Do Muslims and Catholics worship the same God?

[Servant19]

I am a Baha’i, and I think it is perfectly OK for you to worship God through Jesus Christ!

God judges by who is doing His will, not by which religious affiliation we carry.

So…MAYBE…its not the name (Jesus, Moses, Baha’u’llah)…

…its recognition of the “eternal Logos” that they represent…

I wonder if that might be Truth?

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

No, its not okay, from my understanding of Baha’u’llah’s quote above

I’m human and I didn’t know exactly what you were looking for…

I don’t espouse the attribute of “anger” onto God. Anger is an imperfection, God is perfect.

Worshipping a Bull, with Moses talking about the opposite down the road is not good, not good at all…

.

Yet God’s anger and wrath are clearly displayed in the bible and must mean something. It cannot mean nothing, and it cannot mean anything positive if we are merely to read it as projections on to God. God destroyed many in the Old testament and even in the New testament he killed a husband and wife who sold their property and did not hand all the money over to the apostles.

Now my main question is this, it is something you have avoided for twenty or so pages without shame: Was God right to punish them? Were they able to validly worship the calf? These are simple questions which you just will not answer. You have said its not good; well lying’s not good but we reckon worship to false Gods as worse than merely lying.

 

[Servant19]

I have been told by Baha’is, longstanding, such as Arthra in the past that the Kitab-i-Aqdas and its teachings are binding only on Baha’is and that therefore this “first duty” is enjoined only on people who have declared for Baha’u’llah, not those who have not come to an awareness of his station.

Brother, there are components of the Aqdas which are not fully binding on all Baha’is as yet.

However, what you say does not make sense, because Baha’is have already recognised the “Fountain of His Laws”

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[Bahaitruth]

Servant,

Abdu’lBaha was asked what this first verse of the Kitab-I-Aqdas is about. His answer was striking in that He answered it as if the question was about God not the Manifestation. see “Some Answered Questions”. I find this response highly striking. I have had Muslims throw AbdulBaha’s explanation in my face as a proof of who He really thought Bahaullah was.

Therefore this seems to be consistent with what Vouthon just said.

 

[Servant19]

Yet God’s anger and wrath are clearly displayed in the bible and must mean something. It cannot mean nothing, and it cannot mean anything positive if we are merely to read it as projections on to God. God destroyed many in the Old testament and even in the New testament he killed a husband and wife who sold their property and did not hand all the money over to the apostles.

Now my main question is this, it is something you have avoided for twenty or so pages without shame: Was God right to punish them? Were they able to validly worship the calf? These are simple questions which you just will not answer. You have said its not good; well lying’s not good but we reckon worship to false Gods as worse than merely lying.

During the times of Moses, “human” attributes were assigned to God so that it may foster better understanding of the attributes of God and encourage adherence to His laws and to recognise the twin pillars of reward and punishment.

It is not valid to worship a “calf” when Moses is saying the opposite.

I feel I’m repeating myself.

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[Vouthon]

Brother, there are components of the Aqdas which are not fully binding on all Baha’is as yet.

However, what you say does not make sense, because Baha’is have already recognised the “Fountain of His Laws”

.

It is not I who say this, though I a merely repeating what was told to me when I posed this very question before to other Baha’is.

I am working from memory, nonetheless I have found one of the threads in question from Baha’i Forums:

bahaiforums.com/general-discussion/3268-few-questions-im-relatively-new.html

Arthra, who is a Baha’i and a longstanding member of CAF, replied in post 3 of this thread:

Your second question:

The first page of the Kitáb-i-Aqdas. I find it really hard to accept that while someone could be the author of a thousand good deeds, that it is considered in vain if they don’t accept the latest Manifestation. I have trouble accepting this because of all my really, really nice Atheist friends. Does that mean they will just fail in the next life?

The Aqdas was addressed to believers… Baha’is. The laws of the Aqdas apply to Baha’is… Many of the laws are not even enforced as yet and cannot be until there will be large Baha’i societies in the future…

But lets look at the quote. It’s always good to actually quote the Writings because then we are not including our own predisposed ideas…

So here are the opening verses:

The first duty prescribed by God for His servants is
the recognition of Him Who is the Dayspring of
His Revelation and the Fountain of His laws, Who
representeth the Godhead in both the Kingdom of His
Cause and the world of creation. Whoso achieveth this
duty hath attained unto all good; and whoso is deprived
thereof hath gone astray, though he be the author of
every righteous deed.

It behoveth every one who
reacheth this most sublime station, this summit of
transcendent glory, to observe every ordinance of Him
Who is the Desire of the world.

These twin duties are
inseparable.

Neither is acceptable without the other.
Thus hath it been decreed by Him Who is the Source of
Divine inspiration.

~ Baha’u’llah

-Aqdas, p. 16

In my view the verse above is emphasizing two duties for Baha’is… The first is recognition of the Manifestation and second duty is observing the ordinances and these duties it says are one…

So if a Baha’i claims to recognize Baha’u’llah in this day and then disregards His laws… he has failed…

In another verse of the Aqdas it says:

By My life! All that are on earth shall
pass away, while good deeds alone shall endure; to the
truth of My words God doth Himself bear witness.

~ Baha’u’llah

Kitab-i-Aqdas, p. 44

So it does extol good deeds!

 

[Servant19]

Servant,

Abdu’lBaha was asked what this first verse of the Kitab-I-Aqdas is about. His answer was striking in that He answered it as if the question was about God not the Manifestation. see “Some Answered Questions”. I find this response highly striking. I have had Muslims throw AbdulBaha’s explanation in my face as a proof of who He really thought Bahaullah was.

Therefore this seems to be consistent with what Vouthon just said.

Hi aziz. Yes I understand that. In that first paragraph of the Aqdas there is no reference to a duty to recognise the Manifestation of God in the age in which one lives.

It just says the “Revelation and Fountain of His laws”

So, I see that as Jesus, Moses and Muhammad and the Bab too…

.

 

[Servant19]

It is not I who say this, though I a merely repeating what was told to me when I posed this very question before to other Baha’is.

I am working from memory, nonetheless I have found one of the threads in question from Baha’i Forums:

bahaiforums.com/general-discussion/3268-few-questions-im-relatively-new.html

Arthra, who is a Baha’i and a longstanding member of CAF, replied in post 3 of this thread:

Yes brother and it is for that exact reason that I posted in post #634

God prefers Godly deeds and incorrect faith over correct faith and ungodly deeds



.

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[Tom_Baum]

Based on the above you would have to conclude that Jews haven’t worshiped God since the Crucifixion. Not only do Jews not view Christ as God-Incarnate, they don’t even view him as a prophet like the Muslims do. Apparently a faith created 600+ years after Christ’s death is more correct than the faith Christ was born into.

I do not conclude that at all.

As you pointed out, the Jews do not recognize Jesus for Who Jesus Is and they do NOT deny Who Jesus claims to be and then claim Jesus as a prophet as islam does, to the Jews, Jesus is neither a prophet nor God-Incarnate.

Isn’t there one or more things written concerning Someone not being recognized when this Someone shows up?

There is a difference, a big difference, between a prophesy in the bible concerning the Jews coming true and writings coming along 600 years more or less after Jesus claiming the Jesus of the bible was totally misrepresented and/or a total liar and wishes to set the record straight and then claim this “new” representation as the prophet of a god that is quite different from the God spoken of in the bible.

 

[Bahaitruth]

Now that everyone seems to be in agreement and on the same page, I’m going to disagree that I think the first paragraph of the Kitab-I-Aqdas does have Bahaullah specifically in mind… But hopefully based on what I’ve just posted previously, everyone will get totally confused (mystically speaking)… I think Bahaullah elevated our definition of a God above and beyond what’s presented in Bible and Quran…

 

[Vouthon]

Yes brother and it is for that exact reason that I posted in post #634

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I am completely confused now LOL I don’t know whether I am agreeing or disagreeing with people.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Now that everyone seems to be in agreement and on the same page, I’m going to disagree that I think the first paragraph of the Kitab-I-Aqdas does have Bahaullah specifically in mind… But hopefully based on what I’ve just posted previously, everyone will get totally confused (mystically speaking)… I think Bahaullah elevated our definition of a God above and beyond what’s presented in Bible and Quran…

So aside from the theological difficulties do you suggest Muslims and Christians along with everyone else seeking the God of Abraham with all their hearts are worshipping the same God?

 

[Bahaitruth]

Tom Baum,

My previous post addresses your post as well. I think the Quran elevated the definition of God above what was presented in the New Testament in some ways, that’s why there are these inconsistencies you bring up.

 

[Tom_Baum]

First of all sir, YES that is absolutely correct.

Secondly, the Bible doesn’t say that Jesus is God-Incarnate…

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The bible might not say it but in the bible it is written that Jesus said it and that is why He was called a blasphemer and it was for this blasphemy, among other things, that the religious leaders of Jesus’s Day wanted to and eventually got the Romans to crucify Jesus.

 

[Servant19]

I am completely confused now LOL I don’t know whether I am agreeing or disagreeing with people.

Isn’t this wonderful??
There’s more to come…look at Bahaitruths post above (which I again agree with)

Why, because the paragraph in the Aqdas refers to us adhering to laws…

 

[GaryTaylor]

There is a difference, a big difference, between a prophesy in the bible concerning the Jews coming true and writings coming along 600 years more or less after Jesus claiming the Jesus of the bible was totally misrepresented and/or a total liar and wishes to set the record straight and then claim this “new” representation as the prophet of a god that is quite different from the God spoken of in the bible.

I hear you Tom, but what does it have to do with the point of there being One God of Abraham?

God created everyone, no one contests the point? They only contest who said what and when then claim the other is wrong. But the God of Abraham is still the God of Abraham, and all those truly seeking the God of Abraham with all their hearts will find him? Its affirmed at the Council of Orange and in the Bible.

 

[FrDavid96]

You may not like the answer I gave to the question but I did answer it.

However, you have avoided once again the simple question that I asked which is: If “one” were to worship a bull but call this bull the “God of Abraham Who created ALL”, would this “one” be worshipping the same God as Catholics?

Could you answer this question since both said that they are “worshipping” the “God of Abraham and the creator” which is the criteria you have cited in saying that Muslims and Catholics worship the same God?

No. That’s not the criteria I have cited. It is merely a short summary. What you are doing is known in philosophy as a “straw man.” You are intentionally misrepresenting my position in order to make it look weak. You are wasting your time because the Catholic Church has pondered this question for centuries, and the Church has come to the conclusion that Christians and Moslems do worship the same God. The Church knows what She is teaching.

You are not answering the OPs question. You are answering your own question which you choose to substitute for the OPs question. I keep pointing this out to you, but you are too entrenched in your position to see the words plainly written in front of you.

And I am not answering your question because you are manipulating what I’m saying to equate it with anyone who makes an idol. Ask a reasonable and logical question and I will answer it as best I can.

 

[Servant19]

The bible might not say it but in the bible it is written that Jesus said it and that is why He was called a blasphemer and it was for this blasphemy, among other things, that the religious leaders of Jesus’s Day wanted to and eventually got the Romans to crucify Jesus.

Can you refer us to the chapter and verse you are referring to here please Tom?

.

 

[Bahaitruth]

So aside from the theological difficulties do you suggest Muslims and Christians along with everyone else seeking the God of Abraham with all their hearts are worshipping the same God?

I think the Impersonal aspect of God yes. But I think God has both an impersonal and a personal aspect. The personal aspect of god is being rejected by those that don’t follow the “correct guy”. I don’t think the God of Abraham is only an impersonal reality as Muslims seem to suggest.

 

[GaryTaylor]

Can you refer us to the chapter and verse you are referring to here please Tom?

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I don’t see why this is an important question either, it no different than what Father Dave is saying above its a straw man. Its a known in the Church and before the Catholic Church blessed everyone with its Bible which was intended to help those in the Church follow along a little closer, for the Church was instituted by Christ. Everyone was there to follow the God of Abraham, Jesus Christ. In other words they took the Bible out of the Church and decided to interpret it on there own, thinking they knew better. imagine that?