Do Muslims and Catholics worship the same God?

[Servant19]

Is creation ex nihilo?

Hi Gary,

Vouthon did kindly put forward some quotes which require context.

If I may provide an extract from a wonderful book called “The Eternal Quest for God” by Julio Savi which gives a pretty comprehensive overview of creation from a Baha’i perspective, and also of God, His attributes, the nature of these attributes and how they emanate into a creative reality, the nature of the “Eternal Logos” or “Promal Will” and how it is pre-existent with God but does not share “Absolute Pre-existence” with God’s Essence, etc etc.

My apologies it is lengthy, but it is important because it builds upon certain foundations which are a necessity to rationalize the theology, but feel free to scroll down to the parts that interest you.

God is the Creator: if we want to find His traces in the universe, the first issue we should try to clarify is the creational relation between Him and the universe.

A full understanding of the great mystery of creation is undoubtedly beyond the reach of any creature: it is a question which will for ever disappoint all human effort. And yet the Bahá’í texts set forth many explanations on this issue: we will try to summarize some of them. Undoubtedly others will peruse these texts with greater skill, the more so in the future when those numerous texts will become available which cannot be studied today by most Western readers because they are as yet unpublished in Western languages or even in the original text.

The world of God

God in His Essence is unknowable, inaccessible to man: we can only say that He exists, but we cannot know anything else about Him, not even what `to exist’ means for Him.

And yet, we are used to ascribe to Him names and attributes: Creator, All-Knowing, Provider, or Word, Will, Love, and so on. The meaning of this ascription of names and attributes is explained in the Bahá’í texts in two ways:

The names and attributes we ascribe to God refer to what we understand of them in the world of creation. `Abdu'l-Bahá says: `Their [the attribute's] existence is proved and necessitated by the appearance of phenomena':[7] we see that the universe follows a harmonious and ordered way, and we say that God is its Ordainer; we see creatures, and we say that God is their Creator. But our understanding of these attributes is only what we have under-stood, in the plane of the world of creation, of these spiritual truths, which are far beyond our minds. This is what Western philosophers call via eminentiae.

The names and attributes we ascribe to God `are only in order to deny imperfections, rather than to assert the perfections that the human mind can conceive'.[8] For example, we say that He is the Almighty, meaning that He is not powerless, as His creatures are. This is what Western philosophy calls via negationis or remotionis.

From both these explanations, we understand that man comprehends the attributes of God in his own degree of existence – the world of creation – and not in God’s degree of existence – the world of God. Bahá’u’lláh writes: ...the highest praise which human tongue or pen can render are all the product of man's finite mind and are conditioned by its limitations'9 and Abdu’l-Bahá declares: `However far mind may progress, though it may reach to the final degree of comprehension, the limit of under-standing, it beholds the divine signs and attributes in the world of creation and not in the world of God.’[10]

The attributes we ascribe to God fall in the Bahá’í texts (as well as in the Islamic tradition) into two categories: essential and active attributes.[11] But, whereas in the Islamic tradition, the two categories of attributes are clearly distinguished from each other, i.e. a Divine attribute is either essential or active, in the Bahá’í texts the same attribute can be viewed as essential (i.e. in its own reality) or as active (i.e. as ex-pressed in action), depending on the plane in which it is seen.[12]

The Bahá’í texts state moreover that we understand but a faint reflection of God’s active attributes in the world, and that we cannot understand anything at all of His essential at-tributes. In fact, Abdu'l-Bahá says that the essential names and attributes of God are identical with His Essence…’ and sets forth a concise, rational explanation of His statement:

God is absolutely preexistent, i.e. He `is not preceded by a Cause', and therefore His is `essential pre-existence'; moreover He `is without beginning', and therefore He has also `preexistence of time'..13

`If the attributes are not identical with the Essence, there must also be a multiplicity of preexistences';[13]

`...as Preexistence is necessary (essential), therefore the sequence of preexistence would become infinite. This is an evident error.'

Inasmuch as Divine Essence and divine essential names and attributes are one and the same thing, it follows that:

God's essential names and attributes are incomprehensible as well as His Essence.[14]

`As the divine entity is eternal, the divine attributes are coexistent, coeternal'[15] and `co-equal'[16] with and to Him.

`...His attributes are infinite.'

`...the names of God are actually and forever existent and not potential',[17] otherwise God would be imperfect.

It is therefore possible to conceive a station where only God, Who is essentially preexistent and preexistent of time, exists, with His incomprehensible, coexistent, coeternal', co-equal’, infinite', actually… existing’ essential Names and Attributes.

Bahá’u’lláh alludes thus to such station: `He was a hidden treasure… This is a station that can never be described, not even alluded to’.[18]

(cont…)

 

[Servant19]

The world of the Kingdom

If God is inaccessible in His Essence, if He transcends His creatures and is sanctified from any other reality, what is the relation binding His creatures to Him?

Abdu'l-Bahá says: The dependence of the creatures upon God is a dependence of emanation – that is to say, creatures emanate from God; they do not manifest Him.’[19]

Creation as emanation – as the Bahá’í texts explain it – implies the following fundamental points:

God is absolutely transcendental and preexistent;
creatures do not manifest God's Essence, from which they emanate; but they mirror forth its active attributes;
creatures have their existence in different degrees.

God’s transcendence and pre-existence.

This concept was previously discussed:

God is unknowable in His Essence and in His essential attributes;
God has absolute preexistence:

    He is not preceded by a cause (essential preexistence)
    He is not preceded in time by other realities (preexistence of time)

the attributes we ascribe to Him are intended to deny His imperfection (via negationis or remotionis).

God and His creatures.

Abdu'l-Bahá explains: …creatures emanate from God; they do not manifest Him.’ He says moreover that if creatures would appear through manifestation',19 then it would follow that the Essence of Divinity had descended in them, transforming Itself into them; but this is impossible, otherwise God -- taking on phenomenal attributes -- would reduce Himself to imperfection. Abdu’l-Bahá explains the meaning of such a concept of manifestation, through the metaphor of a seed and a tree.[20] The tree manifests the seed because the essence of the seed has gone into branches, leaves, roots and flowers forming the tree. This concept cannot apply to creation. He explains the meaning of the concept of emanation through other metaphors: the sun and its rays, an actor and his action, a writer and his writings, a speaker and his speech. Under those circumstances, the essence of the creator does not go into the created objects, but his active attributes appear in them. The relation between God and His creatures is similar: this relation is not through the Essence of the Creator, nor through His essential attributes, but through His active attributes. These active attributes, while expressing themselves, emanate or radiate from the Creator and appear in His creatures as symbols of His perfections. The whole creation can be therefore viewed as `evidences that proclaim the excellence and perfection of their author’…[21]

Different degrees in the world of existence.

The process of creation as emanation implies the existence of many different realities which, though all emanating from God – Supreme Centre'[22] -- differ from each other because of their different degrees. Bahá'u'lláh writes: Furthermore, consider the signs of the revelation of God in their relation to one another. Can the sun, which is but one of these signs, be regarded as equal in rank to darkness… Consider your own selves. Your nails and eyes are both parts of your bodies. Do ye regard them of equal rank and value?.. every created thing should be viewed in the light of the station it hath been ordained to occupy.’ He writes moreover that God `…hath entrusted every created thing with a sign of His knowledge, so that none of His creatures may be deprived of its share in expressing, each according its capacity and rank, this knowledge. This sign is a mirror of His beauty in the world of creation.’[23]

There are still long studies to be done in order to better understand this concept, the more so as many Bahá’í texts – as has already been mentioned – are as yet unpublished, both in translation into Western languages and in their original version. Nevertheless, a concept appears even now very clear: three fundamental levels may be perceived in the world of being: (1) the world of creation; (2) an intermediary world which has been called the world of the Kingdom (or First Mind, First Will or Primal Will, Word of God, Logos, Identity or Self or Soul of God);[24] 3) the world of God. These three levels seem to be the same as the three conditions of existence mentioned by Abdu'l-Bahá: …servitude… prophethood… and… Deity’.[25] While the world of God is a world of Absolute Unity, wholly unknowable for man, many degrees of reality can be discerned both in the world of the Kingdom and in the world of creation.

 

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The world of the Kingdom.

The first emanation from God is the bounty of the Kingdom', says Abdu’l-Bahá; and elsewhere He explains in Plotinian terms:[26] The first thing which emanated from God is that universal reality, which the ancient philosophers termed the "First Mind", and which the people of Bah call the "First Will"... '.[27] The station of this first emanation, where the whole process of existence has its beginning, is alluded to by Bahá'u'lláh in one of His famous aphorisms: Veiled in My immemorial being and in the ancient eternity of My essence I knew My love for thee; therefore I created thee… ‘:[28] God, unattainable in His unfathomable Essence, is conscious (He is, indeed, the All-Knowing) of Himself and of His own essential names and attributes, one of which is Love. This Love, on the one hand, implies – just as any other of God’s attributes and names which are actually... existing and not potential'[29] -- the existence of a recipient upon which it may be bestowed; on the other -- being perfect -- it implies also that God is willing to bestow it. Bahá'u'lláh alludes to such spiritual reality with His words “I did wish to make Myself known”’…[30]

In these words Bahá’u’lláh is, apparently, alluding to a station of existence, more than describing a reality in time and space. Next to the station of Absolute Divine Unity, a station is described in which the essential attributes of God express them-selves as active attributes: Love, as the act of loving; Knowledge, as the act of knowing; Will, as the act of willing. In this station the primal unity splits into a couple, a subject and an object, which in reality are identical: it is God Who knows and loves Himself. In fact, His essential attributes are identical with His Essence and His active attributes are but His essential attributes in their active expression.

Whereas the ancient philosophers called this station First Mind', thus emphasizing the attribute of Knowledge, the Bahá'í texts prefer the term Primal Will or First Will’:[31] God is Love (essential attribute), He loves Himself (active attribute), therefore He wants to bestow His Love (First Will). In this regard, Bahá’u’lláh writes: The Cause of creation of all contingent beings has been love, as it is mentioned in the famous tradition: "I was a hidden treasure, and I loved to be known. Therefore I created the creation in order to be known"',[32] and Abdu’l-Bahá says that every love existing in the whole universe comes from the love of God towards the Self or Identity of God', a love He describes as the reality of Love, the Ancient Love, the Eternal Love’…[33] Elsewhere He says that love is the source of all the bestowals of God', the cause of the creation of the phenomenal world’, the axis round which life revolves', the eternal sovereignty… the divine power’, the first effulgence of divinity and the greatest splendour of God', the greatest bestowal of God’ and the conscious bestowal of God',[34] …the transfiguration of His beauty, the reflection of Himself in the mirror of His creation’…[35]

Pre-existence of the world of the Kingdom.

Explaining the station of the world of the Kingdom, Abdu'l-Bahá says: This emanation, in that which concerns its action in the world of God, is not limited by time or place; it is without beginning or end – beginning and end in relation to God are one.’ Then He adds: `Though the “First Mind” is without beginning, it does not become a sharer in the preexistence of God, for the preexistence of the universal reality in relation to the existence of God is nothing-ness, and it has not the power to become an associate of God and like unto Him in preexistence… '…[36]

He describes the world of the Kingdom as an intermediate spiritual reality, which, on the one hand, cannot be identified with God, Who is unfathomable in His Essence, and, on the other, is eternal and infinite, because it emanates directly from Him. This reality is not essential preexistence, because it is preceded by a Cause that is God Himself; but it is temporal preexistence, because it has no beginning. For even as the essential attributes of God are coexistent, coeternal' with God, so also the world of the Kingdom -- which is the expression of these essential attributes as active attributes -- is coeternal with God. In fact the divine attributes are actually and forever existent and not potential’,[37] or else God would be imperfect. Bahá’u’lláh writes: His name, the Creator, presupposes a creation'; and moreover: The one true God hath everlastingly existed, and will everlastingly continue to exist. His creation, likewise, has no beginning, and will have no end.‘38 And Abdu'l-Bahá explains: …just as the reality of Divinity never had a beginning – that is, God hath ever been a Creator… – so there hath never been a time when the attributes of God have not had an expression’…[39] Therefore God is both preexistent and uncreated, whereas the world of the Kingdom is preexistent, but created.

 

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The world of the Kingdom and spirit.

The world of the Kingdom is often likened by Abdu'l-Bahá to the sun:[40] The outer sun is a sign or symbol of the inner and ideal Sun of Truth, the Word of God’; and moreover: `In our solar system the centre of illumination is the sun itself. Through the Will of God, this central luminary is the one source of the existence and development of all phenomenal things… But if we reflect deeply, we will perceive that the great bestower and giver of life is God; the sun is the intermediary of His will and plan… Likewise, in the spiritual realm of intelligence and idealism there must be a center of illumination, and that center is the ever-lasting, ever-shining Sun, the Word of God.’[41] As the sun radiates light and heat bestowing life upon the phenomenal world, so spiritual reality pours out its divine bounties (spirit), bringing into existence all created things.

This metaphor, frequently used in the Bahá’í texts, enables us to understand other concepts about the world of the Kingdom: the process of creation as emanation is a continuous, gradual and descending process. From the Supreme Centre',[42] -- the Essence of Divinity, Absolute Preexistence, uncreated, unattainable in its essential attributes (and this is not -- it should be noted once again -- a place or a time, but a station), emanates the world of the Kingdom, preexistent in time but created, which is the manifestation as emanation of God's active qualities and attributes. The world of the Kingdom has, likewise, its essential attributes, which are beyond human reach. They are emanations of God's active attributes and in the Bahá'í texts they are sometimes termed, as a whole, Soul, or Self, or Identity of God.[43] These essential attributes of the world of the Kingdom express themselves, in their turn, as active attributes. Bahá'u'lláh seems to refer to this emanation of attributes from God to the world of the Kingdom, and from the world of the Kingdom to the world of creation, in the following passage: A drop of the billowing ocean of His endless mercy hath adorned all creation with the ornament of existence… ‘44 Abdu'l-Bahá describes it with such locutions as the bestowals of God’, the bounty of God', the divine bounties of the Sun of Realities’, the bestowal and grace of God',[45] Divine Mercy’.[46] He says moreover: The world of existence is an emanation of the merciful attribute of God' and the bestowal and grace of God have quickened the realm of existence with life and being.’[47]

This metaphysical reality emanating from the world of the Kingdom and enlightening the inferior degrees of existence is often termed, in the Bahá’í texts, spirit: a power conveying the divine gifts to the world of creation. Abdu'l-Bahá says that the bestowal of God, or spirit, is a divine breath which animates and pervades all things’, one power animating and dominating all things, and all things are but manifestations of its energy and bounty. The virtue of being and existence is through no other agency.'[48] He writes moreover that spirit is the power of life’,[49] the eternal `radiation of the light and heat of the Sun of Reality’…[50]

Degrees of the spirit

Spirit is one, if it is viewed in the station of the world of the Kingdom; but it specifies itself in different degrees in the inferior planes of existence, assuming different features, just as the light of the sun shines in different ways depending on the object by which it is mirrored; or as electric power appears in different ways depending on the different instruments it works. In the mineral kingdom, spirit appears as power of attraction';[51] in the vegetable kingdom it appears as power of growth’;[52] in the animal kingdom it appears as power of sense perception'.[53] In the human kingdom, says Abdu’l-Bahá, it `is given different names, according to the different conditions wherein it is manifested. Because of its relation to matter and the phenomenal world, when it governs the physical functions of the body it is called the human soul; when it manifests itself as the thinker, the comprehender, it is called the mind. And when it soars into the atmosphere of God and travels in the spiritual world, it becomes designated as spirit.’[54] In the world of the Kingdom it appears as the Most Great Spirit,55 the creative agency of the universe, which manifests itself in such universal Manifestations of God[56] as Bahá’u’lláh; as the Holy Spirit, which manifests itself in such great Manifestations of God as Moses, Christ, or Muhammad; as the spirit of faith, which manifests itself in such extraordinary men as Elijah or John the Baptist.[57]

The world of creation

The world of the Kingdom is that station where all the essential names and attributes of Divinity appear s active attributes. Since they are active attributes, they imply the existence of objects or creatures upon which they have been bestowed. Abdu'l-Bahá says: all the names and attributes of God require the existence of objects or creatures upon which they have been bestowed and in which they have become manifest’; `otherwise, they would be empty and impossible names’:[58] this object-receptacle of the bestowals of the world of the Kingdom is the world of creation.

The world of the Kingdom involves, therefore, the specification of two planes of reality: on the one hand, a sensible reality, i.e. matter; on the other hand, a metaphysical reality, i.e. spirit, which moves and directs that sensible reality. The former is a passive reality, a receptive pole; the latter is an active reality, an active pole. Therefore the world of the Kingdom is also the station where God is the creator both of the visible material world and of the invisible, metaphysical world, i.e. of spirit and matter, which in this station find their unity.

 

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Relation between the world of the Kingdom and the world of creation

Abdu'l-Bahá explains the relation between the world of the Kingdom and the world of creation through the metaphor of the sun and the earth. He writes: The Lord of the Kingdom and the Sun of Truth hath set forth a splendour and effulgence upon the world and the universe. All the contingent things found life and existence from the rays of that effulgence, entered and became manifest in the arena of being. Therefore all the objective phenomena are as surfaces of mirrors upon which the Sun of Truth hath cast the rays of the outpouring of bounty. All these surfaces (different stages of life) are mirrors reflecting the rays of the Sun of Truth. The outpouring and diversified mirrors are different from one another. Some of them are in a state of the utmost purity and clearness, reflecting the rays of the Sun of Truth, and the effulgence of the Luminary is manifested and visible in them. On the other hand, there are mirrors full of dust and therefore dark; consequently, they are deprived and bereft of any radiation.’[59] In one of His talks, He said moreover: ...the bounty of the Kingdom... is reflected in the reality of the creatures, like the light which emanates from the sun and is resplendent in creatures; and this bounty, which is the light, is reflected in infinite forms in the reality of all things, and specifies and individualizes itself according to the capacity, the worthiness and the intrinsic values of things.'[60] In one of His writings, He explains this concept through the metaphor of rain: Although the reality of Divinity is sanctified and bound-less, the aims and needs of the creatures are restricted. God’s grace is like the rain that cometh down from heaven: the water is not bounded by the limitations of form, yet on whatever place it poureth down, it taketh on limitations – dimensions, appearance, shape – according to the characteristics of that place… ‘…[61] ...[T]he bestowals of God -- He says elsewhere -- are moving and circulating throughout all created things. This illimitable divine bounty has no beginning and will have no ending. It is moving, circulating and becomes effective wherever capacity is developed to receive it.'[62] And He says also: …all creatures are favoured by the bounty of resplendency through emanation, and receive the lights, the perfection and the beauty of Its Kingdom, in the same way as all earthly creatures obtain the bounty of the light of the rays of the sun, but the sun does not descend and does not base itself to the favoured realities of earthly beings.’[63]

From these words we understand that from the world of the Kingdom two realities do emanate: on the one hand, His bestowals, i.e. spirit, and on the other, the recipients of these bestowals, i.e. material or sensible reality. Spirit emanating from the world of the Kingdom has neither beginning nor end, because it belongs to that world. It pervades all sensible reality, but is distinct from it, even as the sun which enlightens the world by its rays, but does not descend into the world in its essence.

Abdu'l-Bahá says that spirit in itself is progressive’,[64] a characteristic which is mirrored forth in the sensible world. In fact spirit moves and guides sensible reality, which – in its moving according to the guidance of the spirit – grows in its capacity to receive the gifts of that same spirit. Thus, sensible reality manifests in different degrees on its own sensible level the attributes of spirit, i.e. of the world of the Kingdom. Such a manifestation becomes more and more refined and perfect, as the creatures of the sensible world grow, by virtue of their transformations, in their capacity to receive those same gifts. Here we find in nuce the meaning and the direction of evolution.

The world of the Kingdom and the world of creation are, therefore, strictly interrelated. They belong to the same creation, inasmuch as their origin is one and the same. Nevertheless, the world of the Kingdom – which is the cause of the existence of the world of creation – is totally different from that world: a world of unity, the former; a world of multiplicity, the latter. Both the world of the Kingdom and the world of creation do exist, nevertheless, they differ from each other in degree, whereas there is no dualistic opposition between spirit and matter.

Since the spiritual world belongs to a superior level, it is higher in degree than the physical world; the physical world does really exist, though on an inferior level than the spiritual world. In this sense Bahá’u’lláh writes: The world is but a show, vain and empty, a mere nothing, bearing the semblance of reality...';[65] and Abdu’l-Bahá writes: Reality is pure spirit, it is not physical',[66] and He says moreover: Only the spirit is real; everything else is as shadow.’[67]

 

[Servant19]

Nature and the Will of God

The relation between the world of the Kingdom and the world of creation is still more precisely explained in the Bahá’í texts. Alluding to the Word of God – which, as has already been mentioned, is the same as the world of the Kingdom – Bahá’u’lláh writes: ...[it] is none but the Command of God which pervadeth all created things', and further on He states that it is not only the Cause which hath preceded the contingent world’, i.e. the creative impulse which brings into existence physical reality, but also the universal law pervading the entire creation. Therefore the Word of God is termed Nature', meaning God’s Will and its expression in and through the contingent world… a dispensation of providence ordained by the Ordainer, the All-Wise’68 or else – in Abdu'l-Bahá's words -- …those inherent properties and necessary relations derived from the realities of things’,[69] and at last `the manifestation of the divine laws and disciplines which are essential to the realities of beings… '.[70]

In other words, the world of the Kingdom creates, moves and guides the world of creation: it brings it into existence; it imparts to it the necessary impulse, so that it may move and proceed in its motion and transformations; it gives a meaning to any existing thing; it provides that logic of motion we can trace in natural laws, which are those same necessary relations derived from the realities of things' which science calls natural laws and Abdu’l-Bahá terms nature, as the will of God.

Distinctive features of the world of creation

From these premises some general distinctive features of the world of creation may be inferred:

creation `is infinite in its range and deathless in its duration... The process of His creation hath had no beginning and can have no end',[71] writes Bahá'u'lláh. Creation is out of time and continuous: otherwise, the attribute Creator would be an empty name and God would be imperfect. `Abdu'l-Bahá writes in this regard: `As to life... it has had no beginning nor will it have end. The eternal grace of God has always been the cause of life. It has had no starting and it will not approach any end.'72

`...the worlds of God are countless in their number, and infinite in their range. None can reckon or comprehend them, except God, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise'; `...the creation of God embraceth worlds beside this world; and creatures apart from these creatures',[73] writes Bahá'u'lláh. And `Abdu'l-Bahá says: `The universe hath neither beginning nor ending'; `Consider the endless phenomena of His creation. They are infinite; the universe is infinite';[74] `this universe contains many worlds of which we know nothing', and moreover: `...how is it possible to conceive that these stupendous stellar bodies are not inhabited? Verily, they are peopled, but let it be known that the dwellers accord with the elements of their respective spheres' and also: `The forms of life are infinite.'[75] And finally He writes: `Know then that the Lord God possesseth invisible realms which the human intellect can never hope to fathom nor the mind of man conceive.'76

That the universe is infinite in time, in space and in the variety of its phenomena, is a corollary of its Creator's perfection. It is impossible to conceive a time when creation was not existing as a whole: it would be tantamount to say that God is not Creator. It is also impossible to maintain that the universe is limited: if such was the case, what does exist beyond its borders? Finally, this universe cannot but contain an infinite number of phenomena, otherwise it would be finite. Therefore, the `original matter' is eternal and infinite, nevertheless it is subordinated to God Who is its Creator, and to the world of the Kingdom which moves and guides it.

 

[Servant19]

(cont…)

Abdu'l-Bahá expounds these same concepts through a different logical argument: absolute nonexistence cannot become existence’ or else absolute nothingness cannot find existence, as it has not the capacity of existence.'[77] Therefore that which exists has always been in existence, though in a different shape.[78] In other words we could say: nothing is created, nothing is destroyed, everything changes’, which is a well known scientific principle.[79]

Bahá'u'lláh writes: `...each and every created thing hath, according to a fixed degree, been endowed with the capacity to exercise a particular influence, and been made to possess a distinct virtue.'[80] Thence, `Abdu'l-Bahá explains that the universe is a world of `absolute order and perfection';[81] `in the possible world there is nothing more wonderful than that which already exists... the universe has no imperfection.'[82]

The perfection of the Creator is reflected in the perfection of the universe: in Bahá'u'lláh's words, His `image is reflected in the mirror of the entire creation'. In its own degree and as a whole, the universe is perfect and perfect is also each created thing, as long as it is `viewed in the light of the station it has been ordained to occupy'.[83] Therefore, nothing whatsoever in existence is evil,[84] since every created thing has its own place and meaning in the `creative plan of God'.[85] Nevertheless, `Abdu'l-Bahá explains, `this material world of ours is a world of contrast... It is all the time changing... ',[86] therefore the universe is also a realm of imperfection, an imperfection which becomes manifest when the various degrees of existence are compared with one another: this is the reason why we find throughout the universe `...contradictions... opposites'.[87] Though its qualities are good and perfect in themselves and in view of their intended purpose, nevertheless they are not perfect, when they are compared to other qualities. `Consider the effect of poison,' writes Bahá'u'lláh, `Deadly though it is, it possesseth the power of exerting, under certain conditions, a beneficial influence.'[88] A further example: the law of the struggle for existence is good in the world of nature, but it is blameworthy in human society. Therefore `Abdu'l-Bahá pronounces an apparently contradictory statement: `nature seems perfect, it is nevertheless imperfect, because it has need of intelligence and education.'[89] This imperfection of nature is in comparison to a relatively greater perfection of human beings.

`...the divine and the contingent perfections are unlimited', says `Abdu'l-Bahá; therefore you cannot find a being so perfect that you cannot imagine a superior one.' In fact, `if it were possible to reach a limit of perfection, then one of the realities of the beings might reach the condition of being independent from God, and the contingent might attain to the condition of the absolute. But for every being there is a point which it cannot overpass... '.[90]

 

[Servant19]

`All parts of the creational world are part of one whole',[91] a `vast machinery of omnipresent power',[92] `one laboratory of might', `The organization of God is one; the evolution of existence is one; the divine system is one.'[93]

The Creator is the Unifier of the infinite universe He Himself has created. He established in His universe one Law -- His Command acting through the agency of the spirit -- therefore the universe can be viewed as a great laboratory, whose working criteria are everywhere the same.

The concept of the unity of the laws of the universe is upheld also by many modern scientists and has found a scientific formulation in the cosmological principle, which says: There is in nature a fundamental unity or uniformity, wherefore (with the exception of certain peculiar situations, which are limited in time and space) the universe is everywhere the same; indeed the natural laws governing the fundamental phenomena appearing throughout the universe, as well as the atomic and sub-atomic structure of matter, are uniform.[94]

`all things are involved in all things',[95] says `Abdu'l-Bahá. This concept will be better understood in the light of the atomic conception expounded by `Abdu'l-Bahá, which will be de-scribed in the following pages. Suffice to say here that, in `Abdu'l-Bahá's words, `Fundamentally all existing things pass through the same degrees and phases of development, and any given phenomenon embodies all others.'95 He says that the world of creation is a uniform and organic reality -- `reality is one and cannot admit of multiplicity',[96] He writes -- whose components, parts of the same organism, obey the same laws and are strictly interrelated, so that any change in any of their parts influences the whole and viceversa. In other words, `All the visible material events are inter-related with invisible spiritual forces. The infinite phenomena of creation are as interdependent as the links of a chain.'[97] He writes moreover: `...every part of the universe is connected with every other part by ties that are very powerful and admit of no imbalance, no slackening whatever.'[98]

This interdependence of phenomena appears with strong evidence in the ecological equilibrium prevailing on the earth, to which `Abdu'l-Bahá refers in the following words: `...all created things are closely related together and each is influenced by the other or deriveth benefit therefrom, either directly or indirectly.

`Consider for instance how one group of created things constituteth the vegetable kingdom, and another the animal kingdom. Each of these two maketh use of certain elements in the air on which its own life dependeth, while each increaseth the quantity of such elements as are essential for the life of the other. In other words, the growth and development of the vegetable world is impossible without the existence of the animal kingdom, and the maintenance of animal life is inconceivable without the co-operation of the vegetable kingdom. Of like kind are the relationships that exist among all created things. Hence it was stated that co-operation and reciprocity are essential properties which are inherent in the unified system of the world of existence, and without which the entire creation would be reduced to nothingness.'[99]

And elsewhere He writes on the same theme: `In the physical realm of creation, all things are eaters and eaten: the plant drinketh in the mineral, the animal doth crop and swallow down the plant, man doth feed upon the animal, and the mineral devoureth the body of man. Physical bodies are transferred past one barrier after another, from one life to another, and all things are subject to transformation and change...

`Whensoever thou dost examine, through a microscope, the water man drinketh, the air he doth breathe, thou wilt see that with every breath of air, man taketh in an abundance of animal life, and with every draught of water, he also swalloweth down a great variety of animals. How could it ever be possible to put a stop to this process? For all creatures are eaters and eaten, and the very fabric of life is reared upon this fact. Were it not so, the ties that interlace all created things within the universe would be unravelled.'100 And elsewhere He says on the same subject: `If it were not so, in the universal system and the general arrangement of existence, there would be disorder and imperfection.'[101]

 

[Servant19]

The worlds of God are in perfect harmony and correspondence one with another. Each world in this limitless universe is, as it were, a mirror reflecting the history and nature of all the rest. The physical universe is, likewise, in perfect correspondence with the spiritual or divine realm. The world of matter is an outer expression or facsimile of the inner kingdom of the spirit,'[102] says Abdu’l-Bahá. Matter takes on manifold shapes, guided in its transformation by the Command of God which is present in it: therefore, it cannot but mirror forth its qualities, though on a different level.[103] We could wrongly see in these concepts a new formulation of the Platonic concept of the world of Ideas and of the material world. But whereas Plato’s conception may suggest a dualism between spirit and matter, there is no dualism in the Bahá’í texts. The physical world (the world of creation) reflects the metaphysical world (the world of the Kingdom) in different degrees, according to the capacities matter has acquired in its continuous transformations, induced and guided by spirit emanating from the world of the Kingdom. The world of the Kingdom and the world of creation have their existence on different levels, but both of them are real. The world of creation reflects on its own plane the qualities of the world of the spirit, expressing them according to its capacities. There-fore, as Bahá’u’lláh writes, Every created thing in the whole universe is but a door leading into His knowledge, a sign of His sovereignty, a revelation of His names... ';[104] and Abdu’l-Bahá urges us to search out, throughout the sensible universe, the traces of the indwelling spirit'.[105] Nevertheless, when it is compared to the world of the Kingdom, the world is but a show, vain and empty.'106

`...the whole attracteth the part, and in the circle, the centre is the pivot of the compasses,' writes `Abdu'l-Bahá.. This is the expression in the world of creation of another universal law, i.e. one of the laws of love: `...any movement animated by love moveth from the periphery to the centre, from space to the Day-Star of the universe..'[107]

`The sign of singleness is visible and apparent in all things,' says `Abdu'l-Bahá; and moreover: `As the proof of uniqueness exists in all things, and the Oneness and Unity of God is apparent in the reality of all things, the repetition of the same appearance is absolutely impossible.'[108]

In this infinite universe, whose phenomena are infinite, the variety of beings is also infinite; therefore, as an earthly sign of the Divine Oneness and Unity manifest in all things, `there are no repetitions in nature': every individual is itself and, as such, unique.[109]

`The world of existence is progressive,' says `Abdu'l-Bahá, and `is dependent for its progress on reformation', a reformation that, `Abdu'l-Bahá says, is an educational process: `the world of nature is incomplete and imperfect until awakened and illumined by the light and stimulus of education,' and moreover: `the world of nature is inherently defective in cause and outcome... the defects therein must be removed by education.'[110]

`...change is a necessary quality and an essential at-tribute of this world, of time and place.'[111]

From the Bahá’í texts the world of creation appears as a reality which – eternal, infinite and perfect as a whole, and in its individual components, provided they are viewed in their own degree – is subject to one unifying law, according to which all realities are strictly interrelated, so that a marvellous harmony and correspondence exist among them. This law is the law of evolution: the change brought into the world of creation by the power of spirit, which transforms creatures bringing them to ever higher levels of perfection, and which is in that respect an educational process.

The spirit is the true reality of the world of creation: what we see and understand of this world is but `images reflected in water’[112] of the superior reality of the world of the Kingdom. Such is the reality through which we shall be satisfied: those same traces of God in the universe which Bahá’í scholars or would-be philosophers should search and may discover

 

[Servant19]

Sorry,…

I made a mistake posting all that…too long…

I was rushed and again I apologize…

.

 

[Servant19]

I guess a summary of what you may be looking for Gary is found in this passage from the book:

" Bahá’u’lláh writes: His name, the Creator, presupposes a creation'; and moreover: The one true God hath everlastingly existed, and will everlastingly continue to exist. His creation, likewise, has no beginning, and will have no end.‘38 And Abdu'l-Bahá explains: …just as the reality of Divinity never had a beginning – that is, God hath ever been a Creator… – so there hath never been a time when the attributes of God have not had an expression’…[39] Therefore God is both preexistent and uncreated, whereas the world of the Kingdom is preexistent, but created."

.

 

[Augustine3]

If someone says to me that the Quran is false doctrine, then I would expect him to bring the proof for his statement.
.

With all respect Katie the scripture can easily refute the Quran.
*
But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! - Galatians 1:8*

I don’t want to debate you, I just wanted to show you the obvious i.e.the angel Gabriel preached a gospel contrary to what the apostles preached. Hence the Quran is not the word of God (no disrespect intended).

 

[Servant19]

With all respect Katie the scripture can easily refute the Quran.
*
But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to what we have preached to you, he is to be accursed! - Galatians 1:8*

I don’t want to debate you, I just wanted to show you the obvious i.e.the angel Gabriel preached a gospel contrary to what the apostles preached. Hence the Quran is not the word of God (no disrespect intended).

The Old Testament is also a good source of refutation

(especially if we are all wearing our “refutation glasses”, rather than our “unification glasses”)

.

 

[Augustine3]

The Old Testament is also a good source of refutation

(especially if we are all wearing our “refutation glasses”, rather than our “unification glasses”)

.

Indeed, the Old Testament is a good source of refutation when read in context

 

[GaryTaylor]

Who told you ? The founders of your religion?

Excellent question to think about, and for everyone.

 

[Eric_Hilbert]

Remain on the topic of the OP

 

[Servant19]

Remain on the topic of the OP

My apologies to the the thread participants. This message from Eric was directed at me predominantly.

Gary Taylor and Vouthon, if you wish to explore the nature of creation and its origins, please start another thread, and I will be happy to explore it with you and anyone interested

Apologies again…

.

 

[ephesians2]

Have you read the OPs question? Because your “answer” doesn’t even address the actual question.

Well, it does answer the question actually.

My answer according to Christ is - “No.”

 

[ephesians2]

No they do not, if they did they would be Christian.

Colossians 2:8,9 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ. For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.

The question was also raised about Jews. The answer to that is more complex, some do worship the same God as us most don’t. Of all the NT writers only one (Luke) was a gentile, even Peter was a Jew.

A Jew can remain a Jew after confessing Christ, a Muslim can not.

DING! DING! DING! DING!

(Agreed)

 

[Vouthon]

My apologies to the the thread participants. This message from Eric was directed at me predominantly.

Gary Taylor and Vouthon, if you wish to explore the nature of creation and its origins, please start another thread, and I will be happy to explore it with you and anyone interested

Apologies again…

.

No, I would say the fault is more with me friend I replied back to Gary’s question, so I take full responsibility for diverting the thread. Will not happen again. As stated, if Gary would like to pursue this topic further on another thread, I would be very happy to oblige.