Do Muslims and Catholics worship the same God?

[IgnatianPhilo]

You’re using your head and not your heart Ignatian…

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I thought it was the bahai who criticism Christians for being fundamentalists, for not investigating the faith and coming to conclusions based on science and reason? Am I to become a emotional believer now only going where my fragile heart leads me? I dare say if I went where my heart lead me it would lead me away from God, but it is who God is and his powerful presence that keeps me in check, that will not allow me to be done with God. He is the basis upon which everything builds and is checked against.

But if that is your response to my criticism, I want to rephrase it. I am following truth instead of what I want to follow.

 

[meltzerboy]

So you tell me the incarnation is extra biblical and then go on to say your not criticizing and that we’re worshiping the same God? Are you reading the letters you are typing or does it flow naturally out of you? This pathetic attempt to be so politically correct, so unoffensive that when you let it slip out that you think we are wrong you will immediately backtrack? Why will you not instead continue to counter and exclaim how wrong the Christians are, how we have totally misread the scripture for 2000 years until the enlightened bahai came about? Its an attitude that disgusts me.

What’s curious however is that immediately after back tracking you go on the attack once more? Saying we indoctrinate, meaning what exactly? That we teach our children the faith as you no doubt teach your children your faith? That we teach things to those interested in becoming Christian like you teach things to those interested in believing Ali Hussain? Perhaps we should call you Hussainites.

Now his incarnation is an action of God, not an attribute like being good or being just and etc. The incarnation is describing who God actually is, that he took on human form. He did not transform and loose any part of his divinity but rather added an additional nature to himself. You need to understand the incarnation before you can speak about it.

You then go on to say you believe it contradicts the bible. We are back to my original point. Why does it matter that it contradicts the bible? We worship the same God so whats it to you? God isn’t going to punish me by the sounds of it, so why do you care?

Do Christians really believe that G-d in the Person of Jesus “added an additional nature to Himself”? I thought G-d is regarded as unchanging in His nature.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Yes it is in reference to the NT Melzer

Whatever is the nature of this “function”, I personally believe that Jesus Himself identified the Father as being greater than Him.

If Jesus was God Incarnate, then He would not have made this statement, for there is no greater than God in “any” capacity…

.

Obviously you have not taken the time to investigate the trinitarian claims and beliefs. In my mind there are two possible answers to this. Jesus during this time was humbled, not taking his equality with God something to be for his own advantage but to the service of the father. Now if you reject Paul this answer will not suite you.

The second option is that Christ is not referring to the ontological greatness of the father but the position of the father as the fount of all divinity from which the son eternally proceeds. The trinity within Christianity recognizes the differences between the father son and spirit and that is one of them, the father is the fount and source of all divinity and the son and spirit come from the father from all eternity.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Do Christians really believe that G-d in the Person of Jesus “added an additional nature to Himself”? I thought G-d is regarded as unchanging in His nature.

There are different strands of thought regarding this and I can only represent the branch that accepts Chalcedonian Christianity, Catholic, Orthodox and most Protestants. We believe in Jesus there are two essences, humanity and divinity, the two are neither confused nor mixed but each retains the nature essential to itself. Divinity in the incarnation was in no way changed (for it is impossible for God to change) but the person of the second person of the trinity, Jesus took on an additional nature to his divinity.

This is why Christians say he was 100% man and 100% God and not fifty fifty. To me, the suggestion of God’s essence changing, that is his essence of divinity, what God has been from all eternity is an impossibility. That does not stop him taking on to himself a human nature.

 

[Servant19]

I thought it was the bahai who criticism Christians for being fundamentalists, for not investigating the faith and coming to conclusions based on science and reason? Am I to become a emotional believer now only going where my fragile heart leads me? I dare say if I went where my heart lead me it would lead me away from God, but it is who God is and his powerful presence that keeps me in check, that will not allow me to be done with God. He is the basis upon which everything builds and is checked against.

But if that is your response to my criticism, I want to rephrase it. I am following truth instead of what I want to follow.

No Ignatian, dear friend. The reason I say this is because your post above denies the supremely beautiful expressions of worship and human morality that indigenous populations express in the name of their Deity.

It doesn’t matter what the Deity is. It can be a Golden Bull as far as I am concerned, the reality is that God wishes to be worshipped as an “INNER” expression of purity which manifests itself in human beings reflecting Godly attributes in their character.

The “rainbow serpent” as you mentioned expresses creation, and Aboriginal connection with that is expressed by the motif:

“Our spirituality is a oneness and an interconnectedness with all that lives and breathes, even with all that does not live or breathe.”

This is an inner expression of purity which expresses itself with love. The Holy Spirit is working through the Aboriginals because of the attributes of the Rainbow Serpent.

God lives within EVERY HUMAN HEART Ignatian, and when it is at its most pure, you know it is God because it expresses itself with Godly attributes, such as love, generosity, trustworthiness, courtesy, respect, kindness, etc etc.

Thats when you know that you are worshipping one and the same God…

.

 

[meltzerboy]

There are different strands of thought regarding this and I can only represent the branch that accepts Chalcedonian Christianity, Catholic, Orthodox and most Protestants. We believe in Jesus there are two essences, humanity and divinity, the two are neither confused nor mixed but each retains the nature essential to itself. Divinity in the incarnation was in no way changed (for it is impossible for God to change) but the person of the second person of the trinity, Jesus took on an additional nature to his divinity.

This is why Christians say he was 100% man and 100% God and not fifty fifty. To me, the suggestion of God’s essence changing, that is his essence of divinity, what God has been from all eternity is an impossibility. That does not stop him taking on to himself a human nature.

I guess the critical part is the exact meaning of the last statement: “That does not stop him taking on to himself a human nature.” It appears then that Jesus in his fully human form is also G-d then as much as in his fully divine form, and there is really no human side of Jesus. Is that what you mean, or do you mean that Jesus as G-d actually became human while being divine at the same time? Also, how did the Church figure out all of this?

 

[PRmerger]

No other religion accepts that God can be contained within a human body.

This statement is a peculiar one in that it defies reason. God, the Omnipotent Creator, according to this view, can create magnificent mountains and oceans, the quark and the planet Jupiter, but, somehow, finds it an impossibility to be “contained within a human body.”

What a breach of logic that is!

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

No Ignatian, dear friend. The reason I say this is because your post above denies the supremely beautiful expressions of worship and human morality that indigenous populations express in the name of their Deity.

It doesn’t matter what the Deity is. It can be a Golden Bull as far as I am concerned, the reality is that God wishes to be worshipped as an “INNER” expression of purity which manifests itself in human beings reflecting Godly attributes in their character.

The “rainbow serpent” as you mentioned expresses creation, and Aboriginal connection with that is expressed by the motif:

This is an inner expression of purity which expresses itself with love. The Holy Spirit is working through the Aboriginals because of the attributes of the Rainbow Serpent.

God lives within EVERY HUMAN HEART Ignatian, and when it is at its most pure, you know it is God because it expresses itself with Godly attributes, such as love, generosity, trustworthiness, courtesy, respect, kindness, etc etc.

Thats when you know that you are worshipping one and the same God…

.

My post as far as I can see is like that of God rejecting the people of Israel and punishing them for worshiping the golden calf. You however have rejected that important story and lesson in the old testament, not to worship another God besides him. Is God not a jealous God punishing those to the third and fourth generations? Is God not a God who ordered the slaughter of those who worshiped false gods and committed abominations? Is God not a God who lit the sacrifice of Elijah and not the sacrifice of the priests of Ba’al?

You have rejected the true God and have embraced a non biblical God who is nothing like this God. We have nothing further to discuss if this is your position. If it is your position we can worship a bull, if it is your position we can sacrifice people to the sun and that can still be considered legitimate worship of God, then we have nothing to talk about.

I believe I said this to a bahai on the bahai forums once, perhaps you, that you are like those Israelites who worshiped on the mountains which God eventually punished Israel for. What did the Mother and her sons in 2 Maccabees die for in refusing to honour the Greek gods by a sacrifice to them? They were just worshiping the same God after all. What did the early Christians die for when they refused to offer sacrifices to the luck of Ceaser and to the gods of Rome? Your answer is nothing, you would tell them they would be justified in doing those actions.

What an abominable religion you have.

 

[PRmerger]

This statement is a peculiar one in that it defies reason. God, the Omnipotent Creator, according to this view, can create magnificent mountains and oceans, the quark and the planet Jupiter, but, somehow, finds it an impossibility to be “contained within a human body.”

What a breach of logic that is!

And the 2 viewpoints below, juxtaposed together, provide an even greater cognitive dissonance.

No other religion accepts that God can be contained within a human body.

God lives within EVERY HUMAN HEART Ignatian,

So according to this view God cannot “be contained within a human body” yet “lives within EVERY HUMAN HEART.”

:whacky:

 

[Servant19]

This statement is a peculiar one in that it defies reason. God, the Omnipotent Creator, according to this view, can create magnificent mountains and oceans, the quark and the planet Jupiter, but, somehow, finds it an impossibility to be “contained within a human body.”

What a breach of logic that is!

Hi PR,

My humble understanding is that a Creator creates He creates mountains, oceans, Jupiter etc.

The moment He BECOMES the creation is the moment that He no longer is the Creator, He is the CREATED

I think that this is also pretty logical…

.

 

[Servant19]

And the 2 viewpoints below, juxtaposed together, provide an even greater cognitive dissonance.

So according to this view God cannot “be contained within a human body” yet “lives within EVERY HUMAN HEART.”

:whacky:

By God, I am referring to EVERY SINGLE one of His attributes, not His essence.

God’s creation is full of His attributes. It is through His creation we can get a incling of knowledge from Him.

The human heart however, He has reserved for the manifestation of every single one of His attributes. When these are expressed externally in their purest fashion, we become the perfect human being…

…

 

[Servant19]

My post as far as I can see is like that of God rejecting the people of Israel and punishing them for worshiping the golden calf. You however have rejected that important story and lesson in the old testament, not to worship another God besides him. Is God not a jealous God punishing those to the third and fourth generations? Is God not a God who ordered the slaughter of those who worshiped false gods and committed abominations? Is God not a God who lit the sacrifice of Elijah and not the sacrifice of the priests of Ba’al?

You have rejected the true God and have embraced a non biblical God who is nothing like this God. We have nothing further to discuss if this is your position. If it is your position we can worship a bull, if it is your position we can sacrifice people to the sun and that can still be considered legitimate worship of God, then we have nothing to talk about.

I believe I said this to a bahai on the bahai forums once, perhaps you, that you are like those Israelites who worshiped on the mountains which God eventually punished Israel for. What did the Mother and her sons in 2 Maccabees die for in refusing to honour the Greek gods by a sacrifice to them? They were just worshiping the same God after all. What did the early Christians die for when they refused to offer sacrifices to the luck of Ceaser and to the gods of Rome? Your answer is nothing, you would tell them they would be justified in doing those actions.

What an abominable religion you have.

Ignatian, may I humbly suggest you study the correct translation of the term “pistis Christu” from the letters of Paul…

.

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

Ignatian, may I humbly suggest you study the correct translation of the term “pistis Christu” from the letters of Paul…

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You tell me first what the martyrs died for if they were no more saved than the pagans who killed them for not sacrificing to their gods.

 

[Servant19]

You tell me first what the martyrs died for if they were no more saved than the pagans who killed them for not sacrificing to their gods.

The martyrs died and were saved because of their faith in Jesus Christ and the expression of “pistis Christu”

Jesus was the human Godhead for all humans until Muhammad declared “I am”

.

 

[GaryTaylor]

By God, I am referring to EVERY SINGLE one of His attributes, not His essence.

God’s creation is full of His attributes. It is through His creation we can get a incling of knowledge from Him.

The human heart however, He has reserved for the manifestation of every single one of His attributes. When these are expressed externally in their purest fashion, we become the perfect human being…

…

How does one who only “can get an inkling of knowledge from God” know what God can and can’t do?

Those attributes not of God, where do they come from?

How does one who creates go ahead and create something, then the creation lives and becomes a perfect human being with every single one of Gods attributes of which we only can get an inkling of knowledge of?

This God who can do anything, why would you then suggest there is something he cannot do?

 

[Servant19]

How does one who only “can get an inkling of knowledge from God” know what God can and can’t do?

We don’t really know what God can and can’t do, one can only deduce based on reason and logic, and based on Faith in the Words of His Chosen Prophets/Messengers

Those attributes not of God, where do they come from?

Can you name some attributes not of God please?

My understanding is that there are ONLY Gods attributes expressed in creation, just in varying degrees

How does one who creates go ahead and create something, then the creation lives and becomes a perfect human being with every single one of Gods attributes of which we only can get an inkling of knowledge of?

The attributes we can explore fully.
The essence is beyond our capacity to have full knowledge.

Just like the suns attributes of heat and light are explorable more fully than we can explore and know about the suns essence in and of itself.

This God who can do anything, why would you then suggest there is something he cannot do?

I never suggested that to become a human Incarnate is impossible for God, I just presented my humble understanding based on logic and reason

.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Jesus was the human Godhead for all humans until Muhammad declared “I am”

We lets look at these two and see who has these attributes of God which are referred to.

I see “no” comparison.

And frankly since God can do anything. I say He is Jesus Christ the living God, Unless someone knows why God can’t do something.

 

[GaryTaylor]

We don’t really know what God can and can’t do, one can only deduce based on reason and logic, and based on Faith in the Words of His Chosen Prophets/Messengers.

Nonsense you do not know what He can and cannot do. PERIOD.

Can you name some attributes not of God please?.

You bought this up? Is murder and lying HIs attribute?

My understanding is that there are ONLY Gods attributes expressed in creation, just in varying degrees .

But God can do anything?

The attributes we can explore fully.
The essence is beyond our capacity to have full knowledge…

You contradicted yourself “we can get a incling of knowledge from Him.”

Just like the suns attributes of heat and light are explorable more fully than we can explore and know about the suns essence in and of itself…

“we can get a incling of knowledge from Him.” But he can do anything.

I never suggested that to become a human Incarnate is impossible for God, I just presented my humble understanding based on logic and reason .

Your humble opinion is you do not know what God can do if He can do anything.

 

[GaryTaylor]

you still do not understand the question being asked.

I don’t understand what is said to answer the question being asked, nor was it clearly defined to do so?

“The Church’s relationship with the Muslims”.

Who exactly are these souls we call here "muslim?

It doesn’t say anything about a book called the Quran nor Islam.

And what’s our relationship with those who as of yet we don’t know “exactly” who they are.

 

[PRmerger]

Hi PR,

My humble understanding is that a Creator creates He creates mountains, oceans, Jupiter etc.

The moment He BECOMES the creation is the moment that He no longer is the Creator, He is the CREATED

I think that this is also pretty logical…

.

Certainly.

Were you under the misapprehension that God BECAME the creation?