago by a Byzantine emperor, Manuel II Paleologus, in dialogue with an Iranian scholar, neither endorsing nor condemning it, in his academic speech,

I understand what Pope Francis said also about this and Pope Benedict in Light of the World. I also understand what Thomas Aquinas stated which is similar to Pope Benedict above. And speculative would sum up the position as the point in question.

I don’t know why I have to affirm anything “we worship the same God” I’m fact after reading early Islam and Mohammed and the Ishmael order, nothing helped either.

Hey, I’m just saying. But there is nothing explicitly infallible here is there? I mean I hate to keep asking.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Dogma and Doctrine

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/alpha/data/aud19930324en.html

“Furthermore, in speaking of the truth to be taught, the Second Vatican Council states: “The Roman Pontiff and the bishops, in view of their office and the importance of the matter, by fitting means diligently strive to inquire properly into that revelation and to give apt expression to its contents” (LG 25). It is a sign of wisdom that finds confirmation in the experience of the procedures followed by the Popes and the offices of the Holy See assisting them in carrying out the duties of the Magisterium and governance of Peter’s successors.”

I don’t see anything definitive as Catholics and muslims worshipping the same God. I don’t see where this is anything more than a rhetorical argument.

 

[FrDavid96]

Dogma and Doctrine

vatican.va/holy_father/john_paul_ii/audiences/alpha/data/aud19930324en.html

“Furthermore, in speaking of the truth to be taught, the Second Vatican Council states: “The Roman Pontiff and the bishops, in view of their office and the importance of the matter, by fitting means diligently strive to inquire properly into that revelation and to give apt expression to its contents” (LG 25). It is a sign of wisdom that finds confirmation in the experience of the procedures followed by the Popes and the offices of the Holy See assisting them in carrying out the duties of the Magisterium and governance of Peter’s successors.”

I don’t see anything definitive as Catholics and muslims worshipping the same God. I don’t see where this is anything more than a rhetorical argument.

1. The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth, who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting.
   vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decl_19651028_nostra-aetate_en.html

 

[GaryTaylor]

I don’t see anything explicit or definitive.about we worship the same God, nor do I see where the encyclical is binding.

traditionalcatholic.net/Tradition/Information/Salvation_Outside.html

Pope Gregory XVI (A.D. 1831 - 1846): “It is not possible to worship God truly except in Her; all who are outside Her will not be saved.” (Encyclical, Summo Jugiter)

The Popes through the centuries have defended the doctrine “outside the Church there is no salvation.”

Pope Pelagius II (A.D. 578 - 590): “Consider the fact that whoever has not been in the peace and unity of the Church cannot have the Lord. …Although given over to flames and fires, they burn, or, thrown to wild beasts, they lay down their lives, there will not be (for them) that crown of faith but the punishment of faithlessness. …Such a one can be slain, he cannot be crowned. …[If] slain outside the Church, he cannot attain the rewards of the Church.” (Denzinger 246-247)

Pope Saint Gregory the Great (A.D. 590 - 604): “Now the holy Church universal proclaims that God cannot be truly worshipped saving within herself, asserting that all they that are without her shall never be saved.” (Moralia)

Pope Innocent III (A.D. 1198 - 1216): “With our hearts we believe and with our lips we confess but one Church, not that of the heretics, but the Holy Roman Catholic and Apostolic Church, outside which we believe that no one is saved.” (Denzinger 423)

Pope Leo XII (A.D. 1823 - 1829): “We profess that there is no salvation outside the Church. …For the Church is the pillar and ground of the truth. With reference to those words Augustine says: `If any man be outside the Church he will be excluded from the number of sons, and will not have God for Father since he has not the Church for mother.’” (Encyclical, Ubi Primum)

Pope Gregory XVI (A.D. 1831 - 1846): “It is not possible to worship God truly except in Her; all who are outside Her will not be saved.” (Encyclical, Summo Jugiter)

Pope Pius IX (A.D. 1846 - 1878): “It must be held by faith that outside the Apostolic Roman Church, no one can be saved; that this is the only ark of salvation; that he who shall not have entered therein will perish in the flood.” (Denzinger 1647)

Pope Leo XIII (A.D. 1878 - 1903): “This is our last lesson to you; receive it, engrave it in your minds, all of you: by God’s commandment salvation is to be found nowhere but in the Church.” (Encyclical, Annum Ingressi Sumus)

“He scatters and gathers not who gathers not with the Church and with Jesus Christ, and all who fight not jointly with Him and with the Church are in very truth contending against God.” (Encyclical, Sapientiae Christianae)

Pope Saint Pius X (A.D. 1903 - 1914): “It is our duty to recall to everyone great and small, as the Holy Pontiff Gregory did in ages past, the absolute necessity which is ours, to have recourse to this Church to effect our eternal salvation.” (Encyclical, Jucunda Sane)

Pope Benedict XV (A.D. 1914 - 1922): “Such is the nature of the Catholic faith that it does not admit of more or less, but must be held as a whole, or as a whole rejected: This is the Catholic faith, which unless a man believe faithfully and firmly, he cannot be saved.” (Encyclical, Ad Beatissimi Apostolorum)

Pope Pius XI (A.D. 1922 - 1939): “The Catholic Church alone is keeping the true worship. This is the font of truth, this is the house of faith, this is the temple of God; if any man enter not here, or if any man go forth from it, he is a stranger to the hope of life and salvation. …Furthermore, in this one Church of Christ, no man can be or remain who does not accept, recognize and obey the authority and supremacy of Peter and his legitimate successors.” (Encyclical, Mortalium Animos)

Pope Pius XII (A.D. 1939 - 1958): “By divine mandate the interpreter and guardian of the Scriptures, and the depository of Sacred Tradition living within her, the Church alone is the entrance to salvation: She alone, by herself, and under the protection and guidance of the Holy Spirit, is the source of truth.” (Allocution to the Gregorian, October 17, 1953)

Then, as though to set this constant teaching of the Fathers, Doctors and Popes “in concrete,” so to speak, we have the following definitions from the Solemn Magisterium of the Church:

Pope Innocent III and Lateran Council IV (A.D. 1215): “One indeed is the universal Church of the faithful outside which no one at all is saved…”

Pope Boniface VIII in his Papal Bull Unam Sanctam (A.D. 1302): “We declare, say, define, and pronounce that it is absolutely necessary for the salvation of every human creature to be subject to the Roman Pontiff.”

Pope Eugene IV and the Council of Florence (A.D. 1438 - 1445): “[The most Holy Roman Church] firmly believes, professes, and proclaims that those not living within the Catholic Church, not only pagans, but also Jews and heretics and schismatics cannot become participants in eternal life, but will depart `into everlasting fire which was prepared for the devil and his angels’ (Matt. 25:41), unless before the end of life the same have been added to the flock; and that the unity of the ecclesiastical body is so strong that only to those remaining in it are the sacraments of the Church of benefit for salvation, and do fastings, almsgiving, and other functions of piety and exercises of Christian service produce eternal reward, and that no one, whatever almsgiving he has practiced, even if he has shed blood for the name of Christ, can be saved, unless he has remained in the bosom and unity of the Catholic Church.”