Do Muslims and Catholics worship the same God?

[Katie_Kilbane]

It is not helpful to use the Quran to support your views on a Catholic forum, Katie. We reject the Quran and do not believe it proclaims the inspired Word of God.

Similarly, I would not use the Bible to support Christian views if I were on an atheist forum; nor would I use Sacred Tradition to support Catholic views if I were on a fundamentalist Christian forum.

It is not helpful.

Hello,

I’m sorry if it is not helpful to you, but all of my views are derived from the teachings of the Noble Quran which I wholly believe to be the actual Word of Almighty God, pure and unadulterated since it was revealed to Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) over 1400 years ago.

If someone said to me that Islam is the polar opposite of Christianity then I said, “Well now wait a minute, that’s just not true… Didn’t Jesus say the first commandment is know o Israel that God is One and to worship Him with all your heart and soul and mind and the second is to love thy neighbor as thyself?" (sorry I don’t have a translation of the bible with me ) Well Islam teaches the same - so we can’t say they are polar opposites can we? And then for my proof I would bring the Verses of the Qur’aan that mention these things …

Other than that, If someone says to me that the Quran is false doctrine, then I would expect him to bring the proof for his statement.

Your conclusion just doesn’t sit right with me, if you can’t use your Scripture to explain your views on your religion (or way of life) then what does that say about your Scripture?

May Almighty God guide us all to the Straight Path.

 

[FrDavid96]

The thing is, is that I do “understand the question being asked”.

The God of the bible and the god of the koran are NOT the same.

Even you have said that except for being called the “God of Abraham” that there seem to be some “discrepancies” between the God of the bible and the “god” spoken of in the koran, haven’t you?

You keep proving that you still don’t understand the question being asked.

If you feel that the Catholic Church does not understand the issue, then you can take that up with the Catholic Church, since the Church teaches quite clearly and unambiguously that the God of Christianity and the God of Islam are one and the same.

 

[Servant19]

Hello and thank you for your question. First, I would like to clarify that I didn’t say I found the Truth in Muhammad. I found what I believe (with my whole heart, soul and mind) to be the truth in the Final Revelation to all of mankind: the Glorious Quran. I say this lest it is misunderstood that Muslims worship Muhammad or that Islam teaches us to worship Muhammad. Allaah says (what translates to mean):

Muhammad is not but a messenger. [Other] messengers have passed on before him. So if he was to die or be killed, would you turn back on your heels [to unbelief]? And he who turns back on his heels will never harm Allah at all; but Allah will reward the grateful. [The Quran 2:144]

And Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) said in an authentic hadeeth reported by Al-Bukhari on the authority of Omar (ibn Al Khattab - the close friend of Muhammad and second caliph of Islam, may God be pleased with him),* “ I heard the Prophet saying, ‘Do not exaggerate in praising me as the Christians praised the son of Mary, for I am only a slave. So, call me the slave of Allah and His Apostle.’"*

You asked if I heard about the founders of your faith and if I think that their message is from the same God that revealed His Final Message to all of humanity through Muhammad. I was not familiar with the tenants of your faith, so I did a cursory search on the internet and found a table that outlines the beliefs of Bahai alongside those of Islam. After looking it over I can say with 100% certainty that they are not from the same source. There are major fundamental differences, not the least of which is that Bahai teaches that certain holy men are “manifestations of God” while such a concept is 100 % against the teachings of Islam.

The unifying and ultimate message of Islam and that of all of God’s Prophets and Messengers is simple: Worship Only the Creator and do not worship anything of the creation, whether it be trees, sun, moon, stars, prophets, saints, or holy men etc…

I understand that each religion will have different ideas about what constitutes “worship”, so just to make clear, the Islamic concept of “worship” is, ***“Anything that God loves or is pleased with from the sayings and actions, both inwardly ( meaning, of the heart like belief, hope, reliance, seeking forgiveness etc…) and outwardly ( meaning, of the tongue and limbs like supplications, prayer, fasting, performing acts of kindness etc.).” ***

Therefore, if any of these internal or external saying or actions are done for other than the Almighty God then it is considered worshiping other than Him the High and Exalted - according to the teachings of Islam.

I ask Almighty God that He guides us all to the Straight Path and on the Straight Path.

Hi Kate,

I do not wish to derail the thread at all, and maybe if you wish we can explore some of the concepts you raise here in another thread?

Let me know and I can start one

In brief, the concept of the Manifestation of God is not what you seem to have concluded. There is no difference really between what is in the Quran and the Bible and the Baha’i Writings on the nature and relationship of the Holy Prophets with the Almighty God

.

 

[meltzerboy]

Hello and thank you for your question. First, I would like to clarify that I didn’t say I found the Truth in Muhammad. I found what I believe (with my whole heart, soul and mind) to be the truth in the Final Revelation to all of mankind: the Glorious Quran. I say this lest it is misunderstood that Muslims worship Muhammad or that Islam teaches us to worship Muhammad. Allaah says (what translates to mean):

Muhammad is not but a messenger. [Other] messengers have passed on before him. So if he was to die or be killed, would you turn back on your heels [to unbelief]? And he who turns back on his heels will never harm Allah at all; but Allah will reward the grateful. [The Quran 2:144]

And Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) said in an authentic hadeeth reported by Al-Bukhari on the authority of Omar (ibn Al Khattab - the close friend of Muhammad and second caliph of Islam, may God be pleased with him),* “ I heard the Prophet saying, ‘Do not exaggerate in praising me as the Christians praised the son of Mary, for I am only a slave. So, call me the slave of Allah and His Apostle.’"*

You asked if I heard about the founders of your faith and if I think that their message is from the same God that revealed His Final Message to all of humanity through Muhammad. I was not familiar with the tenants of your faith, so I did a cursory search on the internet and found a table that outlines the beliefs of Bahai alongside those of Islam. After looking it over I can say with 100% certainty that they are not from the same source. There are major fundamental differences, not the least of which is that Bahai teaches that certain holy men are “manifestations of God” while such a concept is 100 % against the teachings of Islam.

The unifying and ultimate message of Islam and that of all of God’s Prophets and Messengers is simple: Worship Only the Creator and do not worship anything of the creation, whether it be trees, sun, moon, stars, prophets, saints, or holy men etc…

I understand that each religion will have different ideas about what constitutes “worship”, so just to make clear, the Islamic concept of “worship” is, ***“Anything that God loves or is pleased with from the sayings and actions, both inwardly ( meaning, of the heart like belief, hope, reliance, seeking forgiveness etc…) and outwardly ( meaning, of the tongue and limbs like supplications, prayer, fasting, performing acts of kindness etc.).” ***

Therefore, if any of these internal or external saying or actions are done for other than the Almighty God then it is considered worshiping other than Him the High and Exalted - according to the teachings of Islam.

I ask Almighty God that He guides us all to the Straight Path and on the Straight Path.

This core tenet of Islam regarding worship seems very close to that of Judaism.

 

[GaryTaylor]

You keep proving that you still don’t understand the question being asked.

If you feel that the Catholic Church does not understand the issue, then you can take that up with the Catholic Church, since the Church teaches quite clearly and unambiguously that the God of Christianity and the God of Islam are one and the same.

No one said the Church doesn’t understand the issue. Are you saying this undefined page in the CCC regarding non Christians is infallible? We already been through all this. That’s simply not true.

 

[GaryTaylor]

“The Church’s relationship with the Muslims”

Do we know if this is Islam or individual Muslims? I always assumed it was a collective group. Ironically many don’t understand this as such. It was mentioned on this thread also. I see there’s no consensus here?

 

[PRmerger]

Hello,

I’m sorry if it is not helpful to you, but** all of my views are derived from **the teachings of the Noble Quran which I wholly believe to be the actual Word of Almighty God, pure and unadulterated since it was revealed to Prophet Muhammad (peace and blessings be upon him) over 1400 years ago.

I think that everyone who knows even a little about Islam would know this, Katie.

My point is that using the Koran to support your views on a Catholic forum is as helpful (not) as a bi-lingual person using Spanish to speak to an English Only advocate.

Rather, if you want to provide a reasoned defense for your beliefs here, best is to offer supporting points from what we both accept: logic and reason.

Just as a bi-lingual person would use English to dialogue with an English Only advocate.

If someone said to me that Islam is the polar opposite of Christianity then I said, “Well now wait a minute, that’s just not true… Didn’t Jesus say the first commandment is know o Israel that God is One and to worship Him with all your heart and soul and mind and the second is to love thy neighbor as thyself?" (sorry I don’t have a translation of the bible with me ) Well Islam teaches the same - so we can’t say they are polar opposites can we? And then for my proof I would bring the Verses of the Qur’aan that mention these things …

Right.

Your conclusion just doesn’t sit right with me, if you can’t use your Scripture to explain your views on your religion (or way of life) then what does that say about your Scripture?

I suppose I could use Scripture to *support *my views, but if I’m going to try to evangelize, say, an atheist, it’s inutile to say, “The Bible says that only a fool denies that there is a God!”.

Because you know what this atheist’s reaction is going to be?

It’s going to look like this:



Rather, in order to provide apologia to an atheist, I might direct him to these reasons for belief in God–which are an appeal through logic and reason, which is something that the atheist values highly (typically, anyway.)

peterkreeft.com/topics-more/20_arguments-gods-existence.htm

May Almighty God guide us all to the Straight Path.

Amen!

 

[Servant19]

This core tenet of Islam regarding worship seems very close to that of Judaism.

…and the Baha’i Faith

The fundamental spirit behind all religious worship is one. There are varying expressions due to cultural interpretations and Scriptural symbolism, but the spirit is one.

It is only the societal expression and systematic application of this spirit into the daily lives of individuals and communities at large that differs from age to age so that the evolutionary requirements of society can be met and are in line with Divine Will.

.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

…and the Baha’i Faith

The fundamental spirit behind all religious worship is one. There are varying expressions due to cultural interpretations and Scriptural symbolism, but the spirit is one.

It is only the societal expression and systematic application of this spirit into the daily lives of individuals and communities at large that differs from age to age so that the evolutionary requirements of society can be met and are in line with Divine Will.

.

The societal expression is not the only difference, but the doctrine concerning the identity of the God that is worshiped is fundamentally different between religions. You deny Jesus Christ as God, we say Jesus is God. We are not worshiping one in the same being, rather we are worshiping different entities in that very fact.

If what you were saying is correct, the worship of the golden bull, the gods of rome, the gods of greece and all other pagan divinities would have been acceptable to the God of the Old testament, but he is a jealous God and punishes those who worship false Gods. The very act of worshiping a false God is possible and in that possibility your idea of plurism, of saying we are all actually worshipping one in the same entity is challanged. Ideas matter, ideas about God matter even more so, because to accept some ideas about God is to exclude other ideas about God which is no light thing. God is beyond creation and thus whatever we say about him is a fragment of truth. You say God did not become incarnate, yet you insist that the incarnate God the Christians worship is the same God as yours? You say Jesus is Not God, yet you insist the God (JEsus) Christians worship is the same God as yours? You deny God as trinity (Believing in unitarianism instead) and yet you insist we have the same God?

If I worship a cosmic bull as God, is that the same God as your God?

 

[Servant19]

If I worship a cosmic bull as God, is that the same God as your God?

Thats not really a reflection of reality though Ignatian. The major global religions all espouse some significant similarities when expressing the attributes of the Divine Identity. There are no “cosmic bull” expressions out there.

It is the same when expressing the identity of any being.

I go to a party and two weeks later you ask 20 of the party-goers to describe me and you will get 20 different answers with some significant overlap. What you won’t get is anyone saying that I have a tail and make a noise like an elephant which is what you are trying to prove with this “cosmic bull”

No one says that…

That’s significant…

.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Thats not really a reflection of reality though Ignatian. The major global religions all espouse some significant similarities when expressing the attributes of the Divine Identity. There are no “cosmic bull” expressions out there.

It is the same when expressing the identity of any being.

I go to a party and two weeks later you ask 20 of the party-goers to describe me and you will get 20 different answers with some significant overlap. What you won’t get is anyone saying that I have a tail and make a noise like an elephant which is what you are trying to prove with this “cosmic bull”

No one says that…

That’s significant…

.

The question is a hypotheical, surely you are aware of people praying to various spirits of all sorts of different kinds within history? There are the Kami of japan, there are the ancestors of china and the various other pagan religions. There is of course the cosmic bull, represented by the bull worshipped by the children of israel. Why was God angry at them for worshipping him in this way? Its only the societal expression right? It doesn’t matter what we say or claim about this God right? You do not object to Christians worshipping a trinity, why should you object to the worship of the bull?

 

[Servant19]

If what you were saying is correct, the worship of the golden bull, the gods of rome, the gods of greece and all other pagan divinities would have been acceptable to the God of the Old testament, but he is a jealous God and punishes those who worship false Gods. The very act of worshiping a false God is possible and in that possibility your idea of plurism, of saying we are all actually worshipping one in the same entity is challanged. Ideas matter, ideas about God matter even more so, because to accept some ideas about God is to exclude other ideas about God which is no light thing. God is beyond creation and thus whatever we say about him is a fragment of truth. You say God did not become incarnate, yet you insist that the incarnate God the Christians worship is the same God as yours? You say Jesus is Not God, yet you insist the God (JEsus) Christians worship is the same God as yours? You deny God as trinity (Believing in unitarianism instead) and yet you insist we have the same God?

What “may” actually be coming out of all this thread however is that the descriptions of the Christian God are significantly different to the description provided by all the other major religions, simply because it is espoused as doctrine in Christianity that “God became man”

No other religion accepts that God can be contained within a human body.

Christianity developed this over time, and I believe it is extra-biblical…

.

 

[Servant19]

The question is a hypotheical, surely you are aware of people praying to various spirits of all sorts of different kinds within history? There are the Kami of japan, there are the ancestors of china and the various other pagan religions. There is of course the cosmic bull, represented by the bull worshipped by the children of israel. Why was God angry at them for worshipping him in this way? Its only the societal expression right? It doesn’t matter what we say or claim about this God right? You do not object to Christians worshipping a trinity, why should you object to the worship of the bull?

Yes, you can go look at ALL of these worshipped indigenous “spirits” etc and you will realise that there are an INCREDIBLE amount of similarities to the Abrahamic God.

I have studied Australian Aboriginal spirituality and I can put hand on heart and tell you that they worship the same God that Baha’is worship (and all other religions for that matter)

God is indeed great!

He has found means to provide spiritual guidance to every single individual on earth, from the dawn of time, to express their love for Him and to know Him better.

…and here we all are bickering about what colour his eyes are…

.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

What “may” actually be coming out of all this thread however is that the descriptions of the Christian God are significantly different to the description provided by all the other major religions, simply because it is espoused as doctrine in Christianity that “God became man”

No other religion accepts that God can be contained within a human body.

Christianity developed this over time, and I believe it is extra-biblical…

.

So what is it you are attempting to do now? Are you criticizing our doctrine for being wrong or are you still saying we have the same God? If our doctrine is objectionable for you, that means it is wrong for you, that it is something that cannot be applied to God in your mind. You however still insist very mysteriously that we still all worship the same God while saying “You are wrong about who God is.”

If we worship the same God while invoking a different image of God then there really are no boundaries. For example you must accept the worship of Zeus who also did things you would object to like sleeping with and raping countless women. To disagree with this, the only thing you could argue is that such actions are impossible by your God because he is spirit and not immoral. Why don’t you do the same for the trinity? I think its your emotional need to feel somehow connected to Christians, not any argument or logical reason which lets you keep this belief.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Yes, you can go look at ALL of these worshipped indigenous “spirits” etc and you will realise that there are an INCREDIBLE amount of similarities to the Abrahamic God.

I have studied Australian Aboriginal spirituality and I can put hand on heart and tell you that they worship the same God that Baha’is worship (and all other religions for that matter)

God is indeed great!

He has found means to provide spiritual guidance to every single individual on earth, from the dawn of time, to express their love for Him and to know Him better.

…and here we all are bickering about what colour his eyes are…

.

Since when are similarities taken to mean the same identity?

Satan is non physical, God is non physical. Satan has great power, God has great power. Satan has influence over men, God has influence over men. Satan seeks after men relentlessly, God seeks after men relentlessly. Therefore Satan is God? Surely you see the problem here?

Lets take it another way.

Heres what you might say about Ali Hussain.

Ali Hussein is Good, God is also good. Ali Hussein was sinless, God is also sinless. Ali Hussein is required to be believed for for salvation, God is required to be believed in for salvation. Ali Hussein is in his true essence is non material, God in his true essence is Non material. Therefore Ali Hussein is God?

Surely you, despite your absolute need to cling to your doctrine see the fallacy? A similarity does not mean an identical nature or person. Lets do another exercise.

Bulls are powerful, God is powerful. Bulls have been worshiped, God has been worshiped. Gold is worth a lot, God is worth a lot. Therefore God is a golden bull.

Tell me what the Israelites did wrong in worshiping the Gold bull. Tell me, did the Australian aborigines depict there gods as beasts, people and creeping things? I’m fairly sure they did and if I recall there was a rainbow snake of some kind or something to that effect.

 

[Servant19]

So what is it you are attempting to do now? Are you criticizing our doctrine for being wrong or are you still saying we have the same God? If our doctrine is objectionable for you, that means it is wrong for you, that it is something that cannot be applied to God in your mind. You however still insist very mysteriously that we still all worship the same God while saying “You are wrong about who God is.”

If we worship the same God while invoking a different image of God then there really are no boundaries. For example you must accept the worship of Zeus who also did things you would object to like sleeping with and raping countless women. To disagree with this, the only thing you could argue is that such actions are impossible by your God because he is spirit and not immoral. Why don’t you do the same for the trinity? I think its your emotional need to feel somehow connected to Christians, not any argument or logical reason which lets you keep this belief.

Ignatian, I am not trying to criticize.

We still worship the same God.

That Cristianity indoctrinates its adherents that God has the ability to become a human being is simply an “ATTRIBUTE” of the one same God.

Does not make Him a different God at all. He simply has the attribute to humanize Himself.
This attribute is not shared by any of the other Abrahamic religions, but it does not mean it is not true.

God may very well be able to do such a thing. I personally believe it contradicts the Bible, from my understanding of it simply because the Father is greater than the Son…

.

 

[Servant19]

Since when are similarities taken to mean the same identity?

Satan is non physical, God is non physical. Satan has great power, God has great power. Satan has influence over men, God has influence over men. Satan seeks after men relentlessly, God seeks after men relentlessly. Therefore Satan is God? Surely you see the problem here?

Lets take it another way.

Heres what you might say about Ali Hussain.

Ali Hussein is Good, God is also good. Ali Hussein was sinless, God is also sinless. Ali Hussein is required to be believed for for salvation, God is required to be believed in for salvation. Ali Hussein is in his true essence is non material, God in his true essence is Non material. Therefore Ali Hussein is God?

Surely you, despite your absolute need to cling to your doctrine see the fallacy? A similarity does not mean an identical nature or person. Lets do another exercise.

Bulls are powerful, God is powerful. Bulls have been worshiped, God has been worshiped. Gold is worth a lot, God is worth a lot. Therefore God is a golden bull.

Tell me what the Israelites did wrong in worshiping the Gold bull. Tell me, did the Australian aborigines depict there gods as beasts, people and creeping things? I’m fairly sure they did and if I recall there was a rainbow snake of some kind or something to that effect.

You’re using your head and not your heart Ignatian…

.

 

[meltzerboy]

Ignatian, I am not trying to criticize.

We still worship the same God.

That Cristianity indoctrinates its adherents that God has the ability to become a human being is simply an “ATTRIBUTE” of the one same God.

Does not make Him a different God at all. He simply has the attribute to humanize Himself.
This attribute is not shared by any of the other Abrahamic religions, but it does not mean it is not true.

God may very well be able to do such a thing. I personally believe it contradicts the Bible, from my understanding of it simply because the Father is greater than the Son…

.

Is your last statement, that the Father is greater than the Son, referring to the New Testament? I don’t think it says that. They are not meant to be separate entities but rather serve different functions. All Persons of the Trinity are considered by Christians as one G-d.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Ignatian, I am not trying to criticize.

We still worship the same God.

That Cristianity indoctrinates its adherents that God has the ability to become a human being is simply an “ATTRIBUTE” of the one same God.

Does not make Him a different God at all. He simply has the attribute to humanize Himself.
This attribute is not shared by any of the other Abrahamic religions, but it does not mean it is not true.

God may very well be able to do such a thing. I personally believe it contradicts the Bible, from my understanding of it simply because the Father is greater than the Son…

.

So you tell me the incarnation is extra biblical and then go on to say your not criticizing and that we’re worshiping the same God? Are you reading the letters you are typing or does it flow naturally out of you? This pathetic attempt to be so politically correct, so unoffensive that when you let it slip out that you think we are wrong you will immediately backtrack? Why will you not instead continue to counter and exclaim how wrong the Christians are, how we have totally misread the scripture for 2000 years until the enlightened bahai came about? Its an attitude that disgusts me.

What’s curious however is that immediately after back tracking you go on the attack once more? Saying we indoctrinate, meaning what exactly? That we teach our children the faith as you no doubt teach your children your faith? That we teach things to those interested in becoming Christian like you teach things to those interested in believing Ali Hussain? Perhaps we should call you Hussainites.

Now his incarnation is an action of God, not an attribute like being good or being just and etc. The incarnation is describing who God actually is, that he took on human form. He did not transform and loose any part of his divinity but rather added an additional nature to himself. You need to understand the incarnation before you can speak about it.

You then go on to say you believe it contradicts the bible. We are back to my original point. Why does it matter that it contradicts the bible? We worship the same God so whats it to you? God isn’t going to punish me by the sounds of it, so why do you care?

 

[Servant19]

Is your last statement, that the Father is greater than the Son, referring to the New Testament? I don’t think it says that. They are not meant to be separate entities but rather serve different functions. All Persons of the Trinity are considered by Christians as one G-d.

Yes it is in reference to the NT Melzer

Whatever is the nature of this “function”, I personally believe that Jesus Himself identified the Father as being greater than Him.

If Jesus was God Incarnate, then He would not have made this statement, for there is no greater than God in “any” capacity…

.