Do Muslims and Catholics worship the same God?

[Contarini]

Gets back to Catholic typology in understanding the Bible not sola scripture reading, a point I already made? . Is you point the Jews worship imperfectly, or God is the greatest deceiver? Or God only deceived the Jews and Islam?

Actually, my point in quoting those passages is simply that the language occurs. We have ways of interpreting it, of course. So do Muslims. It’s cheeky and insulting for us to tell Muslims how to interpret their own Scriptures, when we have plenty of “hard sayings” in ours.

Edwin

 

[Contarini]

If Muslims and Christians worship the same God, then why are Muslims here so quick to say otherwise?

One Muslim has said otherwise. My experience with Muslims is exactly the reverse. I’ve talked to very conservative Muslims who were baffled by why any Christians would deny that we all worship the same God.

Edwin

 

[GaryTaylor]

If it’s not the same God it’s another God. I don’t see any other alternative. Do you?

Could be the serpent as I mentioned, I wouldn’t leave that out of the equation. Strictly speaking it may be some form of deity as such. I don’t know. But the one God theory we have to admit is a Christian perspective? And one Islam doesn’t restrict itself to.

Jesus is a specific person among other people. If you worship a “Jesus” who isn’t a real human being, for instance (as many early groups claiming to be Christian did), then you’ve taken away an essential characteristic of Jesus and your “Jesus” isn’t the real Jesus anymore. The same argument could be made for the Islamic Jesus who is just human and not divine, of course.

That was my point, but the different Jesus can be anything including another deity.

We know Jesus through specific, historic revelation.

Final answer? .

But the Catholic Church teaches that people can know God by reason. You don’t need revelation to have some knowledge of the true God. Hence, the two cases are radically different.

You can’t know a thing without Gods grace, what happened in Islam?

Possibly. Paul himself says that he did it “out of ignorance.”.

I agree but that ignorance resolved itself by Gods grace. And Paul never killed another soul, very much on the contrary. My point still stands, what happened to Mohammed? Still in ignorance thus no divine revelation.

Clearly whatever knowledge of God Muhammad had, whether through reason or through garbled contact with Jews and Christians or through some kind of special revelation, was much less perfect than the knowledge Paul received. (Although there have been plenty of Christians who have killed infidels and heretics or at least been involved in prosecuting them and defending their killing, including saints like St. Thomas More and St. Thomas Aquinas and St. Louis).

Clearly, personally I think his revelation was his lack of comprehension in the desert with the Jews and Christians. Could have been demonic I would rule that out either.

But they don’t worship a god. God is not a god. The two terms are completely different, although God first revealed Himself as a god because the people to whom He was revealing Himself didn’t yet have a concept of God, just of gods.

Like Mohammed a god not God. God is the Father son and Holy spirit is The one and only. And not the same God as the jews all self admitted by Islam. I do believe we should respect them and not impose other thinking on them.

Muslims recognize this and do not worship any god. They only worship God.

But God is the Father son and Holy spirit is The one and only according to your definition of God and god. So they worship god by your own definition.

This is true of all monotheists, by definition. If you don’t get this, you don’t get what monotheism means. As St. Thomas says, God is by definition only One, because God is the source of everything. You can’t have two of Him. And anyone who gets that is speaking of the true God when they use the word “God.”

Oh I get what it means just fine. But I see your back to forcing a Christian perspective on it. And one Islam does not accept.

You quoted it yourself: “together with us they adore the one, merciful God.”

This?

People profess many things. “The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day.”

The plan of salvation is none other that Jesus Christ and the Good News of his public revelation. All of which Mohammed rejected.

Whatever it is they profess, its not that. :

 

[GaryTaylor]

Actually, my point in quoting those passages is simply that the language occurs. We have ways of interpreting it, of course. So do Muslims. It’s cheeky and insulting for us to tell Muslims how to interpret their own Scriptures, when we have plenty of “hard sayings” in ours.

Edwin

The point still stands in Catholic typology this attribute of God doesn’t exist. In Islam today it certainly does. And appears to be a reality to boot.

How does one find God without humility and love? Its impossible, while its true God chose “some” who did not seek Him. Its not true all will find God not seeking him or seeking him in any manner one deems fit. Thus, other than love and humility.

I don’t see how.

 

[GaryTaylor]

thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/aquinas-on-islam.html

This is whats referred to with Thomas Aquinas.

“On the other hand, those who founded sects committed to erroneous doctrines proceeded in a way that is opposite to this, The point is clear in the case of Muhammad. He seduced the people by promises of carnal pleasure to which the concupiscence of the flesh goads us. His teaching also contained precepts that were in conformity with his promises, and he gave free rein to carnal pleasure. In all this, as is not unexpected, he was obeyed by carnal men. As for proofs of the truth of his doctrine, he brought forward only such as could be grasped by the natural ability of anyone with a very modest wisdom. Indeed, the truths that he taught he mingled with many fables and with doctrines of the greatest falsity. He did not bring forth any signs produced in a supernatural way, which alone fittingly gives witness to divine inspiration; for a visible action that can be only divine reveals an invisibly inspired teacher of truth. On the contrary, Muhammad said that he was sent in the power of his arms—which are signs not lacking even to robbers and tyrants. What is more, no wise men, men trained in things divine and human, believed in him from the beginning, Those who believed in him were brutal men and desert wanderers, utterly ignorant of all divine teaching, through whose numbers Muhammad forced others to become his followers by the violence of his arms. Nor do divine pronouncements on the part of preceding prophets offer him any witness. On the contrary, he perverts almost all the testimonies of the Old and New Testaments by making them into fabrications of his own, as can be. seen by anyone who examines his law. It was, therefore, a shrewd decision on his part to forbid his followers to read the Old and New Testaments, lest these books convict him of falsity. It is thus clear that those who place any faith in his words believe foolishly.”

How do you get humility and love out of this? Further one God without doubt would be this Saints teaching. I guess that’s why the following chapter after 841-non Christians is there is no salvation out side the church.

What salvation does Islam have with this same God they profess to worship with us? You can’t serve two masters.

 

[GaryTaylor]

I would argue that when Hindus speak of Brahman–ultimate divine reality–they are speaking of the true God, yes.

Whether they are worshiping the true God when they worship “Vishnu” or “Shiva” as names for the ultimate divinity is trickier.

And the farther down the ladder you get, as it were, in Hinduism, the farther away from the worship of the true God you get, until you get the worship of various “impure gods” which is obviously idolatrous.

But insofar as they are monotheists they worship the true God–the question would be whether Wikipedia is right in calling Vaishnavas and Shaivas monotheistic.

Sikhs certainly worship the true God. I am as certain of that as I am that I do.

Have you ever attended a Sikh worship service or read any of the Sikh Scriptures? I don’t see how you can read the writings of Kabir or Nanak and doubt that they were speaking of the true God.

Edwin

I think this pretty much sums up where we are at. But your absolutely right from a strict Catholic/Christian perspective we have to admit …one God. And from there imperfect worship and understanding of God, is also true, from there as indeed these faiths believe in sin and some form of reprobate, then too the understanding of the evil one becomes of definition, in which Christians or orthodoxy more specifically understands as a fallen angel,created, as we all acknowledged one uncreated God. Its professed. So when we say “they” whoever this may be and believes in another “god”, we don’t believe in no other God. So tell me where’s that leave us with the conversation?

I didn’t go into attribute for any other reason but Fathers point earlier. Needless to say it can’t be overlooked.

This also comes back to first parents and Abrahams understanding, which I believe is one God. But I understand the proposal of the flip side of this.

 

[Contarini]

The point still stands in Catholic typology this attribute of God doesn’t exist. In Islam today it certainly does. .

Wait a minute: I thought it was pretty well established earlier in this thread that Muslims reject the view that Allah is actually a “deceiver” and typically translate it as something like “planner.”

I thought the argument was that even though Muslims try to explain it away, the Qur’an says clearly that God has an evil attribute. I’m pointing out that the same language is used of God in the OT.

If we’re talking about how Muslims interpret and apply that passage, then you need to point to Islamic scholarship that supports your interpretation (and it would help if you would flesh out more clearly what your interpretation is).

Edwin

 

[GaryTaylor]

Wait a minute: I thought it was pretty well established earlier in this thread that Muslims reject the view that Allah is actually a “deceiver” and typically translate it as something like “planner.”

I thought the argument was that even though Muslims try to explain it away, the Qur’an says clearly that God has an evil attribute. I’m pointing out that the same language is used of God in the OT.

If we’re talking about how Muslims interpret and apply that passage, then you need to point to Islamic scholarship that supports your interpretation (and it would help if you would flesh out more clearly what your interpretation is).

Edwin

Its no secret they are the sole interpreters of their holy book as we are or ours?

Exactly, and its ignored because it strengthens your point by adding the Jews which we can’t separate. This admittedly is a favorable point in dialogue, good point.

 

[Gloria_de_G]

thecatholicthing.org/columns/2012/aquinas-on-islam.html

This is whats referred to with Thomas Aquinas.

“On the other hand, those who founded sects committed to erroneous doctrines proceeded in a way that is opposite to this, The point is clear in the case of Muhammad. He seduced the people by promises of carnal pleasure to which the concupiscence of the flesh goads us. His teaching also contained precepts that were in conformity with his promises, and he gave free rein to carnal pleasure. In all this, as is not unexpected, he was obeyed by carnal men. As for proofs of the truth of his doctrine, he brought forward only such as could be grasped by the natural ability of anyone with a very modest wisdom. Indeed, the truths that he taught he mingled with many fables and with doctrines of the greatest falsity. He did not bring forth any signs produced in a supernatural way, which alone fittingly gives witness to divine inspiration; for a visible action that can be only divine reveals an invisibly inspired teacher of truth. On the contrary, Muhammad said that he was sent in the power of his arms—which are signs not lacking even to robbers and tyrants. What is more, no wise men, men trained in things divine and human, believed in him from the beginning, Those who believed in him were brutal men and desert wanderers, utterly ignorant of all divine teaching, through whose numbers Muhammad forced others to become his followers by the violence of his arms. Nor do divine pronouncements on the part of preceding prophets offer him any witness. On the contrary, he perverts almost all the testimonies of the Old and New Testaments by making them into fabrications of his own, as can be. seen by anyone who examines his law.** It was, therefore, a shrewd decision on his part to forbid his followers to read the Old and New Testaments, lest these books convict him of falsity**. It is thus clear that those who place any faith in his words believe foolishly.”

Sorry that I took the liberty to stress points in your post.

I really think that Saint Thomas Aquinas gave us the answer in all these: What to think and expect of the followers of Islam. Or I miss understood ?
Many thanks for your post

Gloria

.

 

[meltzerboy]

One Muslim has said otherwise. My experience with Muslims is exactly the reverse. I’ve talked to very conservative Muslims who were baffled by why any Christians would deny that we all worship the same God.

Edwin

Further, why should we assume Muslims (or Jews) understand that the Trinity does not deny the existence of one G-d when many Christians don’t fully understand this?

 

[FrDavid96]

And how do you separate the two in order to agree with them in one but not in the other, Father?

It’s quite simple, but you’re not seeing it because you insist on saying that that there are 2 different Gods, because you insist on confusing the two questions.

**If one person believes that George Washing chopped down the cherry tree, and another person believes that George Washington never chopped down any cherry tree, does that mean that there were 2 different George Washingtons? ** Of course not, that would be absurd (quite literally, it would be fallacious). What it does mean is that one person is correct about the tree, another is misinformed–they cannot both be right. The same reasoning that confuses the questions of who? and about? is likewise absurd when applied to the question at hand.

As a Christian, I believe in “The God of Abraham” and everything that that same God did through salvation history, including the Incarnation and the Church (I could go on for days typing, but that’s pointless).

Moslems likewise believe in “The God of Abraham” but much of what they believe about that God was not revealed, but composed by Mohammed from various sources (some revealed, some not). What they believe about the God of Abraham is incorrect, but that does not mean that they believe in a different God.

That does not mean that there are 2 Gods, nor that one God is true and the other is a false god (meaning of course, that he doesn’t even exist).

 

[Tom_Baum]

FrDavid96

In one post you wrote, “The answer to your question (the one in the title, at least) is that yes, Muslims and Catholics do worship the same God, because we all worship the God Who revealed Himself to Abraham. Our differences are not in what God we worship, but in what we believe about that one God.”

In another post you wrote, "Islam denies the divinity of Jesus Christ (regarding Him as only a prophet, albeit the greatest one). That’s a huge difference and a huge conflict.

Islam does not regard what we Christian see as salvation history through the Old Testament. To a Christian, the Exodus, and the entire history of the descendants of Abraham (through Isaac) is the pre-figuring of the Christian Church (the parting of the waters prefigured baptism, mana in the desert prefigured Eucharist, Joseph in the Old Testament prefigured Joseph in the New Testament etc. etc.). This history is not accidental or incidental; instead, it is God preparing His people for the Christ. While Islam accepts certain elements of this history (like Moses as a prophet), their understanding of it is extremely different than the Jewish and Christian understanding. There’s just too much here to put it all in one post."

How can you possibly say that it is the same God when the most basic “Truth” concerning Christianity is that God became One of us in the Incarnation plus what you bring up concerning the, to put it mildly, total twistation of things leading up to the Incarnation?

As I have said before, Christianity flows from Judaism and islam flows from neither Judaism nor Christianity.

The god of the koran and the God of the bible are NOT the same.

You also wrote, “First of all, I cannot answer the question because of the way it was phrased “to who it was revealed” Since I do not believe that the Koran was revealed at all.”

I happen to believe that the koran was revealed but I do NOT believe that it was revealed by God.

These “discrepancies” are NOT by any stretch, minor.

Basically, these discrepancies mean that either the bible or the koran could be true, they could both be false but they can NOT both be true.

As I said, the god of islam and the God of the bible are NOT One and the same.

 

[FrDavid96]

FrDavid96

In one post you wrote, “The answer to your question (the one in the title, at least) is that yes, Muslims and Catholics do worship the same God, because we all worship the God Who revealed Himself to Abraham. Our differences are not in what God we worship, but in what we believe about that one God.”

In another post you wrote, "Islam denies the divinity of Jesus Christ (regarding Him as only a prophet, albeit the greatest one). That’s a huge difference and a huge conflict.

Islam does not regard what we Christian see as salvation history through the Old Testament. To a Christian, the Exodus, and the entire history of the descendants of Abraham (through Isaac) is the pre-figuring of the Christian Church (the parting of the waters prefigured baptism, mana in the desert prefigured Eucharist, Joseph in the Old Testament prefigured Joseph in the New Testament etc. etc.). This history is not accidental or incidental; instead, it is God preparing His people for the Christ. While Islam accepts certain elements of this history (like Moses as a prophet), their understanding of it is extremely different than the Jewish and Christian understanding. There’s just too much here to put it all in one post."

How can you possibly say that it is the same God when the most basic “Truth” concerning Christianity is that God became One of us in the Incarnation plus what you bring up concerning the, to put it mildly, total twistation of things leading up to the Incarnation?

As I have said before, Christianity flows from Judaism and islam flows from neither Judaism nor Christianity.

The god of the koran and the God of the bible are NOT the same.

You also wrote, “First of all, I cannot answer the question because of the way it was phrased “to who it was revealed” Since I do not believe that the Koran was revealed at all.”

I happen to believe that the koran was revealed but I do NOT believe that it was revealed by God.

These “discrepancies” are NOT by any stretch, minor.

Basically, these discrepancies mean that either the bible or the koran could be true, they could both be false but they can NOT both be true.

As I said, the god of islam and the God of the bible are NOT One and the same.

You are confusing the two questions.

You are trying to prove that Christians and Muslims believe different things about God. That’s pointless because it’s already a given. Proving that we have different beliefs does not prove that we have different Gods.

We believe different things about God, but we believe in the same God—the God of Abraham.

We’ve already seen the quote from the Catholic Catechism that states the Christians and Moslems believe in the same God. I can only try to explain it.

However, I cannot explain it if you refuse to understand the simple truth that there are 2 different questions:

1. What God?
2. What about that God?

 

[betsybug354]

1. What God?
2. What about that God?

My problem is that the Abraham of the Bible doesn’t very closely resemble the Ibrahim of the Qur’an. The Ibrahim of the Qur’an smashes his father’s idols, builds the Kaaba with Ishmael, and marries Hagar the Egyptian princess. So are you still sure that the God of Abraham is the God of Ibrahim?

 

[Contarini]

How can you possibly say that it is the same God when the most basic “Truth” concerning Christianity is that God became One of us in the Incarnation

Because God was known prior to the Incarnation, although of course not in the way God may be known after the Incarnation. Jesus revealed the same God people had been talking about before that, not a new God that no one had known before. (People get tired of me saying this and accuse me of insulting them, but the idea that Jesus revealed a wholly new God is the heresy of Marcionism. And if you don’t believe that, then you can’t say that either ignorance or denial of the Incarnation means that a person doesn’t worship the true God.)

plus what you bring up concerning the, to put it mildly, total twistation of things leading up to the Incarnation?

Jews think we twist the OT too. . .

As I have said before, Christianity flows from Judaism and islam flows from neither Judaism nor Christianity.

Your having said it before doesn’t make it true. Historically, Islam clearly owes a lot to both Judaism and Christianity, though often Muslims will deny it because they think it’s a revelation straight from God.

I happen to believe that the koran was revealed but I do NOT believe that it was revealed by God.

Why? What makes you think that it isn’t just a human document? Why do you and other people jump so quickly to a supernatural explanation? Does it just feel good to call other religions demonic? When all the evidence can be explained perfectly well by natural means, why introduce a gratuitous supernatural explanation?

As I said, the god of islam and the God of the bible are NOT One and the same.

Non sequitur. You’re assuming, gratuitously, that some kind of supernatural being inspired the Qur’an.

Edwin

 

[FrDavid96]

My problem is that the Abraham of the Bible doesn’t very closely resemble the Ibrahim of the Qur’an. The Ibrahim of the Qur’an smashes his father’s idols, builds the Kaaba with Ishmael, and marries Hagar the Egyptian princess. So are you still sure that the God of Abraham is the God of Ibrahim?

Yes. Yes. Yes. I am absolutely certain.

You don’t get it…people can believe different things about God but that doesn’t mean that they believe in a different God.

You can give “example” all day long of things that the Moslems believe that we Christians do not believe. No matter how many examples you give, it’s not going to change the fact that Christians and Moslems both believe in the same God–the God of Abraham.

Using different spellings for the names does not prove anything, either. It only proves that you’re willing to resort to fallacious arguments.

It’s also not going to change the fact that you are confusing two questions.
In which God do we believe?
and …
What do we believe about God?
are two different questions.

Among people who actually know what they’re talking about this very question is considered silly–it’s pointless. In fact, quite the contrary, the fact that we believe in the same God is one of the most fundamental starting-points in Christian-Moslem dialogue. Read any Catholic Church document that talks about Islam in any substantive way (and no, I’m not talking about something like Pope Urban’s call for the Crusades or any such thing), and you’ll find several references to the fact that we both worship the same God. Again, among people who know what they’re talking about, this is an absolute given.

Here is just one example from Vatican II Nostra Aetate
3. The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the one God, living and subsisting in Himself; merciful and all- powerful, the Creator of heaven and earth,(5) who has spoken to men; they take pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes pleasure in linking itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin Mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition, they await the day of judgment when God will render their deserts to all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving and fasting.
vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decl_19651028_nostra-aetate_en.html

The Catholic bishops, assembled in Ecumenical Council would hardly make a mistake by saying that Christians and Moslems worship the same God. They knew what they were talking about, and the idea that they would misunderstand such a simple fact is beyond comprehension.

 

[Contarini]

But the one God theory we have to admit is a Christian perspective? And one Islam doesn’t restrict itself to.

I don’t know what you mean by this. Again, in my experience Muslims generally say that we worship the same God. Clearly not all do, as the recent Muslim poster here shows, not to mention the attempt in Malaysia to ban Christians from calling God “Allah.”

Final answer? .

I have no idea what you mean. I do wish you would stop trying to be cutesy and cryptic or whatever you are trying to do. It’s probably just your way of expressing yourself, and mine is unclear as well at times, I know. But it comes across as very demeaning and insulting. (I know that this is true of my way of expressing myself sometimes too, and I try to work on that)

You can’t know a thing without Gods grace, what happened in Islam?

You appear to be endorsing the “divine illumination theory” which was common before the time of Aquinas. I have a soft spot for it too. But Vatican I clearly endorsed Aquinas’ view that God can be known by natural reason.

Of course it depends on what you mean by grace. We can’t even exist except by God sustaining us. But insofar as there’s a theological distinction between nature and grace, the Church seems to have come down pretty clearly on the side of Aquinas’ view that we can know things, and even God [not a personal knowledge but a knowledge that God exists and has certain attributes] by natural reason.

I agree but that ignorance resolved itself by Gods grace. And Paul never killed another soul, very much on the contrary. My point still stands, what happened to Mohammed? Still in ignorance thus no divine revelation.

I don’t know where you think I’m arguing that Muhammad experienced divine revelation. If he did, he clearly understood it badly in a number of ways I’m certainly not arguing the point. I think the Qur’an is perfectly explicable as the work of a very remarkable, poetic intellect under the influence of garbled versions of Judaism and Christianity.

Could have been demonic I would rule that out either.

I don’t rule out demonic deception either, although I’m uncomfortable with the category of “demonic revelation” (I tend to think that demons can’t “reveal,” exactly, but can only distort what God is revealing). Nor do I think that it’s a good habit to jump to demonic explanations of other people’s beliefs. It doesn’t foster habits of charity and justice, and from a purely rational point of view it violates Occam’s razor.

Like Mohammed a god not God. God is the Father son and Holy spirit is The one and only. And not the same God as the jews all self admitted by Islam. I do believe we should respect them and not impose other thinking on them.

Where do you find any educated or official Islamic voices saying that they worship a different God from either Jews or Christians? Historically, it seems to me that Muslims have quite clearly affirmed that they do. Clearly there are exceptions these days, but I would put that down to the rise of modern fundamentalism. Again, as I said before some pretty conservative Muslims I encountered in Fort Wayne, who left no doubt that they thought we would go to hell if we didn’t become Muslim, were clear that they believed we all worship the same God. I think this is by far the majority position among Muslims.

But God is the Father son and Holy spirit is The one and only according to your definition of God and god. So they worship god by your own definition.

No. They don’t worship a god (“God” without an article refers to the one God). They worship God, just as people did before the coming of Jesus. I don’t see why this is so hard to get across.

Oh I get what it means just fine. But I see your back to forcing a Christian perspective on it. And one Islam does not accept.

I’m not “forcing”–I view things from a Christian perspective, naturally. But the fact that in my experience (except for the one poster on this forum and the reports I’ve heard from Malaysia) Muslims pretty clearly think they worship the same God we do certainly confirms my commitment to this position. If Muslims did consistently say that we worship a different God, it wouldn’t change my position, but it would make me less zealous in contesting the issue.

Muslims misunderstand the Trinity pretty badly (though as meltzerboy just pointed out, many Christians do too!), and in my experience seem to think that Allah is equivalent to God the Father, and that we err by “associating” two other beings with Allah.

People profess many things.

That’s not the part on which my argument rests. It’s the phrase “together with us they adore the one, merciful God.” I think that’s pretty clear, especially the “together with us.”

The plan of salvation is none other that Jesus Christ and the Good News of his public revelation. All of which Mohammed rejected.

Whatever it is they profess, its not that. :

Right. But it embraces them anyway, according to Church teaching!

Edwin

 

[betsybug354]

You don’t get it…people can believe different things about God but that doesn’t mean that they believe in a different God.

Oh believe me, I get it. I’ve gotten it for the past 27 years in my marriage to a practicing Sunni Muslim. (He will tell you he doesn’t worship my God, by the way.) I believe wholeheartedly that he is sincerely worshiping the Creator of the universe in his way, even though he misunderstands God’s nature and does not have the fulness of God’s revelation to humanity. This is much more than a mere Internet discussion where I am concerned.

Using different spellings for the names does not prove anything, either. It only proves that you’re willing to resort to fallacious arguments.

I use different spellings because the names are pronounced differently according to what faith background you come from. And what did I state that was fallacious?

The Catholic bishops, assembled in Ecumenical Council would hardly make a mistake by saying that Christians and Moslems worship the same God. They knew what they were talking about, and the idea that they would misunderstand such a simple fact is beyond comprehension.

Oh, I think the bishops knew exactly what they were doing. Their language is obviously very carefully worded to not offend and to focus on common ground. I commend them for that. But the fact is, the Qur’an describes a different Christ who cannot save. So then what is the point of finding common ground? Evangelism of the lost, I would hope.

That is all; I’m done with this discussion.

 

[GaryTaylor]

You appear to be endorsing the “divine illumination theory” which was common before the time of Aquinas. I have a soft spot for it too. But Vatican I clearly endorsed Aquinas’ view that God can be known by natural reason.

God’s existence is evident through reason which we know through faith, thus the two are intimately connected. So its faith and reason which I believe the Church rejects faith alone. I believe that’s the correct perspective.

Where do you find any educated or official Islamic voices saying that they worship a different God from either Jews or Christians?

First of all Edwin “Christian perspective” is "exactly " what it is. If this was some Universal Knowledge as you suggest one God would be taught universally. Albert Einstein comes to mind among many others. So from here you can see a “Christian perspective” And then through this sequence we have various view of the “first cause” Next there is not Universal agreement on this or one God. Atheism is specifically the position that there are no deities. And so forth. Cause and Effect leaves us with a logical conclusion there is a first cause we call God. Far from the fact even from here is the God of Abraham, and so forth.

Your argument rests on the understanding you are right according the philosophical theological understanding which in the article I linked this is a point of strained dialogue in particular with Islam.

As far as an educated Islamic arguing a “we all believe in the same God theory” I would actually suggest it would be rather “stupid” on their part to do so since it wouldn’t help their social political
“plotting” to impose their radical false Doctrines which enslaves souls. Be rather foolish just as it would have been rather foolish for Christian Bishops not to take advantage of Emperors and Kings who promoted there position. It looks a gift horse in the mouth.

The doctrines are the issue which no one talks about in the West since they are busy promoting a “hypothesis” ?

First the burden of proof is there is One God.

Edwin that’s how the sequence goes. See everyone doesn’t march to the tune of Thomas Aquinas and Duns Scotus work on the existence of God.

This Quran, and doctrines where in the world does anyone get the idea, dogma from the Quran should be raised to any level of established fact?

 

[GaryTaylor]

Follow Edwin, the idea Islam scholars promote the God of Abraham theory seems to be a favored position, yet the theological/philosophical conversations with Islam in this regard is still a topic fought with intolerance. We proceed on the path which is believed to be correct in hopes this understood theological philosophy bears fruit in truth, because “we” believe it to be the truth. And through Faith and Reason.