Do Muslims and Catholics worship the same God?

[GaryTaylor]

Perhaps someone else would enjoy a Quran discussion with you and your opinion on it and its place in Christianity. That’s a different conversation than the one we are having as no-one in the Church would deny its a false doctrine. I agree with the Saints and feel no need to repeat thoughts on the Quran.

Peace

 

[tonyfish58]

Perhaps someone else would enjoy a Quran discussion with you and your opinion on it and its place in Christianity. That’s a different conversation than the one we are having as no-one in the Church would deny its a false doctrine. I agree with the Saints and feel no need to repeat thoughts on the Quran. Peace

Peace be with you as well Gary

May God grant you all Blessings

God Bless and Regards Tony

 

[Tom_Baum]

How does a Word become flesh?

You can ask God when you meet God.

The simple explanation of what it means, as opposed to how it came about, is that God became One of us.

The “how” I would say is definitely beyond us, as I would say the “how” of how God made anything, much less everything, out of absolutely nothing, is beyond us.

I would say that this “Word” Is LOVE, since God Is a Being of Love, which is also beyond our “conception”, as opposed to Love being an attribute of God.

 

[FrDavid96]

Dear Readers,
There is a fallacy known as the red herring.

Go to your favorite search engine and do a search for “red herring fallacy” and you’ll find plenty of explanation and examples.

Simply put, the red herring is a technique to change the subject.

The topic of discussion is about “question A” but the speaker answers “question B” which is related to the original question, but it is very different from the actual question at hand.

When a speaker or writer employs the red herring, the trick is to confuse the issue so much that the writer gives the appearance of answering the original question, when in reality, he is doing no such thing. The other necessary element is prove the red herring itself.

Just for illustration:

Question: What is 2 plus 2?
Red herring answer: Abraham Lincoln.

The red herring then goes on the show all the evidence that Abraham Lincoln was in fact the 16th president. The red herring provides all kinds of convincing evidence to show that Lincoln was #16. Of course, anyone at all could provide a veritable mountain of indisputable evidence that Lincoln was #16—only there’s no way that the user of the red herring can show that the answer actually fits the question.

The user of the red herring is relying upon (and indeed causing) the listeners to become so convinced that Lincoln was #16 that the listeners completely forget that the original question was not: Who was the 16th president? instead the question was: what is 2 plus 2?

Another example:
Someone asks “Is a filbert the same as a hazlenut?”
Someone responds to the question with a red herring “I’m allergic to nuts.”
That’s a pretty obvious example of a red herring.
Does that kind of reasoning sound familiar to anyone reading this thread? I wonder…

Now, let’s get back to the topic at hand.

What I will ask readers here to do is to go back to the topic of the thread. It’s right there, toward the topic of your screen. The topic of the thread is this:

Do Muslims and Catholics worship the same God?

Now, let’s keep the question itself in mind. It’s important that we not change the question.

Let’s then look at the many responses given in this thread.

Now, finally, let’s look at those answers and see if the answers actually fit the question.

Remember, we’re not asking whether or not any particular answer is “accurate” or “true.”

This is critical, because just like the example above, we all know that the statement “Lincoln was the 16th president” is true by itself. There’s no doubt on that—but it simply does not answer the actual question that was posed (what is 2 +2).

You see, dear reader, if you find yourself thinking “gee, it’s not a direct answer but what that poster wrote is actually true” you’re falling for the red herring trick.

Before asking whether or not the answer is true, we must first discern whether or not the answer actually applies to the question.

Finally I’ll ask readers here to do a search for “red herring fallacy” and become familiar with the technique, then come back to this thread and see if you can find any examples of it.

 

[Tom_Baum]

Dear Readers,
There is a fallacy known as the red herring.

Go to your favorite search engine and do a search for “red herring fallacy” and you’ll find plenty of explanation and examples.

Simply put, the red herring is a technique to change the subject.

The topic of discussion is about “question A” but the speaker answers “question B” which is related to the original question, but it is very different from the actual question at hand.

When a speaker or writer employs the red herring, the trick is to confuse the issue so much that the writer gives the appearance of answering the original question, when in reality, he is doing no such thing. The other necessary element is prove the red herring itself.

Just for illustration:

Question: What is 2 plus 2?
Red herring answer: Abraham Lincoln.

The red herring then goes on the show all the evidence that Abraham Lincoln was in fact the 16th president. The red herring provides all kinds of convincing evidence to show that Lincoln was #16. Of course, anyone at all could provide a veritable mountain of indisputable evidence that Lincoln was #16—only there’s no way that the user of the red herring can show that the answer actually fits the question.

The user of the red herring is relying upon (and indeed causing) the listeners to become so convinced that Lincoln was #16 that the listeners completely forget that the original question was not: Who was the 16th president? instead the question was: what is 2 plus 2?

Another example:
Someone asks “Is a filbert the same as a hazlenut?”
Someone responds to the question with a red herring “I’m allergic to nuts.”
That’s a pretty obvious example of a red herring.
Does that kind of reasoning sound familiar to anyone reading this thread? I wonder…

Now, let’s get back to the topic at hand.

What I will ask readers here to do is to go back to the topic of the thread. It’s right there, toward the topic of your screen. The topic of the thread is this:

Do Muslims and Catholics worship the same God?

Now, let’s keep the question itself in mind. It’s important that we not change the question.

Let’s then look at the many responses given in this thread.

Now, finally, let’s look at those answers and see if the answers actually fit the question.

Remember, we’re not asking whether or not any particular answer is “accurate” or “true.”

This is critical, because just like the example above, we all know that the statement “Lincoln was the 16th president” is true by itself. There’s no doubt on that—but it simply does not answer the actual question that was posed (what is 2 +2).

You see, dear reader, if you find yourself thinking “gee, it’s not a direct answer but what that poster wrote is actually true” you’re falling for the red herring trick.

Before asking whether or not the answer is true, we must first discern whether or not the answer actually applies to the question.

Finally I’ll ask readers here to do a search for “red herring fallacy” and become familiar with the technique, then come back to this thread and see if you can find any examples of it.

OK

The question: Do Muslims and Catholics worship the same God?

My answer: No.

No “red herring fallacy” involved in this answer, is It?

 

[benjohnson]

Doing a bit of research, here’s the Lutheran answer:

Jews: Yes. They worship God imperfectly. Lutherans hold that “The prophetic and apostolic Scriptures of the Old and New Testaments as the pure, clear fountain of Israel.” and as much as Jews share in this they worship God.

Muslims: No. Basically because have heard God’s revelation of Christ, and yet they deny the creeds (especially the Athanasian) and raise up the Prophet Mohammed above Jesus Christ.

The Lutheran standpoint is that Muslims that having heard the Gospel and rejected it in word and deed in such strong and decisive measures that they are outside the catholic faith.

We must pray to God on their behalf, for God to grant them mercy - that people born under the foot of Mohammed are often compelled to worship in such a fashion against their will.
…

EDIT: I certainly understand the ‘universalist’ appeal of all of us worshiping the same God - and I have private hopes and prayers that this is the case. But this isn’t what the our church teaches, and I accept it.

In addition, I’s my opinion is that we don’t proclaim the Gospel when we deny the truth of God. The Athanasian creed sets that minimum for those that have ears.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Red herring?

The conclusion must be true if the premises are true, that’s your red herring with a fallacious argument. Which proceeds as such

A] There is one God.

B] Three religions worship one God.

c} They all worship the same God the God of Abraham.

In case you haven’t been following number three IS NOT PROVEN…, Its an “assumption” If this argument cannot be proven then who proposed the red herring?

I suggest instead of talking past each other the red herring be addressed. I see no answer here on this thread. Tom made the point clear again. We don’t agree with “C”

Note; ample evidence has been supplied to refute #3. NONE has been provided in return.

Repeat…NONE!

 

[dronald]

Red herring?

The conclusion must be true if the premises are true, that’s your red herring with a fallacious argument. Which proceeds as such

A] There is one God.

B] Three religions worship one God.

c} They all worship the same God the God of Abraham.

In case you haven’t been following number three IS NOT PROVEN…, Its an “assumption” If this argument cannot be proven then who proposed the red herring?

I suggest instead of talking past each other the red herring be addressed. I see no answer here on this thread. Tom made the point clear again. We don’t agree with “C”

Note; ample evidence has been supplied to refute #3. NONE has been provided in return.

Repeat…NONE!

What are the qualities one must possess in order to be able to say one worships the same God of Abraham? Do I simply state I believe God is One and I believe He spoke to Abraham?

 

[GaryTaylor]

What are the qualities one must possess in order to be able to say one worships the same God of Abraham? Do I simply state I believe God is One and I believe He spoke to Abraham?

First you’d have to reconcile all the arguments proposed on this thread. Its not a matter of “saying” anything, that’s how we arrived at this point; “they profess”. Its a matter of “proving” Christians and Muslims worship the same God. A few points are posted in clear disagreement. None exist otherwise to counter but in suggestive conversation.

 

[Contarini]

Red herring?

The conclusion must be true if the premises are true, that’s your red herring with a fallacious argument. Which proceeds as such

A] There is one God.

B] Three religions worship one God.

c} They all worship the same God the God of Abraham.

In case you haven’t been following number three IS NOT PROVEN…, Its an “assumption” If this argument cannot be proven then who proposed the red herring?

I suggest instead of talking past each other the red herring be addressed. I see no answer here on this thread. Tom made the point clear again. We don’t agree with “C”

Note; ample evidence has been supplied to refute #3. NONE has been provided in return.

Repeat…NONE!

What would this evidence be? It’s been a lot of red herrings, just as FrDavid said. People have talked about everything they dislike about Islam, but haven’t addressed the relevant issues.

For instance, people say “Muslims changed a lot of things in the Biblical stories.” Red herring.

“Muslims persecute Christians.” Red herring.

In fact, your obsession with Abraham is a red herring too. It’s more justifiable, because the “God of Abraham” rhetoric is often used by people stressing the similarities among the three religions, and certainly the fact that all three religions claim spiritual descent from Abraham is relevant. But the argument is not “Muslims claim to worship the God of Abraham, therefore they worship the true God.” The argument is “Muslims worship the One God and not a lesser deity, therefore they worship the true God.” The fact that they worship the One God with a number of specifics derived from Abraham and the Judeo-Christian tradition certainly strengthens the case. But the basic case is that all monotheists worship the true God.

And that has not been refuted. It’s self-evident once you understand what the term “monotheism” means.

Edwin

 

[dzheremi]

What are the qualities one must possess in order to be able to say one worships the same God of Abraham? Do I simply state I believe God is One and I believe He spoke to Abraham?

Though I won’t be participating, a good discussion could possibly be had concerning 1 John 2:23 “Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.” Perhaps it would be easier to ask whether or not Muslims really have the Son.

In the Arabic language, there are distinct names for various Biblical persons that tend to break down along confessional lines, such that there is a “Christian Arabic” version of Jesus (Yasu’ يسوع), and a “Muslim Arabic” version of Jesus ('Isa عيسى). Now it’s not quite that simple in the modern day (I have known Christians, Arabs and non, named 'Isa), but it generally still holds true, in that while Christians who originate from Muslim-dominated areas and have experienced a lot of Islamic influence over their language (e.g., Pakistan, Bangladesh, etc.) may be named ‘Isa, you’d be hard pressed to find any Muslim anywhere named Yesu’ in reference to Jesus (they would all be named 'Isa instead, as that is the “Islamic Jesus”; this actually might also go a ways toward explaining how even Arab Christians came to named ‘Isa, as the name Yesu’ has usually or completely been kept for Jesus alone, though I have seen Coptic, not Arab, monks receive the name in Hebrew, Yashua, upon their ordinations…).

Now, I know that you guys are not stupid, and you know that the names of things are not the things themselves, but there is a certain amount of conceptual distance at the outset when you have one group that is unwilling to adopt the preexisting term or name and instead invents their own for their own ‘version’ of the same referent (and it has long been recognized, e.g. Jeffrey 1938, that the form ‘Isa does not predate the Qur’an, while Yesu’ does). The Islamic Jesus is of course not the only begotten Son of God that we know as Jesus/Yesu’, but a prophet of secondary rank to Muhammad. While the Islamic Jesus shares some attributes or history in common with the actual Jesus (e.g., he was born of a virgin, he is word of God – in Arabic kalimatullah – though Muslims obviously have a different understanding of what that means than we do), it has been proven that much of the narrative involving him in the Qur’an and related Islamic literature is cribbed from apocryphal Christian sources or distorted and manipulated Gospel accounts, e.g., the story of 'Isa speaking from the crib (Surah) comes from the apocryphal Arabic Infancy Gospel (modeled on the earlier Syriac Infancy Gospel) which was particularly in Arabia in Muhammad’s time. It is changed in the Qur’an in order to fit the role that Islam has created for Jesus, as a prophet of God who essentially teaches Islamic theology.

From the Arabic Infancy Gospel of the Savior, 5th-6th century (verse 2):

“He has said that Jesus spoke, and, indeed, when He was lying in His cradle said to Mary His mother: I am Jesus, the Son of God, the Logos, whom thou hast brought forth, as the Angel Gabriel announced to thee; and my Father has sent me for the salvation of the world.”

From the Qur’an, 7th century (Sura 19, verses 29-34):

"But she pointed to the babe. They said: “How can we talk to one who is a child in the cradle?” He said: “I am indeed a servant of Allah: He hath given me revelation and made me a prophet; And He hath made me blessed wheresoever I be, and hath enjoined on me Prayer and Charity as long as I live; (He) hath made me kind to my mother, and not overbearing or miserable; So peace is on me the day I was born, the day that I die, and the day that I shall be raised up to life (again)”! Such (was) Jesus the son of Mary: (it is) a statement of truth, about which they (vainly) dispute.

I would say that Islam of course does not have the Son, as it has very consciously recast Him as something other than the only begotten Son of God, in a subordinate role to the Islamic prophet Muhammad, and essentially a buttress of Islamic theological and prophetical claims. But, of course, others may differ. Still, it is, I believe, and important aspect to consider when thinking about the question of what exactly is the relation of Islam to Christianity, and vice-versa.

 

[Contarini]

Also the argument of the Jews, Christians and Islam is understood in further reading above. Which is my point of the post. Now you see the proper perspective of one God, the God of Abraham.

I find it rather disturbing to reduce this to the elementary logic of one God of which takes a hundred posts to unwrap.

In other words, you like your red herrings and you’re sticking to them.

Nothing you have said or cited in this post is relevant to the actual question.

We are not arguing over whether Islam is a true revelation, or whether Muslims can be saved, or anything of the sort. Those are all red herrings. You’re proving Fr. David’s point very nicely.

Edwin

 

[GaryTaylor]

In other words, you like your red herrings and you’re sticking to them.

Nothing you have said or cited in this post is relevant to the actual question.

We are not arguing over whether Islam is a true revelation, or whether Muslims can be saved, or anything of the sort. Those are all red herrings. You’re proving Fr. David’s point very nicely.

Edwin

Apparently you have nothing to add?

I don’t know what in the world your talking about Edwin. Your talking cryptic.

 

[Contarini]

Apparently you have nothing to add?

I have plenty to add, when I have time. Meanwhile, have fun with your red herrings.

Edwin

 

[GaryTaylor]

I have plenty to add, when I have time. Meanwhile, have fun with your red herrings.

Edwin

Good, just get to the argument instead of the false accusations you seem to favor.

The Saints.

 

[GaryTaylor]

What would this evidence be? It’s been a lot of red herrings, just as FrDavid said. People have talked about everything they dislike about Islam, but haven’t addressed the relevant issues.

Non Sequitur

For instance, people say “Muslims changed a lot of things in the Biblical stories.” Red herring.

Non Sequitur

“Muslims persecute Christians.” Red herring.

Non Sequitur

In fact, your obsession with Abraham is a red herring too.

Non Sequitur

" It’s more justifiable, because the “God of Abraham” rhetoric is often used by people stressing the similarities among the three religions,

Modern nonsense which doesn’t appear in history. Oh but wait, you know this professor?

" and certainly the fact that all three religions claim spiritual descent from Abraham is relevant.

Getting closer to the argument.

" But the argument is not “Muslims claim to worship the God of Abraham, therefore they worship the true God.” The argument is “Muslims worship the One God and not a lesser deity, therefore they worship the true God.”

Nice try, “Do Muslims and Catholics worship the same God?” And the answer is no. Clearly addressed.

" The fact that they worship the One God with a number of specifics derived from Abraham and the Judeo-Christian tradition certainly strengthens the case. But the basic case is that all monotheists worship the true God.

No the basic case is Muslims “profess to worship the God of Abraham”. I disagree. Thus your last sentence is Non Sequitur.

And that has not been refuted. It’s self-evident once you understand what the term “monotheism” means.

Its self evident there is no response but this circular path you think will resolve the above response. Namely, “But the basic case is that all monotheists worship the true God.”

The basic case is “Do Muslims and Catholics worship the same God?” And the answer remains NO! And according to provided data.

 

[Tom_Baum]

“Who do you say that I AM?”

Isn’t it something that so many that seem to put “doctrine”, “dogma”, “liturgy”, “fill in the blank” above God have no problem with disregarding the ONE THING that defines Christianity, for the sake, it appears, of appeasement.

“Who do you say that I AM?”

Red herring or not, the god of islam and the God of the bible are not the same, it is that simple.

Wouldn’t calling someone’s opinion that one disagrees with a “red herring”, be a “red herring” in itself?

If the koran came out before the bible or at least before the NT, there could maybe be an “argument” to be made but the koran is a refutation of the bible including both the OT and the NT.

It is reportedly written that God said, “They have eyes but do not see, they have ears but do not hear”.

Would anyone say that God is pointing out a “red herring” here or is just speaking of our (human) ability to put on our “blinders and earplugs” at will at times and that there are other times that we just do not see or hear what is right in front of us?

 

[GaryTaylor]

St. Peter Mavimenus -, “We worship the same God, all is well” No! He told them the truth, he put it this way to them “Whoever does not embrace the Catholic Christian religion will be damned, as was your false prophet Mohammed.” (The Roman Martyrology for February 21)

For deductive reasoning to be sound, the original hypothesis or generalization also must be correct. A logical deduction can be made from any “generalization”, even if it is “not true”. If the generalization is wrong, though, the specific conclusion can be logical and valid but still can be incorrect. Such is the case “Do Catholics and Muslims worship the same God”

The answer remains no, and according to the Saints. There have been no response’s to this. Above you see nothing but frustration and accusations due the inability to address what is in fact a red herring.

No-one will claim Islamophobia for the Saints. Thus the folly of that accusation. And no, mathematic equations are not proof of the proclaimed point, sad to say, though they do attempt to inject them into the debate to boister the point through a continued false premise.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deductive_reasoning

 

[Contarini]

St. Peter Mavimenus -, “We worship the same God, all is well” No! He told them the truth, he put it this way to them “Whoever does not embrace the Catholic Christian religion will be damned, as was your false prophet Mohammed.” (The Roman Martyrology for February 21)

Red herring.

When you figure out that this is irrelevant–that this is not what we are arguing about–then we can actually get somewhere.

Until then you can’t even muster an argument worth refuting.

Never mind that the Catholic Church today clearly doesn’t teach that all those who don’t embrace the Faith in this life are damned.

Edwin

 

[josie_L]

**This is the thread that doesn’t end, yes it goes on and on, my friend, somebody started debating it not knowing what it was, and they began debating it forever, just because . . . . . . this is the thread that doesn’t end, yes it goes on and on **. . . . . . . . .

P.S If the Muslims (as a group) are not worshipping the one God (who they recognize is the God of Abraham), who are they worshipping?