Do Muslims and Catholics worship the same God?

[FrDavid96]

Thank you for that. I can see the difference you are making.

Do you think much these same accusations were made by the Jews as to the Christ and the New Testament?

This is a both-yes-and-no.

On the one hand, many in Judaism (most but not all) were indeed expecting a Messiah, so the idea that the Messiah came is not in conflict with earlier revelation, but rather fulfills it; so the first answer is “no”. Entire books have been written on this, so it’s too lengthy to post, but a good start is to simply look at the Old Testament readings used at the Easter Vigil, and readings from the Prophets that we use in Advent.

On the other hand, the Messiah turned out to be other-than what some were expecting, so the answer “yes” also applies.

With regard to Islam, the message of Mohammed outright contradicts the revelation of Christianity and that of Judaism. That conflict goes all the way back (chronologically) to Abraham because Islam sees the favor of God passing through Abraham’s son Ishmael by his servant Haggai.

I could add comments about God Preparing the Way from Mankind, but will leave it with the question, why do you think that God stopped preparing the way?
God Bless and Regards Tony

He didn’t “stop preparing the way” because that implies that He left it unfinished; rather He completed or fulfilled the way. He gave mankind everything that we need for salvation, and now it is up to individuals to accept that gift.

Let’s get back to the original question of the thread here. The OP was asking for some explanation, and that question was prompted by reading something from a source that tries to “prove” that Islam is false because of a contradiction within the Koran. Now, we can always find individual sentences that contradict each other within any religion’s sacred writings if we look hard enough, especially if we really want those conflicts to be there. But we have to make a distinction between these minor conflicts (single verses taken out of context) and the larger perspective of the religion.

Here’s the problem with the source that the OP is asking about. That type of writing starts with a false premise (a major one), that the writing IS the god (regardless of which religion). It starts with the premise that “the Bible IS God.” Now, I don’t mean the individual book sitting on a desk, but I mean the Bible in the abstract. The next step is to assume that because they think that the Bible IS the God of the Christians, then it’s necessary to assume that the Koran IS the God of Islam. From there, it’s pretty simple: just prove the Koran to be inconsistent, and that “proves” that the God of Islam does not exist. Only it doesn’t work that way. We have to keep in mind that authors like that are writing to a target audience: one that already accepts the false premise that “the book is the god.”

Now, when I say that they think of the Bible as being God, that’s literally true for only the rare extremist. However, many fundamentalists come so close to believing that the Bible is God that the distinction becomes almost indiscernible.

 

[Contarini]

Ah, didn’t know I was a marcionite who denies the Old testament.

I know you don’t intend to be, but your position has Marcionite implications, unless you are going to side with dzheremi (Hi dzheremi!) and say that Old Testament believers did believe in the Trinity. Which has no connection to historical reality at all.

In any case you are mistaken, i do not accept the marcionite heresy and absolutely reject it. The God of the old testament has revealed himself in stages to the world, he did it first through Abraham then finally through his son.

Exactly. Muslims and Jews accept an “earlier stage.” Therefore, it makes no sense to say that they worship a different god.

Before the trinity was formally defined there was no fault on those who did not publically profess it because God had yet to reveal himself in his son.

Fault isn’t the question here. You can say that Muslims are at fault for holding to an “earlier stage,” but that doesn’t change the fact that they believe in the same God. (Of course, it makes no sense to say that a person who has been brought up Muslim and is Muslim in good conscience is personally “at fault,” but that’s a separate issue.)

To deny the son is to deny the father and the spirit and this is exactly what muslims do along with the jews and the UNitarians. I unlike the Catholic will let the muslims have their ideas, their God is not Jesus and I accept that. They curse and condemn any who say Jesus is God and the cause of salvation, I accept that. They say we should not be idolators in worshipping a man, I accept that. I will not accept that they who deny Jesus, who explicietely tell me he is not God, who are quite clear about this and are unrepentent in it as worshipping the true God.

If you refuse to follow through on the logical implications of orthodox Christian teaching, that’s your problem. But the implications are clear. You can’t say that people who believe everything about God that Old Testament patriarchs believed worship a different God from them, just because further revelation has come in the meantime.

If they say they believe in the father but do not believe in Jesus they are tearing God asunder and dividing God and that is impossible, God is one substance of divinity and to worship one person of the trinity is to acknowledge all three as equal and eternal.

Right. But that doesn’t change the fact that they believe the same things that Old Testament Jews believed, in essentials. You can’t get around this.

Their understanding is not imperfect, it is absolute blasphemy and a denial of God.

But then so was the belief of people in the Old Testament–if we are talking about the objective content of the belief. If we are just talking about the fault involved in denying what has been revealed, that’s a totally separate issue.

If you want to maintain your God is the same as the Muslim’s God then go ahead but I will have nothing to do with it. Also before anyone says; “then you have to accept the jews as not worshipping the true God as well!” That should be obvious.

Well, at least you’re consistent. Now maybe you can explain to me how a person (say a first-century Jew) can believe in the true God one minute and a false god the next, without the content of his/her beliefs changing at all.

It makes absolutely no sense. But your position seems to require you to believe this.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

Don’t get too hurt, IgnatianPhilo. Edwin’s go-to insult is to call people Marcionites if they don’t submit to his classical reasoning of “if A, then B”. Yawn. Get some new material, Edwin. You tried that one out on me years ago, and for much the same reason (and with much the same result).

Why should I get new material, since no one has given good answers to the same old arguments?

This is something I’ve encountered before on this forum, and it always puzzles me–the idea that maintaining the same position consistently over years is somehow discreditable. I haven’t convinced you, because you refuse to be convinced. I can’t help that. I’m writing this for undecided people reading this discussion.

You guys are working off prejudice, not reason. Your disparaging remarks about “classical reasoning” show this. You’re blatantly embracing irrationalism in the name of faith.

Edwin

 

[Presurmksdimnds]

We believe that God is tripersonal, and that Muslims believe that God is unipersonal. But there is also a Quranic text that seems problematic if you believe that we worship the same God, and that’s Surah 3:54.
When translated correctly

, it says that Allah is the greatest of deceivers; this means that he is even more of a deceiver than Satan himself. Isn’t this whole thing kind of problematic?

I don’t think so. I don’t mean to be rude I just speak very bluntly.

Everytime an angel appeared to a prophet they came with a message of peace, like when Gabriel appeared to Mary he told her to not be alarmed…

Well when the “angel” appeared to Mohammed he squeezed him, to the point of pain, and Mohammed admitted to his wife he was terrified and unsure that it even was an angel.

It’s inconsistent with all other accounts of angels transmitting messages to prophets. Do they THINK they are worshipping God? Sure. Is the God revealed to them by this angel anything like Jesus has revealed Him to be? Hardly.

Besides, Jesus said “it is finished”.

 

[dzheremi]

Why should I get new material, since no one has given good answers to the same old arguments?

This is something I’ve encountered before on this forum, and it always puzzles me–the idea that maintaining the same position consistently over years is somehow discreditable. I haven’t convinced you, because you refuse to be convinced. I can’t help that. I’m writing this for undecided people reading this discussion.

You guys are working off prejudice, not reason. Your disparaging remarks about “classical reasoning” show this. You’re blatantly embracing irrationalism in the name of faith.

Edwin

“All of scripture teems with disproof of Jewish unbelief.” – St. Athanasius the Apostolic, On the Incarnation

How’s that for irrationality? It is not possible to worship the true God outside of Christianity, within the confines of any non-Christian religion. If you don’t like that, take it up with the Church Fathers.

 

[betsybug354]

Exactly. Muslims and Jews accept an “earlier stage.” Therefore, it makes no sense to say that they worship a different god.

It’s not quite accurate to state that Muslims accept an “earlier stage.” I say this is for a couple of reasons: First, they reject the notion of original sin and the conclusions that naturally flow from that (such as, we need a Savior). Second, many of the stories taken from the Old Testament that appear in the Qur’an have the obvious purpose of attempting to show that Mohammed is the apostle of Allah and that the Biblical prophets were actually Muslims. Consider the story of Abraham, for example - the Quranic story has Abraham smashing idols (see Sura 21), a precursor to Mohammed who did the same thing in the Kaaba. Given the lack of historical context of the Qur’an, it’s hard for me to call it anything other than a long, confusing, disjointed poem.

Having said all that, however, even though the Allah of the Qur’an doesn’t like to be called “heavenly Father” and doesn’t have a Son, that certainly doesn’t mean that Muslims of good will aren’t earnestly seeking the true God of the universe. And you know what the Bible says - if you seek Him with all your heart, you will find Him.

 

[GaryTaylor]

I just want to know how is theirs the faith of Abraham if it is not a faith in the same Messiah of Abraham. Are they awaiting the messiah? Of course not they gave that honor to Mohammed a mere man. Think about that.

Do they believe in a monotheistic God? Of course but so did Constantine. And didn’t he do the same as Mohammed? Of course he did.

 

[Contarini]

It’s not quite accurate to state that Muslims accept an “earlier stage.” I say this is for a couple of reasons: First, they reject the notion of original sin and the conclusions that naturally flow from that (such as, we need a Savior).

No one in the Old Testament had heard of original sin.

Second, many of the stories taken from the Old Testament that appear in the Qur’an have the obvious purpose of attempting to show that Mohammed is the apostle of Allah and that the Biblical prophets were actually Muslims. Consider the story of Abraham, for example - the Quranic story has Abraham smashing idols (see Sura 21), a precursor to Mohammed who did the same thing in the Kaaba. Given the lack of historical context of the Qur’an, it’s hard for me to call it anything other than a long, confusing, disjointed poem.

That has nothing to do with the point at issue. The story about Abraham smashing the idols is a Jewish legend taken up by Muslims (like the Christian legend of the Seven Sleepers, which made it into the Qur’an). If anything, this proves continuity.

I was talking specifically about the concept of God, for the excellent reason that that’s a point under debate. My point is that on all the essential points where the Christian and Muslim views of God differ, the Muslim view is closer to that of the OT than the Christian view is. That’s why it makes no sense to say that Muslims worship a false God because their view of God differs on some points from that of Christians, unless of course you’re willing to bite the Marcionite bullet.

Having said all that, however, even though the Allah of the Qur’an doesn’t like to be called “heavenly Father”

Where is this stated? That is to say, does the Qur’an somewhere explicitly say that for believers to call God “Father” is wrong? It may–I certainly know that this isn’t a form of address Muslims use (I found a Shi’ite website once that had taken a Christian poem about prayer and adapted it for Muslim use by having God say “my servant” where the original had Him say, “My child”). But I can’t recall such a passage (as distinct, of course, from denials that God “has a Son”).

and doesn’t have a Son, that certainly doesn’t mean that Muslims of good will aren’t earnestly seeking the true God of the universe. And you know what the Bible says - if you seek Him with all your heart, you will find Him.

Indeed.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

I just want to know how is theirs the faith of Abraham if it is not a faith in the same Messiah of Abraham.

I have no doubt that Abraham looked for a Messiah in an implicit and spiritual sense (i.e., he knew that this strange god whom he followed promised to deliver him and be faithful to his descendants and that this was tied up with the promise of offspring). But in terms of explicit theological beliefs, there is no likelihood at all that Abraham believed anything that Christians believe and Muslims don’t. At least I can’t think of any such tenet. Also, contra both Jewish legend and Islamic teaching, Abraham does not seem to have been a monotheist. Nothing in Scripture indicates that he was, and historically it’s extremely implausible that he would have been. God revealed Himself to Abraham as his personal god. He knew a lot less truth about God than Muslims do.

Are they awaiting the messiah? Of course not they gave that honor to Mohammed a mere man. Think about that.

There’s nothing to think about, except, to be frank, your ignorance of Islamic teaching. Muslims refer to Jesus, not Muhammad, as the Messiah. Muslims, like Jews (including, as far as we can tell, pre-Christian Jews), think that the Messiah is a mere man, to be sure.

Do they believe in a monotheistic God? Of course but so did Constantine. And didn’t he do the same as Mohammed? Of course he did.

You’ve lost me. Are you suggesting that Constantine didn’t worship the true God?

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

“All of scripture teems with disproof of Jewish unbelief.” – St. Athanasius the Apostolic, On the Incarnation

How’s that for irrationality?

Yes, it’s pretty irrational, given that the quote has nothing to say about whether the God Jews worship is the true God.

You have done this before: you seem to think that any quote from the Fathers criticizing Jews or Muslims makes your point. It doesn’t.

The Fathers not only recognized that Jews worship the true God (and that Muslims, when they showed up, did so too), but that pagans were referring to the true God when they talked about the supreme Deity who was above and beyond the gods. This is evident from Acts 17 in Scripture, and from the writings of any of the early apologists.

You do not have the Fathers with you on this one.

It is not possible to worship the true God outside of Christianity, within the confines of any non-Christian religion. If you don’t like that, take it up with the Church Fathers.

Now that is Marcionite. Unless you’re going to say that pre-Christian Judaism was Christian. (Which, to be fair, you probably are.)

Edwin

 

[GaryTaylor]

God revealed Himself to Abraham as his personal god. He knew a lot less truth about God than Muslims do.

You conclude this how? And further it only confirms the point that they profess to hold the faith of Abraham means nothing more than as I said, a monotheistic god. And according to your words.

Muslims refer to Jesus, not Muhammad, as the Messiah. Muslims, like Jews (including, as far as we can tell, pre-Christian Jews), think that the Messiah is a mere man, to be sure.

Jesus was the last prophet sent by God to guide the people of Israel. Jesus is seen in Islam as a precursor to Muhammad, and is believed by Muslims to have foretold the latter’s coming. So I believe your point tied to linguistics is rather misleading.

You’ve lost me. Are you suggesting that Constantine didn’t worship the true God?

No he believed in a monotheistic god and just as imperfectly as Mohammed before he converted and in fact did much the same as Mohammed in attempting to convolute various beliefs.

 

[FrDavid96]

“All of scripture teems with disproof of Jewish unbelief.” – St. Athanasius the Apostolic, On the Incarnation

…

What does that sentence mean? How do you read it?

 

[Contarini]

You conclude this how?

From the Biblical texts and the cultural context. Where on earth do you see monotheism in the Abraham story?

And further it only confirms the point that they profess to hold the faith of Abraham means nothing more than as I said, a monotheistic god. And according to your words.

I don’t know what you mean by this. Muslims think that Abraham was a monotheist, but they also claim (dubiously) a direct link with Abraham. The point, again, is that we have less in common with Abraham than we do with Muslims in terms of what we believe about God.

Furthermore, there is no such thing as “a monotheistic god.” That’s nonsense. In monotheism there is just God.

The worship of one god, as distinct from the One God, is monolatry or henotheism. Probably what Abraham practiced, but not monotheism. You can’t be a monotheist and worship a false god. The two things are intrinsically opposed to each other.

Jesus was the last prophet sent by God to guide the people of Israel. Jesus is seen in Islam as a precursor to Muhammad, and is believed by Muslims to have foretold the latter’s coming. So I believe your point tied to linguistics is rather misleading.

Your point was downright inaccurate. I don’t know what you think is misleading. Muslims regard the Messiah as someone sent to the Jews. You’re the one who picked the term “Messiah,” and you were wrong. Instead of admitting this honestly, you accuse me, bizarrely, of being misleading for correcting your error.

Of course Muslims don’t mean by “Messiah” what we do. But neither do Jews. . . . The three religions all mean quite different things by the term.

No he believed in a monotheistic god and just as imperfectly as Mohammed before he converted

When did he convert? Are you talking about the Milvian Bridge?

and in fact did much the same as Mohammed in attempting to convolute various beliefs.

I wouldn’t describe Muhammad’s activities that way–he no doubt did create a certain degree of syncretism, but that doesn’t seem to have been his intention.

However, that’s not the point. The point, again, is that monotheists by definition worship the true God.

Edwin

 

[GaryTaylor]

2 Corinthians 11:4- For if some one comes and preaches another Jesus than the one we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or if you accept a different gospel from the one you accepted, you submit to it readily enough

Edwin your talking “another Jesus” and “another god” be it monotheistic. I’ll concede that stone.

Mentioned above by another “seek Him with all your heart, you will find Him” Constantine did, Mohammed had other ideas. Does that mean followers of Islam do not and cannot seek God and find him? Of course not.

But did they find him? Not according to the typology of Catholic bible exegesis. You have a radically different understanding of a monotheistic god.

“plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Mohammedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind.” CCC

The plan of salvation is Jesus Christ and the Good News of His public revelation. Islam doesn’t profess this, they profess a monotheistic god and imperfectly tie this to Abraham as I stated earlier.

 

[Contarini]

2 Corinthians 11:4- For if some one comes and preaches another Jesus than the one we preached, or if you receive a different spirit from the one you received, or if you accept a different gospel from the one you accepted, you submit to it readily enough

Edwin your talking “another Jesus” and “another god” be it monotheistic. I’ll concede that stone.

Another Jesus and “another god” are two different things. Muslims do indeed have “another Jesus,” in the sense that their beliefs about Jesus are radically wrong.

But they don’t have another god. The phrase “another monotheistic god” is self-contradictory.

Mentioned above by another “seek Him with all your heart, you will find Him” Constantine did, Mohammed had other ideas.

I don’t see how you know for sure that he wasn’t seeking God with all his heart, given the light he had. His knowledge of the Gospel seems to have been extremely garbled. It seems to me that we just don’t know.

Does that mean followers of Islam do not and cannot seek God and find him? Of course not.

Good.

But did they find him? Not according to the typology of Catholic bible exegesis.

What does that have to do with it?

You have a radically different understanding of a monotheistic god.

My understanding is that of the Fathers–that of St. Paul, who told even pagans that when they spoke of one supreme God they were speaking of the true God (Acts 17, where he quotes a pagan poet talking about God and is obviously implying that this is the true God). And obviously that of Lumen Gentium and the Catechism.

“plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Mohammedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind.” CCC

The plan of salvation is Jesus Christ and the Good News of His public revelation. Islam doesn’t profess this, they profess a monotheistic god and imperfectly tie this to Abraham as I stated earlier.

So you’re disagreeing with the Catechism?

Edwin

 

[FrDavid96]

…
“plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator. In the first place amongst these there are the Mohammedans, who, professing to hold the faith of Abraham, along with us adore the one and merciful God, who on the last day will judge mankind.” CCC

The plan of salvation is Jesus Christ and the Good News of His public revelation. Islam doesn’t profess this, they profess a monotheistic god and imperfectly tie this to Abraham as I stated earlier.

Gary,

Do you realize what you just posted?

You quoted the Catechism of the Catholic Church which states that the God of Christianity and the God of Islam is “the one and merciful God.” In other words, the same God, not 2 different ones, but the same.

 

[gabriel33]

Pax Christi

My english is bad. sorry
I am ex-muslim. I am Catholic now.
Muslims do not believe in Christ(God)
Christians believe in Christ(God)
Muslims and Catholics do not worship the same God

God bless you

 

[dzheremi]

Yes, it’s pretty irrational, given that the quote has nothing to say about whether the God Jews worship is the true God.

They disbelieve in the true God, Jesus Christ, and His resurrection and divinity, so, yes, yes it does. St. Athanasius was certainly not the relativist many modern Christians would like him to be.

You have done this before: you seem to think that any quote from the Fathers criticizing Jews or Muslims makes your point. It doesn’t.

Consider the context in which the quote is invoked: You are trying to say that the view that non-Christians, particularly Muslims, do not worship God is wrong because in doing so we supposedly say that the Jews are not worshiping God either, and that’s wrong for some reason. But our fathers, apparently not yours, have no trouble talking about Jewish unbelief (not just “imperfect understanding”, though that too could be said), and neither do we, whether regarding the Jews or the Muslims.

The Fathers not only recognized that Jews worship the true God (and that Muslims, when they showed up, did so too)

So says you according to your reading of the Fathers, as you have fallen for the popular monotheism advanced by numerous churches within Western Christianity. Lord have mercy.

but that pagans were referring to the true God when they talked about the supreme Deity who was above and beyond the gods. This is evident from Acts 17 in Scripture, and from the writings of any of the early apologists.

Maybe this is the problem – you don’t seem to understand the difference between referring to the true God and actually worshiping Him, or the difference between what some group of deceived people claims is the true God and what we can actually say about God, according to the scriptures and the Fathers (i.e., what is actually true). This is what is so fun about the Vatican’s line in the CCC: By saying that the Muslims “claim to hold” the faith of Abraham, no Christian has to affirm or deny that they actually do. To the contrary, however, as I am not under the Vatican myself I have no trouble saying that they don’t, as again my fathers had no trouble saying that they don’t. You and I have been over this before, however, and I believe our last go around ended with you saying something outlandishly stupid about how the anti-Christ may in fact worship the true God (after I pointed out that the Doctrina Jacobi of 634 says that Muhammad is the anti-Christ), so I will leave you to your similar drivel.

You do not have the Fathers with you on this one.

The day I trust a theological relativist of the kumbaya school of just-barely-Christianity to tell me what the Fathers mean is the day I convert to Islam myself; after all, it’s all the same God, right? (har har har)

Now that is Marcionite. Unless you’re going to say that pre-Christian Judaism was Christian. (Which, to be fair, you probably are.)

Anddddd we’ve come full circle: Once again, everyone who disagrees with Edwin is a Marcionite. I am truly honored that you would have such a low opinion of me.

To recap: Edwin’s idea is apparently that anyone who calls upon the Lord in any capacity is therefore a worshiper of the true God, no matter what they consider that to mean (even if it involves denying everything that we know about God because** God taught it to us Himself, from His own mouth**). It rests upon mathematics, essentially, because hey, there can only be one God in the first place, right? And there’s *certainly nothing in the Bible about people who worshiped something they called “God”, but were in fact wrong. * So nobody is ever wrong, we’re all just touching different parts of the same elephant, as the hoary old analogy goes.

http://cache.wists.com/thumbnails/f/da/fdaa1ad8cbd5aa012cbab746a5d0965d-orig
Pictured: Edwin’s god…and maybe your god, too?

Meanwhile, in Christianity, there is one God only, and that God is Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, revealed to our Fathers in the uncreated and undivided Holy Trinity, and if you do not worship that one God, you are not worshiping God, but at least in some sense a god of your own making. While of course this does mean that every other religion is 100% wrong in everything or that it is impossible to come to know God to some degree through false religions (in fact, the opposite is true, since no religion is wrong on every point and what correct points there are must indeed point to the one true God, cf. Justin Martyr 100-165 AD and the spermatikos Logos, ‘the seed of the Word’ found in other religious philosophies), it is incorrect, and indeed a reproach to the name of Christ, to say that others, who remain faithful Muslims or faithful Jews or faithful whatevers, are by virtue of their normative practices within their own religions are somehow worshiping the true God.

 

[FrDavid96]

Posters here are still confusing 2 questions.

What do Moslems believe about God?

is not the same question as

In what God do Moslems believe?

 

[dzheremi]

Pax Christi

My english is bad. sorry
I am ex-muslim. I am Catholic now.
Muslims do not believe in Christ(God)
Christians believe in Christ(God)
Muslims and Catholics do not worship the same God

God bless you

God bless you, Gabriel, and may He enlighten you and comfort your throughout your life.

Does it impress other people in this thread that the actual Muslims like drac16 (whose posts seem to have been removed from the thread…?) and the ex-Muslims like this fellow are the ones who honestly state that, no, Muslims and Christians do not worship the same God? It is obvious to those who have been in Islam or Islam and Christianity that their deities are fundamentally not the same. They’re not the same God.