Do Muslims and Catholics worship the same God?

[FrDavid96]

“Who do you say that I AM?”

Isn’t it something that so many that seem to put “doctrine”, “dogma”, “liturgy”, “fill in the blank” above God have no problem with disregarding the ONE THING that defines Christianity, for the sake, it appears, of appeasement.

“Who do you say that I AM?”

Red herring or not, the god of islam and the God of the bible are not the same, it is that simple.

Wouldn’t calling someone’s opinion that one disagrees with a “red herring”, be a “red herring” in itself?

If the koran came out before the bible or at least before the NT, there could maybe be an “argument” to be made but the koran is a refutation of the bible including both the OT and the NT.

It is reportedly written that God said, “They have eyes but do not see, they have ears but do not hear”.

Would anyone say that God is pointing out a “red herring” here or is just speaking of our (human) ability to put on our “blinders and earplugs” at will at times and that there are other times that we just do not see or hear what is right in front of us?

Good point, Tom.

The question “who do you say that I am?”

Now, this is from Mark 8, so it’s not the “I AM” of John (the ego eimi) of John’s Gospel, it’s a simple “I am.” But it’s a good point. A very good point.

Moses (Exodus 3) wants to know who is talking to him through a burning bush (who wouldn’t?).

God assures Moses of Who He is by telling Moses

“I am the God of your father,* he continued, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.”

That’s how God identifies Himself to Moses, as the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. By identifying Himself this way, God is assuring Moses that He is indeed the One God, the only God.

Now, the God of Abraham is also the God of his son Isaac and his son Jacob, and so on, and so on. Christians know this.

The God of Abraham is also the God of Abraham’s son Ishmael. Ishmael’s sons worshipped the God of their father, and so on through the generations.

The God does not change (by definition, God cannot change). Of course, perspectives about that God do change. As Christians, we have a very different understanding of God than Abraham himself had, or that Moses himself had; yet we all know that we still continue to worship the God of Abraham and Moses.

Now, let’s be careful here. The point is not that since God changes a little over time, we have the same God. No, it’s because God never changes, but our perspective of Him does. Now, sometimes that perspective gets “better” (meaning more accurate, more full, or more has been revealed, especially through Christ). Sometimes that perspective gets worse (misunderstandings, heresies, schisms, etc). But even though the perspective changes, or the worship changes, God Himself never changes.

The God of Abraham is One God. Even through Abraham had 2 sons, Isaac, his hier, and Ishmael, his other son, he still had only One God.

Again, Abraham had One God even though Abraham had 2 sons. In fact, when we read Genesis chapter 16, God actually makes a promise to Hagar that her son Ishmael will have descendants “too numerous to count.” Now, the promise is also a warning (“his hand against everyone”); but the warning does not make a second God appear, nor does it make the One God any different. Ishmael still worships the same God as his father Abraham.

Now, as we go down through the generations, the sons of Ishmael continue to have an understanding of God that always changes (as does every person), but the change in perspective does not mean that the God changes.

Who is the God Who identifies Himself as “I AM”???
Answer: the God of Abraham.

The God of Abraham and all of Abraham’s descendants. no matter whether their understanding of Him evolves or devolves. He is still the One God of Abraham.

The One God worshipped by Jews, Christians, and Moslems.

We can have a discussion about the differences between Jews Christians and Moslems, but that’s a different discussion for a different thread. The answer to the question in this thread is:

Both Catholics and Muslims worship the One God of Abraham, so yes, they do worship the same God, but in different ways.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Red herring.

When you figure out that this is irrelevant–that this is not what we are arguing about–then we can actually get somewhere.

Until then you can’t even muster an argument worth refuting.

Never mind that the Catholic Church today clearly doesn’t teach that all those who don’t embrace the Faith in this life are damned.

Edwin

You came back to add this?

 

[GaryTaylor]

]The God of Abraham is also the God of Abraham’s son Ishmael. Ishmael’s sons worshipped the God of their father, and so on through the generations.

Father Ishmael worshipped many Gods. And the covenant with Isaac has nothing to do with Ismael. In fact I posted it. He was promised a nation. Mohammed did his thing with the sword and the rest is history (to Ismael’s tribe). Genesis and Romans 9. The gods can be googled.

Mohammed venerated the Black Stone at the Kaaba in pre-Islamic pagan times. It was set intact into the Kaaba’s wall by Mohammed. And still they walk around it. Many of them try, if possible, to stop and kiss the Black Stone.

 

[FrDavid96]

The claim has often been made here that no proof has been offered to show that Christians and Moslems worship the same God.

So, let’s look at some (let’s look at it again, to be more accurate).

Now, questions of theology are not like questions of other disciplines, but at times we can use similar methods.

One accepted way to prove a point is to consult experts. This is not to be confused with a fallacious “argument from authority.” An argument from expertise is one based on the knowledge of the leaders of a given field; whereas an argument from authority is one based solely on the fact that the speaker holds a certain office (such as “I am the mayor, and I say so”); an office that might carry its own expertise, but not in the subject matter at hand. So, a medical doctor is an expert in medicine (expertise) but not an expert in engineering. That’s why “I am a surgeon, and I say the bridge is sound” is an argument from authority (fallacy) whereas “I am the State’s Engineer, and I say the bridge is sound” is a perfectly sound argument. It might turn out to be incorrect, but it’s a sound argument nonetheless.

To get us back to the topic at hand. One way to answer the OPs question is to consult the experts. So let’s do so right now:

Catechism of the Catholic Church
841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a9p3.htm

The Second Vatican Council, an Ecumenical Council, which is certainly a gathering of experts in the Catholic faith.

1. The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth,(5) who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting.
   *Nostra Aetate *vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decl_19651028_nostra-aetate_en.html

Pope John Paul II
Quotes from various sources:
Faith in God, professed by the spiritual descendants of Abraham–Christians, Muslims and Jews–when it is lived sincerely, when it penetrates life, is a certain foundation of the dignity…

Dear Muslims, my brothers: I would like to add that we Christians, just like you, seek the basis and model of mercy in God himself, the God to whom your Book gives the very beautiful name of al-Rahman, while the Bible calls him al-Rahum, the Merciful One…

All true holiness comes from God, who is called ‘The Holy One’ in the sacred books of the Jews, Christians, and Muslims. Your holy Qur’an calls God ‘Al-Quddus,…

As Christians and Muslims, we encounter one another in faith in the one God, our Creator and guide, our just and merciful judge…

Christians and Muslims have many things in common, as believers and as human beings. We live in the same world, marked by many signs of hope, but also by multiple signs of anguish. For us, Abraham is a model of faith in God, of submission to his will and of confidence in his goodness. We believe in the same God, the one God, the living God, the God who created the world and brings his creatures to their perfection…

…because it is in him that we believe, you Muslims and we Catholics…

I believe that we, Christians and Muslims, must recognize with joy the religious values that we have in common, and give thanks to God for them. Both of us believe in one God, the only God, who is all justice and all mercy; we believe in the importance of prayer, of fasting, of almsgiving, of repentance and of pardon; we believe that God will be a merciful judge to us all at the end of time, and we hope that after the resurrection He will be satisfied with us and we know that we will be satisfied with him.
“Loyalty demands also that we should recognize and respect our differences. Obviously the most fundamental is the view that we hold onto the person and work of Jesus of Nazareth. You know that, for Christians, Jesus causes them to enter into an intimate knowledge of the mystery of God and into the filial communion by His gifts, so that they recognize Him and proclaim Him Lord and Savior.

The topic of your discussion is a timely one. Since we are believers in God - who is goodness and perfection…(address to the delegation of the World Islamic Call Society)
More than enough material there to make the point
usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/ecumenical-and-interreligious/interreligious/islam/vatican-council-and-papal-statements-on-islam.cfm

So there’s the expert testimony as to the answer to the OPs question.

 

[FrDavid96]

Here is a particularly good source for the Catholic perspective:

John Paul II, Message to the faithful of Islam at the end of the month of Ramadan, April 3, 1991
“To all Muslims throughout the world, I wish to express the readiness of the Catholic Church to work together with you and all the people of good will to aid the victims of the war and to build structures of a lasting peace not only in the Middle East, but everywhere. This cooperation in solidarity towards the most afflicted can form the concrete basis for a sincere, profound and constant dialogue between believing Catholics and believing Muslims, from which there can arise a strengthened mutual knowledge and trust, and the assurance that each one everywhere will be able to profess freely and authentically his or her own faith.

“Injustice, oppression, aggression, greed, failure to forgive, desire for revenge, and unwillingness to enter into dialogue and negotiate: these are merely some of the factors which lead people to depart from the way in which God desires us to live on this planet. We must all learn to recognize these elements in our own lives and societies, and find ways to overcome them. Only when individuals and groups undertake this education for peace can we build a fraternal and united world, freed from war and violence.

“I close my greeting to you with the words of one of my predecessors, Pope Gregory VII who in 1076 wrote to Al-Nasir, the Muslim Ruler of Bijaya, present day Algeria: ‘Almighty God, who wishes that all should be saved and none lost, approves nothing in so much as that after loving Him one should love his fellow man, and that one should not do to others, what one does not want done to oneself. You and we owe this charity to ourselves especially because we believe in and confess one God, admittedly, in a different way, and daily praise and venerate him, the creator of the world and ruler of this world.’

“These words, written almost a thousand years ago, express my feelings to you today as you celebrate ‘Id al-Fitr, the Feast of the Breaking of the Fast. May the Most High God fill us with all His merciful love and peace.”

usccb.org/beliefs-and-teachings/ecumenical-and-interreligious/interreligious/islam/vatican-council-and-papal-statements-on-islam.cfm

 

[josie_L]

Good point, Tom.

The question “who do you say that I am?”

Now, this is from Mark 8, so it’s not the “I AM” of John (the ego eimi) of John’s Gospel, it’s a simple “I am.” But it’s a good point. A very good point.

Moses (Exodus 3) wants to know who is talking to him through a burning bush (who wouldn’t?).

God assures Moses of Who He is by telling Moses

“I am the God of your father,* he continued, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob.”

That’s how God identifies Himself to Moses, as the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. By identifying Himself this way, God is assuring Moses that He is indeed the One God, the only God.

Now, the God of Abraham is also the God of his son Isaac and his son Jacob, and so on, and so on. Christians know this.

The God of Abraham is also the God of Abraham’s son Ishmael. Ishmael’s sons worshipped the God of their father, and so on through the generations.

The God does not change (by definition, God cannot change). Of course, perspectives about that God do change. As Christians, we have a very different understanding of God than Abraham himself had, or that Moses himself had; yet we all know that we still continue to worship the God of Abraham and Moses.

Now, let’s be careful here. The point is not that since God changes a little over time, we have the same God. No, it’s because God never changes, but our perspective of Him does. Now, sometimes that perspective gets “better” (meaning more accurate, more full, or more has been revealed, especially through Christ). Sometimes that perspective gets worse (misunderstandings, heresies, schisms, etc). But even though the perspective changes, or the worship changes, God Himself never changes.

The God of Abraham is One God. Even through Abraham had 2 sons, Isaac, his hier, and Ishmael, his other son, he still had only One God.

Again, Abraham had One God even though Abraham had 2 sons. In fact, when we read Genesis chapter 16, God actually makes a promise to Hagar that her son Ishmael will have descendants “too numerous to count.” Now, the promise is also a warning (“his hand against everyone”); but the warning does not make a second God appear, nor does it make the One God any different. Ishmael still worships the same God as his father Abraham.

Now, as we go down through the generations, the sons of Ishmael continue to have an understanding of God that always changes (as does every person), but the change in perspective does not mean that the God changes.

Who is the God Who identifies Himself as “I AM”???
Answer: the God of Abraham.

The God of Abraham and all of Abraham’s descendants. no matter whether their understanding of Him evolves or devolves. He is still the One God of Abraham.

The One God worshipped by Jews, Christians, and Moslems.

We can have a discussion about the differences between Jews Christians and Moslems, but that’s a different discussion for a different thread. The answer to the question in this thread is:

Both Catholics and Muslims worship the One God of Abraham, so yes, they do worship the same God, but in different ways.

I just want to ask one question, how should we view those individual Muslims who commit acts of violence in the name of Allah (are they still “worshipping” the God of Abraham)?

 

[GaryTaylor]

These experts have another opinion.

4] On the other hand, those who founded sects committed to erroneous doctrines proceeded in a way that is opposite to this, The point is clear in the case of Muhammad. He seduced the people by promises of carnal pleasure to which the concupiscence of the flesh goads us. His teaching also contained precepts that were in conformity with his promises, and he gave free rein to carnal pleasure. In all this, as is not unexpected, he was obeyed by carnal men. As for proofs of the truth of his doctrine, he brought forward only such as could be grasped by the natural ability of anyone with a very modest wisdom. Indeed, the truths that he taught he mingled with many fables and with doctrines of the greatest falsity. He did not bring forth any signs produced in a supernatural way, which alone fittingly gives witness to divine inspiration; for a visible action that can be only divine reveals an invisibly inspired teacher of truth. On the contrary, Muhammad said that he was sent in the power of his arms—which are signs not lacking even to robbers and tyrants. What is more, no wise men, men trained in things divine and human, believed in him from the beginning, Those who believed in him were brutal men and desert wanderers, utterly ignorant of all divine teaching, through whose numbers Muhammad forced others to become his followers by the violence of his arms. Nor do divine pronouncements on the part of preceding prophets offer him any witness. On the contrary, he perverts almost all the testimonies of the Old and New Testaments by making them into fabrications of his own, as can be. seen by anyone who examines his law. It was, therefore, a shrewd decision on his part to forbid his followers to read the Old and New Testaments, lest these books convict him of falsity. It is thus clear that those who place any faith in his words believe foolishly. Thomas Aquinas.

St. Alphonsus - “The Mohammedan Paradise, is only fit for beasts; for filthy sensual pleasure is all the believer has to expect there.” (St. Alphonsus de Liguori, History of Heresies, Vol. 1., ch. vii., art. 1.)

Baltimore Catechism (No. 3) states as follows:

Q. 1148. How do we offer God false worship?

A. We offer God false worship by rejecting the religion He has instituted and following one pleasing to ourselves, with a form of worship He has never authorized, approved or sanctioned.

St. Peter Canisius “Who is to be called a Christian? He who confesses the doctrine of Christ and His Church. Hence, he is truly a Christian thoroughly condemns and detests, the Jewish, Mohammedan, and the heretical cults and sects.” (Catholic Cate-chism, Dillingen, 1560,)

St. Peter Mavimenus -, “We worship the same God, all is well” No! He told them the truth, he put it this way to them “Whoever does not embrace the Catholic Christian religion will be damned, as was your false prophet Mohammed.” (The Roman Martyrology for February 21)

St. Augustine, - letter to St. Jerome “one who observes the rites of Jews, or Gentiles, not only truly, but even fictitiously, has fallen into the abyss of the devil.”

Suarez - “he, who unites himself with those outside the Church in religious worship, communicates in their wicked works.”

(Opera Omnia, Tom. XXIV, p. 708)

Fr. Michael Müller, C.SS.R - “A Mohammedan is taught by his conscience that it would be a crime to believe in Jesus Christ, and not believe in Mahomet; will this impious conscience save him? The Scripture assures us that ‘there is no other name given to men under heaven by which we can be saved,’ but the name of Jesus only; and 'he that believeth not the Son shall not see life, but the wrath of God remaineth on him.”

“All the Gods of the Gentiles are Devils” (Psalm 96:5)

St. Thomas - “Nor can anyone in any way know God who holds a false opinion of Him” (Summa Theologica II - II q. 10, Art. 3)

St. Francis of Assisi - "when reproached by the followers of Koran for preaching against Mohammed, simply responded by saying “We have come to preach faith in Jesus Christ to you, that you will renounce Mohammad, that wicked slave of the devil, and obtain everlasting life like us” (Omer Englebert, 1979, Pg. 178-9)

St. John Vianney - “My friend, there are not two ways of serving Our Lord; there is only one good way, and it is to serve Him as He wishes to be served”. (SPIRIT OF THE CURE D’ARS, Bowden, 1864)

St. Alphonsus - “But the holy monk (St. George of San Saba) having declared that Mahomet was a disciple of the devil, and that his followers were in a state of perdition, he also was condemned (to martyrdom) with his companions.” (Victories of the Martyrs, ch. LIII.)

Blessed Nicholas Tavilich - “You Mohammedans are in a state of everlasting damnation. Your Koran is not God’s law nor is it revealed by Him. Far from being a good thing, your law is utterly evil. It is founded neither in the Old Testament nor in the New. In it are lies, foolish things, buffooneries, contradictions, and much that leads not to virtue and goodness but to evil and to all manner of vice.”

St. John- “If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into the house, or say to him Welcome” - II John 1:10

So much for the “expert” card.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Where are all these souls in Catholic theology who were not Baptised going, reject not only the mysteries, Jesus Christ, but the Holy Spirit too. Venerate the Black Stone and numerous other issues to long to mention. You get heaven and communion of Saints out of that we will rewrite Catholic theology.

 

[benjohnson]

Doing a bit more research, the Lutheran position on Muslims isn’t quite as set as I made out.

I’m not finding any definitive Lutheran position - some of the staunchest Lutherans have seen fit to leave the answer to God.

 

[FrDavid96]

I just want to ask one question, how should we view those individual Muslims who commit acts of violence in the name of Allah (are they still “worshipping” the God of Abraham)?

The answer is this:

The same way that we view those individual Christians who commit acts of violence in the name of Christ.

 

[MickCal]

In a word no.

Muslims claim to worship the God of Abraham but reject the Bible which points to Isaac as Abraham’s chosen son who would eventually bring to the Jews and the World the Messiah.

Muslims claim that Ishmael was God’s chosen descendant of Abraham and have no belief in the Messiah.

Muslims also have no belief in the Trinity and see Christians as pagans.

Muslims are justified by works not by Faith so they don’t believe in Ephesians 2:8
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God—

Remember that the God Jehovah is a jealous God and will have no false gods before him.
If we characterize God falsely then we don’t honor him.

 

[GaryTaylor]

St. John of Damascus’s Critique of Islam “a forerunner to the antichrist”

orthodoxinfo.com/general/stjohn_islam.aspx

 

[FrDavid96]

I just want to ask one question, how should we view those individual Muslims who commit acts of violence in the name of Allah (are they still “worshipping” the God of Abraham)?

We should view them the same way we view Christians who commit acts of bigotry in the name of Christ.

I wonder, are they worshipping the God of Abraham? What do you think?

 

[GaryTaylor]

I wonder, are they worshipping the God of Abraham?

Depends if you want to hear the party line or the truth.

How we view them and treat them and so forth is a very different conversation. In fact I forgive them, I wouldn’t allow their hate to control me in any way for a moment. This is very different than putting the truth up for what it is. I can’t see packaging Islam with a pretty bow and passing it off under the God of Abraham. Thats a suicide bomber path. Look at Boston. be a muslim for the day at BU. Tell me does a day go by slaughter isn’t on the news? No, not one, and now its suggested we should “expect” this. Imagine that. This modern view of Islam, what do you think its accomplishing?

 

[FrDavid96]

Depends if you want to hear the party line or the truth.

How we view them and treat them and so forth is a very different conversation. In fact I forgive them, I wouldn’t allow their hate to control me in any way for a moment. …

Dear Gary,

I’m pleased to read you say that you aren’t letting their hate control you. It’s a good start.

 

[tonyfish58]

I note that the Radical element of a Faith is always taken as the “Norm” when one starts talking about Right and Wrong.

I would bet my Life and Faith that the vast Majority that are Followers of Muhammad wish for a peaceful world as much as a follower of any other religion including Christianity!

IMHO - The first mistake is to Judge a Prophet by anything but His own Person and then next His Writings. The next mistake is to totally reject the status of the people and conditions the message was given for and in.

God Bless all and Regards Tony

 

[GaryTaylor]

Theres just as many corrupt as peaceful and the 41 countries today where they live proves my point. Snow me which country they are the dominant population and Christians are not persecuted.

And its been going on through the years.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mohammad_Amin_al-Husayni

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grand_Mufti_of_Jerusalem

Such an odd and abstract way of viewing this. Does it make a difference how many Good souls lived in Germany during WW-II? Of course not. That’s the relativism chant.

 

[GaryTaylor]

IMHO - The first mistake is to Judge a Prophet by anything but His own Person and then next His Writings

And that’s what the Saints did. Oddly no one seems to pay attention to how the Saints charity proceeded and then what they had to say while the martyrdom was occurring.

Only problem here is the party line is confused with the punch line.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Dear Gary,

I’m pleased to read you say that you aren’t letting their hate control you. It’s a good start.

Right let me redirect you to the point. This is not about me which AGAIN you seem to think by degrading me somehow your position is strengthened. Its not, its the same still.

 

[GaryTaylor]

I wonder, are they worshipping the God of Abraham? What do you think?

You wonder means you do not know. That’s “honest” and a far cry from the party line. What do you think.

or

You asked a question to which you knew the answer? Being polite I won’t elaborate on that.