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Bahaitruth
Guest
Interesting… So it seems to be the same kind of explanation that Bahais uses to say Christianity transitioned to Islam to Bahai… (God’s progressively unfolding covenant)
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PRmerger
Guest
But they are incorrect because Islam denies the central tenets of Chritianity
Christianity, however, does not deny the central tenets of Judaism, but rather affirms them.
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Servant19
Guest
Isn’t one of the central tenets of Judaism that the Messiah will not be God Incarnate?
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Servant19
Guest
Thankyou PR. I don’t see anything explicitly saying that Jesus did not atone for sins.
I am assuming that the Sonship and eternal existence of Jesus is a critical element of His atoning of sins.
If He were not the Son of God and pre-existent, would He not have any atoning authority therefore? On what basis is that conclusion made?
With the second quote you provided, would you not conclude the possibility that the Quran is implying that Jesus OVERCAME death?
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Gabriel_of_12
Guest
Judaism have had many messiah’s come and go and those to come. It would appear from the midrash writings you speak from?
The True Messiah announced his coming from the prophets, the Psalms and Moses.
They will not know where he is from, His kingdom will never end (eternal) and the promised Messiah does not die, He will come from the Lineage of King David. There are over 400 prophecies about this divine Messiah who will raise the dead, heal the sick, give sight to the blind, etc…
Isaiah announced His birth from a maiden (virgin), God promised His birth from Genesis 3:15 whom God will put enmity between the Woman (mother) and her seed (Jesus).
Funny thing is, Jesus revealed to the Jews, “before Abraham was, I AM”, which gave them reason to stone Jesus.
The Mystery of God incarnate being born is hidden in the Old, but get’s revealed with the New. For one to see these mysteries get revealed and fulfilled, you need both Judaism and Christianity. You cannot have one without the Other.
Islam and others are Johnny come lately belief systems, that never had any eye witnesses to the Old testament or the New Testament when the Holy Spirit revealed them to our humanity.
An angel who brings a different gospel does not supersede or disqualify the Spoken Word of God revealed in time.
Peace be with you
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PRmerger
Guest
Source for this, please?
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PRmerger
Guest
I suggest you watch this video about Islam and their rejection of the atonement.
islamreligion.com/videos/2785/
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PRmerger
Guest
And, Servant, here is another thing to look at:
islamreligion.com/articles/630/viewall/
It’s called “The Historical Fallacy of Atonement”
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PRmerger
Guest
And here is another source which documents Islam’s rejection of the atoning death of Christ:
This dogma is not only a denial of the Mercy of God but also of His Justice. To demand the price of blood in order to forgive the sins of men is to show a complete lack of mercy, and to punish a man who is not guilty for the sins of others, whether the former is willing or not, is the height of injustice.
And here also:
Islam rejects this dogma. It declares that the forgiveness of sins cannot be obtained by the suffering and sacrifice of any other person, human or divine, but by the Grace of God and our
own sincere and persistent efforts to fight against evil and do good:
(That no laden one shall bear an0ther’s load, and that man hath only that for which he maketh effort, and that his effort will be seen.)
(The Glorious Qur’an 53:38, 40)
islambasics.com/view.php?bkID=175&chapter=23#_ftn4
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Servant19
Guest
Any Muslim sitting on a throne like that has got it all wrong
(I will listen to it however to see if there is any quotes from the Quran outside of what you quoted)
(EDIT) Thanks for the other sources too, but I really think that you are not looking at it from the Muslim foundation. I’ll take a good look though
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Servant19
Guest
Well can you show me one Jewish source that says that the Messiah WILL be God Incarnate?
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Servant19
Guest
Hi PR,
I really prefer to stick to the original Word in the Quran. The sources you provided are really with filled human interpretative nonsense in many ways
Lets stick to the source? Not human interpretations. In Islam there is no real human authority. We can both read English well and make some reasoned conclusions from the Quran’s words.
Would you mind answering the questions I posed here please?
I really prefer to stick to the original Word in the Quran. The sources you provided are really with filled human interpretative nonsense in many ways
Lets stick to the source? Not human interpretations. In Islam there is no real human authority. We can both read English well and make some reasoned conclusions from the Quran’s words.
Would you mind answering the questions I posed here please?
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PRmerger
Guest
Is this not your claim that one of the central tenets of Judaism is that God cannot become Incarnate?
Is this not your post right here:
So, you need to provide your source.
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PRmerger
Guest
If Jesus didn’t really die, how is it that you believe Islam professes that Jesus paid for our sins?
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Servant19
Guest
This is where the biggest differences arise between so many Faiths.
Death…
What it is, and its nature.
From the perspective of a foetus, being born, is death.
From the perspective of a human body, dying is death. From the perspective of a human soul, death is life.
Which perspective do you take with Jesus?
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Servant19
Guest
Hi PR, it is my understanding that Scripture, especially prophetic Scripture, talks about what the prophecy IS, not what it isn’t…
So the OT does not say that the Messiah will not have brown eyes, will not have blonde hair, will not be from the family line of Noah, will not be a boat maker, will not be God Incarnate.
My source was actually Meltzerboy, maybe he can chip in and clarify?
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meltzerboy
New member
In the Book of Jeremiah, it states the Messiah will be a political leader and a judge who makes virtuous decisions. He will also be well-versed in and observant of Jewish Law according to Isaiah. There is no explicit mention of the Messiah, however, in the Torah portion of the Hebrew Bible. It is the Oral Law (Talmud), also believed to be given by G-d to Moses at Mount Sinai, that discusses the attributes of the Messiah and the Messianic age in more detail. The term as used in the Hebrew Bible means the anointed one as is applicable to a king, but it does not translate as savior.
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Bahaitruth
Guest
Dear Servant19,
I would just add that as we (Baha’is) believe in the truth of Judaism, we also believe in the truth of Christianity, with especial emphasis on the Catholic Church. Bahaullah addresses the Pope first among the Rulers in the Suriy-i-Haykal.
So although Metzelboy is correct about messiah, we embrace Jesus Christ as taught in the New Testament and through the Pope, because of God’s Covenant and Progressive Revelation…
(This is why it says Baha’is are to Islam, Judaism, and Christianity, what Christians are to Judaism — and why Bahaullah is claimed to be the return of Christ )
I would just add that as we (Baha’is) believe in the truth of Judaism, we also believe in the truth of Christianity, with especial emphasis on the Catholic Church. Bahaullah addresses the Pope first among the Rulers in the Suriy-i-Haykal.
So although Metzelboy is correct about messiah, we embrace Jesus Christ as taught in the New Testament and through the Pope, because of God’s Covenant and Progressive Revelation…
(This is why it says Baha’is are to Islam, Judaism, and Christianity, what Christians are to Judaism — and why Bahaullah is claimed to be the return of Christ )
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Servant19
Guest
Absolutely Bahaitruth
As I have said in another thread today, were it not for my knowledge of the Bab and Baha’u’llah’s existence, I would be a Catholic!
The point I’m trying to make is that I do not belive the Quran negates the atoning station of Jesus Christ.
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GaryTaylor
Guest
Right, and the point repetitively stated here is there is no more public revelation, all private revelation is …
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s1c2a1.htm
50 By natural reason man can know God with certainty, on the basis of his works. But there is another order of knowledge, which man cannot possibly arrive at by his own powers: the order of divine Revelation.1 Through an utterly free decision, God has revealed himself and given himself to man. This he does by revealing the mystery, his plan of loving goodness, formed from all eternity in Christ, for the benefit of all men. God has fully revealed this plan by sending us his beloved Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit.
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s1c2a1.htm
There will be no further Revelation
66 "The Christian economy, therefore, since it is the new and definitive Covenant, will never pass away; and no new public revelation is to be expected before the glorious manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ."28 Yet even if Revelation is already complete, it has not been made completely explicit; it remains for Christian faith gradually to grasp its full significance over the course of the centuries.
67 Throughout the ages, there have been so-called “private” revelations, some of which have been recognized by the authority of the Church. They do not belong, however, to the deposit of faith. It is not their role to improve or complete Christ’s definitive Revelation, but to help live more fully by it in a certain period of history. Guided by the Magisterium of the Church, the sensus fidelium knows how to discern and welcome in these revelations whatever constitutes an authentic call of Christ or his saints to the Church.
Christian faith cannot accept “revelations” that claim to surpass or correct the Revelation of which Christ is the fulfillment
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/apost_exhortations/documents/hf_ben-xvi_exh_20100930_verbum-domini_en.html
“We announce to you the eternal life which dwelt with the Father and was made visible to us.”
God of Abraham …
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s1c2a1.htm
50 By natural reason man can know God with certainty, on the basis of his works. But there is another order of knowledge, which man cannot possibly arrive at by his own powers: the order of divine Revelation.1 Through an utterly free decision, God has revealed himself and given himself to man. This he does by revealing the mystery, his plan of loving goodness, formed from all eternity in Christ, for the benefit of all men. God has fully revealed this plan by sending us his beloved Son, our Lord Jesus Christ, and the Holy Spirit.
vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p1s1c2a1.htm
There will be no further Revelation
66 "The Christian economy, therefore, since it is the new and definitive Covenant, will never pass away; and no new public revelation is to be expected before the glorious manifestation of our Lord Jesus Christ."28 Yet even if Revelation is already complete, it has not been made completely explicit; it remains for Christian faith gradually to grasp its full significance over the course of the centuries.
67 Throughout the ages, there have been so-called “private” revelations, some of which have been recognized by the authority of the Church. They do not belong, however, to the deposit of faith. It is not their role to improve or complete Christ’s definitive Revelation, but to help live more fully by it in a certain period of history. Guided by the Magisterium of the Church, the sensus fidelium knows how to discern and welcome in these revelations whatever constitutes an authentic call of Christ or his saints to the Church.
Christian faith cannot accept “revelations” that claim to surpass or correct the Revelation of which Christ is the fulfillment
vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/apost_exhortations/documents/hf_ben-xvi_exh_20100930_verbum-domini_en.html
- The word of God also inevitably reveals the tragic possibility that human freedom can withdraw from this covenant dialogue with God for which we were created. The divine word also discloses the sin that lurks in the human heart. Quite frequently in both the Old and in the New Testament, we find sin described as a refusal to hear the word, as a breaking of the covenant and thus as being closed to God who calls us to communion with himself.[78] Sacred Scripture shows how man’s sin is essentially disobedience and refusal to hear. The radical obedience of Jesus even to his death on the cross (cf. Phil 2:8) completely unmasks this sin. His obedience brings about the New Covenant between God and man, and grants us the possibility of reconciliation. Jesus was sent by the Father as a sacrifice of atonement for our sins and for those of the whole world (cf. 1 Jn 2:2; 4:10; Heb 7:27). We are thus offered the merciful possibility of redemption and the start of a new life in Christ. For this reason it is important that the faithful be taught to acknowledge that the root of sin lies in the refusal to hear the word of the Lord, and to accept in Jesus, the Word of God, the forgiveness which opens us to salvation.
- Another major theme that emerged during the Synod, to which I would now like to draw attention, is the interpretation of sacred Scripture in the Church. The intrinsic link between the word and faith makes clear that authentic biblical hermeneutics can only be had within the faith of the Church,
“We announce to you the eternal life which dwelt with the Father and was made visible to us.”
God of Abraham …
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