Do Muslims and Catholics worship the same God?

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IgnatianPhilo asked on another post, “You have yet to respond to this servant, though out of all the most bizarre things you have said in this thread, amongst them was that you think it is okay to worship a bull so long as one is sincere.”

I ask you, If “one” were to worship a bull but call this bull the “God of Abraham Who created ALL”, would this “one” be worshipping the same God as Catholics?
Your oversimplification of Islam only proves that you do not understand the subject at hand.
 
Your oversimplification of Islam only proves that you do not understand the subject at hand.
This is not an answer to the simple question that I asked, it is merely an avoidance, could you answer the question, which is: If “one” were to worship a bull but call this bull the “God of Abraham Who created ALL”, would this “one” be worshipping the same God as Catholics?

Either Jesus Is God-Incarnate or He isn’t, is this what you meant by my “oversimplification of Islam”?

Could be one of the reasons why God said, “I will send the simple to confound the wise”.
 
Either Jesus Is God-Incarnate or He isn’t, is this what you meant by my “oversimplification of Islam”?
The question is not about the Incarnation.

You still do not understand the question, yet you persist in trying to answer it.
 
This is not an answer to the simple question that I asked, it is merely an avoidance, could you answer the question, which is: If “one” were to worship a bull but call this bull the “God of Abraham Who created ALL”, would this “one” be worshipping the same God as Catholics?

Either Jesus Is God-Incarnate or He isn’t, is this what you meant by my “oversimplification of Islam”?

Could be one of the reasons why God said, “I will send the simple to confound the wise”.
Based on the above you would have to conclude that Jews haven’t worshiped God since the Crucifixion. Not only do Jews not view Christ as God-Incarnate, they don’t even view him as a prophet like the Muslims do. Apparently a faith created 600+ years after Christ’s death is more correct than the faith Christ was born into.
 
Person 1: in his mind worships a bull, calls the bull the God of Abraham, loves his fellow human beings, is kind, thinks well of them, serves God through his actions.

Person 2: in his mind worships God through His Son Jesus Christ, looks down on many of his fellow human beings, finds faults with them, is too busy with self-centeredness to genuinely serve God,

Which, Person 1 or Person 2 is ACTUALLY worshiping God? The one with a mistaken intellectual concept who lives with his heart in Christ’s love, or the one with a more correct intellectual concept who fails to live with his heart in Christ’s love?
Your above is correct to an extent. However, since the official teachings of the Church places Muslims (as well as Jews and other Christians) separate from other religions we Catholics would have to believe that there is more involved than the idea that one can worship God without knowing you are really worshipping God (example from Scriptures being the “unknown god” of the pagan Greeks).

While not an expert, I would guess that the reason Muslims are dealt with separately than everyone else (all the non-Christian, non-Jewish faiths) is that Islam has as it’s basis the core teachings of Judaism and Christianity. If your example was the basis for what the Church has taught in regards to Islam, than it would also apply to Zoroastrianism and your faith. As I understand it, said teachings about Islam don’t apply to either of those faiths.
 
I ask you, If “one” were to worship a bull but call this bull the “God of Abraham Who created ALL”, would this “one” be worshipping the same God as Catholics?
No. Catholics would not say that this person who worships a bull and calls this bull the God of Abraham the same God as Catholics. :nope:
 
Old catholic guy,

Are Muslims equated with Jews, above Jews, or just below Jews? Are Mormons included as “Protestants”? And who is included as “Muslim”? Anyone that prays to Mecca or anyone that in encompassed by Islamic culture? Or Just. Sunni Muslims? Are Shia excluded? Or maybe anyone that believes in Quran as word of God? Or anyone that uses “Allah” as God? Or is it “muslims” with a lower case M that means “submitter to God”? Even Bahai writings use the word “muslim” with lower case m
 
You have yet to respond to this servant, though out of all the most bizarre things you have said in this thread, amongst them was that you think it is okay to worship a bull so long as one is sincere.
If, 6000 years ago, a man comes up to me and performs countless miracles, shows me the essence of love and reveals the Word of God and I fall in love with Him and He becomes my Beloved, and He tells us that He is from God, and that God is only the one to worship, and that this bull is a reminder of His love, and that I should worship this bull to remind myself of Gods love for me and my people, I WILL WORSHIP THAT BULL 🙂

Today, I worship God through my devotion to the Father, Baha’u’llah

🙂

.
 
Seems as if one but not both might know what they are talking about, is that the point?

If you dove off than the “One person” would be right, if you did not than the “Another person” would be right, kind of like if Jesus is God-Incarnate than the bible would be correct concerning this and if Jesus is not God-Incarnate than the koran would be correct concerning this, is the point that you are talking about that either the bible or the koran could be correct but not both?
First of all sir, YES 🙂 that is absolutely correct.

Secondly, the Bible doesn’t say that Jesus is God-Incarnate…

.
 
Old catholic guy,

Are Muslims equated with Jews, above Jews, or just below Jews? Are Mormons included as “Protestants”? And who is included as “Muslim”? Anyone that prays to Mecca or anyone that in encompassed by Islamic culture? Or Just. Sunni Muslims? Are Shia excluded? Or maybe anyone that believes in Quran as word of God? Or anyone that uses “Allah” as God? Or is it “muslims” with a lower case M that means “submitter to God”? Even Bahai writings use the word “muslim” with lower case m
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a9p3.htm
The Church and non-Christians

839 "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."325
The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,326 "the first to hear the Word of God."327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God’s revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews “belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ”,328 "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."329
840 And when one considers the future, God’s People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.
841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day."330
842 The Church’s bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race:
All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . .331
843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."332
844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:
Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.333
845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son’s Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is “the world reconciled.” She is that bark which “in the full sail of the Lord’s cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world.” According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah’s ark, which alone saves from the flood.334

My understanding of the above is that Judaism is “ranked” above Islam in regards to being the most truthful (here the term is being used as describing how close to the truth a faith is; like saying 1.1 is more truthful than 2 when describing 1) and in regards to being divinely inspired (Judaism is, Islam is not). I believe that Islam is separated from the other non-Christian, non-Jewish faiths because it contains the core teachings and a more truthful (see above in regards to the term) though still flawed understanding of God. As for who the Church views as being Muslim, I would assume the Church is referring to those who adhere to orthodox Islam (the only way to clearly answer this would be to find a further explanation of relevant portion of the CCC). I do not believe the usage of the term “Muslim” in the CCC is referring to the Bahai faith.

As for Mormons, I do not believe that the Church considers them Christian, but since I have no real interest in Mormonism or Protestantism as a whole I’m not very versed on this.
 
Your above is correct to an extent. However, since the official teachings of the Church places Muslims (as well as Jews and other Christians) separate from other religions we Catholics would have to believe that there is more involved than the idea that one can worship God without knowing you are really worshipping God (example from Scriptures being the “unknown god” of the pagan Greeks).

While not an expert, I would guess that the reason Muslims are dealt with separately than everyone else (all the non-Christian, non-Jewish faiths) is that Islam has as it’s basis the core teachings of Judaism and Christianity. If your example was the basis for what the Church has taught in regards to Islam, than it would also apply to Zoroastrianism and your faith. As I understand it, said teachings about Islam don’t apply to either of those faiths.
Doesn’t the Catechism of the Catholic Church also mention people who sincerely worship G-d in their heart, those who may not worship the G-d of Abraham, such as Hindus, who nonetheless also, through the mystery of G-d, belong to the family of the one G-d? I may be wrong but somewhere I recall hearing about this in the Catechism.
 
Doesn’t the Catechism of the Catholic Church also mention people who sincerely worship G-d in their heart, those who may not worship the G-d of Abraham, such as Hindus, who nonetheless also, through the mystery of G-d, belong to the family of the one G-d? I may be wrong but somewhere I recall hearing about this in the Catechism.
Yes. I believe the Church’s teachings on this is similar to what Judaism teaches in regards to non-Jews (my knowledge of Judaism is sadly limited so I’m doing some educated guessing here based on foundational role Judaism has in Christian theology). A Hindu could very well be worshipping God unknowingly through his worship of a god. I believe the difference between a Muslim knowingly worshipping God and a Hindu unknowingly is due to the Jewish and Christian foundation of Islam and its understanding of God.
 
Doesn’t the Catechism of the Catholic Church also mention people who sincerely worship G-d in their heart, those who may not worship the G-d of Abraham, such as Hindus, who nonetheless also, through the mystery of G-d, belong to the family of the one G-d? I may be wrong but somewhere I recall hearing about this in the Catechism.
Yes, I’ll quote it from a more authoritative source than the Catechism, which merely references Lumen Gentium (dogmatic constitution on the church from Vatican II) in this instance:
Nor is God far distant from those who in shadows and images seek the unknown God, for it is He who gives to all men life and breath and all things,(127) and as Saviour wills that all men be saved.(128) Those also can attain to salvation who through no fault of their own do not know the Gospel of Christ or His Church, yet sincerely seek God and moved by grace strive by their deeds to do His will as it is known to them through the dictates of conscience.(19*) Nor does Divine Providence deny the helps necessary for salvation to those who, without blame on their part, have not yet arrived at an explicit knowledge of God and with His grace strive to live a good life. Whatever good or truth is found amongst them is looked upon by the Church as a preparation for the Gospel.(20*) She knows that it is given by Him who enlightens all men so that they may finally have life
This is in paragraph 16 of the document: vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

It affirms, firstly, that God does not remove his grace or benevolent love from those who seek him in “shadows and images”, that is people who do not have a clear perception of His existence or Nature. It then goes on to explicitly state that those who have not yet arrived at an “explicit knowledge of God” can be saved, so long as it is without blame on their part.

Hinduism actually gets a lengthy mention in Nostra Aetate (the declaration of Vatican II on non-Christian religions).

The most relevant section of that document for our discussion is this part:
  1. From ancient times down to the present, there is found among various peoples a certain perception of that hidden power which hovers over the course of things and over the events of human history; at times some indeed have come to the recognition of a Supreme Being, or even of a Father. This perception and recognition penetrates their lives with a profound religious sense.
vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decl_19651028_nostra-aetate_en.html

For some people they will remain at the stage of recognizing the existence of a “hidden power”, some mysterious force or divine agent - whether a group of gods or a more nebulous concept such as “fate” or “destiny” - which “hovers over the course of things”.

This perspective actually has solid basis in the Bible, in St. Paul’s discussion with the Athenian Stoic and Epicurean pagans in the Areopagus, in Acts 17:
“…While Paul was waiting for them in Athens…some Epicurean and Stoic philosophers debated with him. Some said, “What does this babbler want to say?” Others said, “He seems to be a proclaimer of foreign divinities.” (This was because he was telling the good news about Jesus and the resurrection.) So they took him and brought him to the Areopagus and asked him, “May we know what this new teaching is that you are presenting? It sounds rather strange to us, so we would like to know what it means.” Now all the Athenians and the foreigners living there would spend their time in nothing but telling or hearing something new. Then Paul stood in front of the Areopagus and said, "Athenians, I see how extremely religious you are in every way. For as I passed along and observed the objects of your worship, I found also an altar with this inscription, ‘To the unknown god.’ What therefore you worship as unknown, this I proclaim to you. The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands; nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things; and He made from one blood every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, so that they would search for God and perhaps grope for him and find him - though indeed he is not far from each one of us. For ‘In him we live and move and have our being’; as even some of your own poets have said, ‘For we too are his offspring.’ Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man…”
As you can see, these idol-worshipping, polytheistic pagans who were cognizant of an “unknown God”, some inexpressible force or entity they felt existed but did not understand, were shown by St. Paul to be worshipping the true God, only that they did not know Him. Their heart was therefore in the right place, they had good will but were ignorant of the truth. Such people, whether they be polytheists or atheists, can be saved so long as they are truly of good will and invincibly ignorant.

Hence why in the deuterocanonical Book of Wisdom 13 it is stated:
[6] Yet these men are little to be blamed,
for perhaps they go astray
while seeking God and desiring to find him.
[7] For as they live among his works they keep searching,
and they trust in what they see, because the
things that are seen are beautiful
.
 
Oh, I forgot to reference this verse from the Tanakh:
“…For from the rising of the sun even unto the going down of the same my name is great among the Gentiles; and in every place incense is offered unto my name, and a pure offering: for my name is great among the Gentiles, saith the LORD of hosts…”
***- Malachi 1:11 ***
The prophet Malachi implies here that God’s name is revered among the many pagan nations, who, while not possessing the revelation of God to the Jews, are still worshipping Adonai, even if unknowingly so.
 
Yes, I’ll quote it from a more authoritative source than the Catechism, which merely references Lumen Gentium (dogmatic constitution on the church from Vatican II) in this instance:

This is in paragraph 16 of the document: vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_const_19641121_lumen-gentium_en.html

It affirms, firstly, that God does not remove his grace or benevolent love from those who seek him in “shadows and images”, that is people who do not have a clear perception of His existence or Nature. It then goes on to explicitly state that those who have not yet arrived at an “explicit knowledge of God” can be saved, so long as it is without blame on their part.

Hinduism actually gets a lengthy mention in Nostra Aetate (the declaration of Vatican II on non-Christian religions).

The most relevant section of that document for our discussion is this part:

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decl_19651028_nostra-aetate_en.html

For some people they will remain at the stage of recognizing the existence of a “hidden power”, some mysterious force or divine agent - whether a group of gods or a more nebulous concept such as “fate” or “destiny” - which “hovers over the course of things”.

This perspective actually has solid basis in the Bible, in St. Paul’s discussion with the Athenian Stoic and Epicurean pagans in the Areopagus, in Acts 17:

As you can see, these idol-worshipping, polytheistic pagans who were cognizant of an “unknown God”, some inexpressible force or entity they felt existed but did not understand, were shown by St. Paul to be worshipping the true God, only that they did not know Him. Their heart was therefore in the right place, they had good will but were ignorant of the truth. Such people, whether they be polytheists or atheists, can be saved so long as they are truly of good will and invincibly ignorant.

Hence why in the deuterocanonical Book of Wisdom 13 it is stated:
Thank you so much, Vouthon, for this detailed and pertinent information.
 
I didn’t know this. Thank you.
Then, I am glad to be of assistance! 😃 Here is the relevant paragraph:

vatican.va/archive/hist_councils/ii_vatican_council/documents/vat-ii_decl_19651028_nostra-aetate_en.html
**Religions, however, that are bound up with an advanced culture have struggled to answer the same questions by means of more refined concepts and a more developed language. Thus in Hinduism, men contemplate the divine mystery and express it through an inexhaustible abundance of myths and through searching philosophical inquiry. They seek freedom from the anguish of our human condition either through ascetical practices or profound meditation or a flight to God with love and trust. ** Again, Buddhism, in its various forms, realizes the radical insufficiency of this changeable world; it teaches a way by which men, in a devout and confident spirit, may be able either to acquire the state of perfect liberation, or attain, by their own efforts or through higher help, supreme illumination. Likewise, other religions found everywhere try to counter the restlessness of the human heart, each in its own manner, by proposing “ways,” comprising teachings, rules of life, and sacred rites. The Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true and holy in these religions. She regards with sincere reverence those ways of conduct and of life, those precepts and teachings which, though differing in many aspects from the ones she holds and sets forth, nonetheless often reflect a ray of that Truth which enlightens all men. Indeed, she proclaims, and ever must proclaim Christ “the way, the truth, and the life” (John 14:6), in whom men may find the fullness of religious life, in whom God has reconciled all things to Himself.(4)
 
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p123a9p3.htm
The Church and non-Christians

839 "Those who have not yet received the Gospel are related to the People of God in various ways."325
The relationship of the Church with the Jewish People. When she delves into her own mystery, the Church, the People of God in the New Covenant, discovers her link with the Jewish People,326 "the first to hear the Word of God."327 The Jewish faith, unlike other non-Christian religions, is already a response to God’s revelation in the Old Covenant. To the Jews “belong the sonship, the glory, the covenants, the giving of the law, the worship, and the promises; to them belong the patriarchs, and of their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ”,328 "for the gifts and the call of God are irrevocable."329
840 And when one considers the future, God’s People of the Old Covenant and the new People of God tend towards similar goals: expectation of the coming (or the return) of the Messiah. But one awaits the return of the Messiah who died and rose from the dead and is recognized as Lord and Son of God; the other awaits the coming of a Messiah, whose features remain hidden till the end of time; and the latter waiting is accompanied by the drama of not knowing or of misunderstanding Christ Jesus.
841 The Church’s relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind’s judge on the last day."330
842 The Church’s bond with non-Christian religions is in the first place the common origin and end of the human race:
All nations form but one community. This is so because all stem from the one stock which God created to people the entire earth, and also because all share a common destiny, namely God. His providence, evident goodness, and saving designs extend to all against the day when the elect are gathered together in the holy city. . .331
843 The Catholic Church recognizes in other religions that search, among shadows and images, for the God who is unknown yet near since he gives life and breath and all things and wants all men to be saved. Thus, the Church considers all goodness and truth found in these religions as "a preparation for the Gospel and given by him who enlightens all men that they may at length have life."332
844 In their religious behavior, however, men also display the limits and errors that disfigure the image of God in them:
Very often, deceived by the Evil One, men have become vain in their reasonings, and have exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and served the creature rather than the Creator. Or else, living and dying in this world without God, they are exposed to ultimate despair.333
845 To reunite all his children, scattered and led astray by sin, the Father willed to call the whole of humanity together into his Son’s Church. The Church is the place where humanity must rediscover its unity and salvation. The Church is “the world reconciled.” She is that bark which “in the full sail of the Lord’s cross, by the breath of the Holy Spirit, navigates safely in this world.” According to another image dear to the Church Fathers, she is prefigured by Noah’s ark, which alone saves from the flood.334

My understanding of the above is that Judaism is “ranked” above Islam in regards to being the most truthful (here the term is being used as describing how close to the truth a faith is; like saying 1.1 is more truthful than 2 when describing 1) and in regards to being divinely inspired (Judaism is, Islam is not). I believe that Islam is separated from the other non-Christian, non-Jewish faiths because it contains the core teachings and a more truthful (see above in regards to the term) though still flawed understanding of God. As for who the Church views as being Muslim, I would assume the Church is referring to those who adhere to orthodox Islam (the only way to clearly answer this would be to find a further explanation of relevant portion of the CCC). I do not believe the usage of the term “Muslim” in the CCC is referring to the Bahai faith.

As for Mormons, I do not believe that the Church considers them Christian, but since I have no real interest in Mormonism or Protestantism as a whole I’m not very versed on this.
This part of the CCC is quite significant to the OP. Thank you, oldcatholicguy.
 
Oh, I forgot to reference this verse from the Tanakh:

The prophet Malachi implies here that God’s name is revered among the many pagan nations, who, while not possessing the revelation of God to the Jews, are still worshipping Adonai, even if unknowingly so.
Brother, your inbox is full…

.
 
Survey In Soteriology

Hello, I am a graduate student of theology and I’m producing a qualitative research paper in soteriology (study of religious doctrines of salvation). In adding to my research, I have produced a survey consisting of a series of unbiased and simple questions. This survey will not be a comparison of soteriology between various denominations, rather, the goal will be to obtain information on different individual beliefs of salvation within individual denominations. In this survey I will not ask for any names or personal information. However, I will ask some general questions about your faith and location by which anyone taking this survey is not required to answer. This survey will strive not to ask leading questions, nor will the survey be used as a platform to prosthelytize or argue any particular theology. This survey will not be used to embarrass or will single out any individuals responding to the survey as the collective results and analysis, not the data itself, will be published within the research. Please feel free to respond to this survey over open forum or email your responses to me. I thank you for your time and honesty. I believe this survey will help greatly in guiding the path of my research. God Bless

Instructions: Please write the answer (a-d) near each question of the survey. Thank you for your time.
Part I: Questions About You
  1. _____ What is your denomination?

    a. Catholic

    b. Protestant

    c. Evangelical

    d. Other
  2. ____ How often do you read the Bible?

    a. Frequently (daily to weekly)

    b. Often (weekly to monthly)

    c. Sometimes (monthly to only on special occasions)

    d. Never
  3. ____ Please Rate the knowledge of your faith

    a. Teacher or Elder

    b. Good understanding

    c. Little understanding

    d. No understanding
Part II: Questions of Faith
  1. ____ Does God Exist?
    a. Yes

    b. No

    c. Maybe

    d. I don’t know
  2. ____ Is Jesus Christ the Son of God?
    a. Yes

    b. No

    c. Maybe

    d. I don’t know
  3. ____ Is Jesus Christ a requirement for salvation?
    a. Yes

    b. No

    c. Maybe

    d. I don’t know
  4. ____ Is Jesus Christ the only requirement for salvation?
    a. Yes

    b. No

    c. Maybe

    d. I don’t know
  5. ____ Does heaven exist?
    a. Yes

    b. No

    c. Maybe

    d. I don’t know
  6. ____ If yes, is heaven a permanent destination?
    a. Yes

    b. No

    c. Maybe

    d. I don’t know
  7. ____ Does hell exist?
    a. Yes

    b. No

    c. Maybe

    d. I don’t know
  8. ____ If yes, is hell a permanent destination?
    a. Yes

    b. No

    c. Maybe

    d. I don’t know
  9. ____ Is salvation possible for those of a faith other than your own?
    a. Yes

    b. No

    c. Maybe

    d. I don’t know
  10. ____ Is salvation possible for those of a non-Christian faith?
    a. Yes

    b. No

    c. Maybe

    d. I don’t know
  11. ____ Is salvation possible for those of no faith?
    a. Yes

    b. No

    c. Maybe

    d. I don’t know
 
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