R
Rhabdosidera
Guest
Allah is not Trinity. Neither are I AM. Why are my posts unceasingly ceased?
- Status
Q
Quick293
Guest
Hello 4eva Catholic,
Although I am not sure, I think Muslims do believe Mary is a Virgin and possibly venerate/honor her because they revere our Lord as a prophet. I will continue studying the topic of the ins and outs of the question of do Muslims, Jews, and Christians worship the same God and I will pray for you and your understanding of this topic as well. Let us look to our Lady to guide us on the correct path to her Son for the answer ( ^ _ ^ ).
Thank you ( ^ _ ^ )!
Although I am not sure, I think Muslims do believe Mary is a Virgin and possibly venerate/honor her because they revere our Lord as a prophet. I will continue studying the topic of the ins and outs of the question of do Muslims, Jews, and Christians worship the same God and I will pray for you and your understanding of this topic as well. Let us look to our Lady to guide us on the correct path to her Son for the answer ( ^ _ ^ ).
Thank you ( ^ _ ^ )!
J
Judas_Thaddeus
Guest
Jews and Christians worship the same God and (LET’S TAKE A DEEEEP BREATH:
<Haaa<…) Islam worships the same God! All three religions trace their roots back
to the God of Abraham, so what’s the problem? The Problem is that all three have
different understandings of that Same GOD.
THAT IS THE PROBLEM!!!
The Problem isn’t that we all have different Gods, the PROBLEM is that the Jews have their
understanding, we Christians have ours, and the Muslims have their own, of who God is, but
only ONE is CORRECT.
Having a different understanding of God does not disqualify one as believing in the same
God, BUT THERE IS A LINE TO BE DRAWN, such as with the Mormons and Jehovah’s
Witnesses, the Baha’i and the Yezidi, groups like those which take radical steps outside
of the Abrahamic Family.
The Muslims says, “Jesus is not the Son of God.”
Now if we were to assume that Islam has a different God and even a different Jesus, then
the Christian is logically INCAPABLE of arguing that point which the Muslim made about
God and Jesus, because in the end he would be talking about something DIFFERENT.
NO!
That is not the logical way to approach Islam, for it DOES worship the same God, it be-
lieves in the same Jesus, but the PROBLEM at hand, which is what we should be deal-
ing with, is that Islam bears the incorrect data and information concerning God, Jesus,
Mary, the Prophets, Nature of Sin, etc, etc, etc.
Now I’m not going to discuss Judaism, except that Jesus is a Jew (still God),
WORSHIPS THE SAME GOD. I discussed Islam more because there are far
more ERRONEOUS arguments that dismisses Islam as Pagan, which is just
utter (what word comes to mind).
<Haaa<…) Islam worships the same God! All three religions trace their roots back
to the God of Abraham, so what’s the problem? The Problem is that all three have
different understandings of that Same GOD.
THAT IS THE PROBLEM!!!
The Problem isn’t that we all have different Gods, the PROBLEM is that the Jews have their
understanding, we Christians have ours, and the Muslims have their own, of who God is, but
only ONE is CORRECT.
Having a different understanding of God does not disqualify one as believing in the same
God, BUT THERE IS A LINE TO BE DRAWN, such as with the Mormons and Jehovah’s
Witnesses, the Baha’i and the Yezidi, groups like those which take radical steps outside
of the Abrahamic Family.
The Muslims says, “Jesus is not the Son of God.”
Now if we were to assume that Islam has a different God and even a different Jesus, then
the Christian is logically INCAPABLE of arguing that point which the Muslim made about
God and Jesus, because in the end he would be talking about something DIFFERENT.
NO!
That is not the logical way to approach Islam, for it DOES worship the same God, it be-
lieves in the same Jesus, but the PROBLEM at hand, which is what we should be deal-
ing with, is that Islam bears the incorrect data and information concerning God, Jesus,
Mary, the Prophets, Nature of Sin, etc, etc, etc.
Now I’m not going to discuss Judaism, except that Jesus is a Jew (still God),
WORSHIPS THE SAME GOD. I discussed Islam more because there are far
more ERRONEOUS arguments that dismisses Islam as Pagan, which is just
utter (what word comes to mind).
M
Mount_Carmel
Guest
Not so sure about the ‘Virgin’ bit, but I have seen a photo of a mosque in the US claimed to be dedicated/named after Our Lady.
J
Judas_Thaddeus
Guest
Yes, they do, Muslims believe in the Miraculous Birth of Jesus.(Mary) said: “How shall
I have a son, seeing that
no man has touched me,
and I am not unchaste?”
(Jibral) said: “So (it will be): Thy Lord saith, “That is easy
for Me**:** and (We wish) to appoint him as a Sign unto men
and a Mercy from Us”: It is a matter (So) decreed.”
So she conceived him,
and she retired with him
to a remote place.
- Qur’an 19:20–22
That settles the matter.
B
Bahman
Guest
These three Gods are different as their teaching and theology are different. Consider God of Muslim when it comes to teaching, many wives, prohibition of alcoholic drink, stoning to death, cutting finger and arms of thieves etc which you cannot find any of them in Christianity. Jesus is consider as a profit without any divine power etc. The list is long but to me one counter example is enough.
J
Judas_Thaddeus
Guest
What I hear you saying is that the Muslim is justified in saying,
“Jesus is not the Son of God.” There’s no way out of that logic.
Islam says the WRONG things about God, but it does NOT preach a different God.
OH, and on the God of the Jews, it was this God who promised the Messiah.
Not only that, Jesus is a Jew! And yes the Father is identified as Jesus’ God.
There is no God of the Christians, no God of the Jews, no God of the Muslims, but
there is ONLY ONE GOD, and he is by NO MEANS the sole property of any partic-
ular religion.
Jews, Christians, Muslims, all three, believe in the SAME GOD. It’s the Mormons,
Jehovah’s Witnesses, Baha’i, Babists, Yezidi, etc. who are outside of the Circle of
Abrahamic Faith.
STOP BEING SQUEAMISH YOU CHRISTIANS! That’s what this all about, Christians
tend to be so wanting to not associate with Islam that they, for their own sociological
reasons, say that Muslims worship a different God.
O
Origen52
Guest
I think you’re correct in this. I don’t understand why, after all that has been written on the subject, some Catholics still believe God and salvation are only available to them. If God is able to place his son within the womb of a virgin, resurrect from the dead, and create the universe, I would think saving those outside the faith would be an easy task for Him. I try to live by my mother’s words of wisdom. Be the best person you can be, be kind to all living things, keep close to God through prayer, and worry about your own salvation rather than trying to decide who else God will save.
I once said something about someone else’s sin. My mother said we can never know if another person’s actions are sins because we do not know what caused her to act in that way. I have always kept those words in my heart.
J
Judas_Thaddeus
Guest
CAREFUL, I didn’t say that salvation is attainable outside the Catholic Church. Yes, God
can possibly save others outside of the faith, but only as God sees fit in his judgement.
This “Be the best person you can be” bit means NOTHING to God without the Faith.
We ought not to say who will be saved, you’re right there, but that can’t lead us into
the universal salvation thing (I’m not sure if you’re saying that or not).
Now a person who is not Catholic MAY potentially have a mysterious saving relationship
with God that can qualify this hypothetical person to salvation and eternal life, but that’s
not what I was talking about before.
The only point I was making was that Muslims believe in the same God. Whether they
have the correct relationship with this Same God, however, is another matter entirely.
Muslims, for example, don’t believe they need the shed blood of Jesus, which is very
damaging to having a good relationship with God.
O
Octree
Guest
Allah means not “the god”, “al ilah” = “the god”. Allah is a proper name.
Allah has no son:
We also have a nice proof that Allah is Satan for he is
Satan is the most wise creature. Satan is the god of those who live on earth. As for the Holy Trinity, I have been banned way too many times.
B
BertBlyleven
Guest
The principal mystery of the Catholic faith is the Trinity. The Trinity is the fundamental truth for Christians, God is and has always been One Divine Nature with Three Divine Persons.
Jews believe our Lord is a man, a deceiver, and a magician. Christians believe He is God.
Muslims believe our Lord is a man, but a prophet. Christians believe He is God.
Both Jews and Muslims believe in a single divine person.
Thus as a Christian it is impossible to say we worship the same God as Jews and Muslims. Though our Lord has a human nature, denying His Divine nature and the Holy Spirit results in a fundamental difference in belief that cannot be reconciled, no matter how much goodwill exists.
Both faith and religion as virtues assume correct faith. Per Catholic teaching, it is impossible for someone to even worship God (act of the virtue of religion) without correct faith. Note by worship I do not mean to receive a grace, or to pray, but to give God what is due and what is pleasing to Him. And without faith, presumably correct faith, it is impossible to please God.
You can call a book a cup, but when you try to drink from it, you see it fails. We can say “we all worship the God of Abraham,” but we under a bit of inspection, we clearly do not. This is not even considering the view of Divine Nature between the 3 religions, mind you, in which you will find not a few fundamental differences.
For another thread: Do Catholics other Christians worship the same God?
Jews believe our Lord is a man, a deceiver, and a magician. Christians believe He is God.
Muslims believe our Lord is a man, but a prophet. Christians believe He is God.
Both Jews and Muslims believe in a single divine person.
Thus as a Christian it is impossible to say we worship the same God as Jews and Muslims. Though our Lord has a human nature, denying His Divine nature and the Holy Spirit results in a fundamental difference in belief that cannot be reconciled, no matter how much goodwill exists.
Both faith and religion as virtues assume correct faith. Per Catholic teaching, it is impossible for someone to even worship God (act of the virtue of religion) without correct faith. Note by worship I do not mean to receive a grace, or to pray, but to give God what is due and what is pleasing to Him. And without faith, presumably correct faith, it is impossible to please God.
You can call a book a cup, but when you try to drink from it, you see it fails. We can say “we all worship the God of Abraham,” but we under a bit of inspection, we clearly do not. This is not even considering the view of Divine Nature between the 3 religions, mind you, in which you will find not a few fundamental differences.
For another thread: Do Catholics other Christians worship the same God?
O
Origen52
Guest
Concerning this doctrine the Pope of Vatican I, Pius IX, spoke on two different occasions. In an allocution (address to an audience) on December 9th, 1854 he said:
We must hold as of the faith, that out of the Apostolic Roman Church there is no salvation; that she is the only ark of safety, and whosoever is not in her perishes in the deluge; we must also, on the other hand, recognize with certainty that those who are invincible in ignorance of the true religion are not guilty for this in the eyes of the Lord. And who would presume to mark out the limits of this ignorance according to the character and diversity of peoples, countries, minds and the rest?]
Again, in his encyclical Quanto conficiamur moerore of 10 August, 1863 addressed to the Italian bishops, he said:
It is known to us and to you that those who are in invincible ignorance of our most holy religion, but who observe carefully the natural law, and the precepts graven by God upon the hearts of all men, and who being disposed to obey God lead an honest and upright life, may, aided by the light of divine grace, attain to eternal life; for God who sees clearly, searches and knows the heart, the disposition, the thoughts and intentions of each, in His supreme mercy and goodness by no means permits that anyone suffer eternal punishment, who has not of his own free will fallen into sin.
These statements are consistent with the understanding of the Church contained in the documents of Vatican II, and the Catechism of the Catholic Church, as well as explaining why the rigorist position of Fr. Feeney (that all must be actual members of the Catholic Church to be saved) has been condemned by the Magisterium. It is ironic that precisely those who know their obligation to remain united to the Magisterium, and thus on whom this doctrine is morally binding, keep themselves from union with the Roman See on this point.
ewtn.com/expert/answers/outside_the_church.htm
We must hold as of the faith, that out of the Apostolic Roman Church there is no salvation; that she is the only ark of safety, and whosoever is not in her perishes in the deluge; we must also, on the other hand, recognize with certainty that those who are invincible in ignorance of the true religion are not guilty for this in the eyes of the Lord. And who would presume to mark out the limits of this ignorance according to the character and diversity of peoples, countries, minds and the rest?]
Again, in his encyclical Quanto conficiamur moerore of 10 August, 1863 addressed to the Italian bishops, he said:
It is known to us and to you that those who are in invincible ignorance of our most holy religion, but who observe carefully the natural law, and the precepts graven by God upon the hearts of all men, and who being disposed to obey God lead an honest and upright life, may, aided by the light of divine grace, attain to eternal life; for God who sees clearly, searches and knows the heart, the disposition, the thoughts and intentions of each, in His supreme mercy and goodness by no means permits that anyone suffer eternal punishment, who has not of his own free will fallen into sin.
These statements are consistent with the understanding of the Church contained in the documents of Vatican II, and the Catechism of the Catholic Church, as well as explaining why the rigorist position of Fr. Feeney (that all must be actual members of the Catholic Church to be saved) has been condemned by the Magisterium. It is ironic that precisely those who know their obligation to remain united to the Magisterium, and thus on whom this doctrine is morally binding, keep themselves from union with the Roman See on this point.
ewtn.com/expert/answers/outside_the_church.htm
Q
Quick293
Guest
Thank you all for replying ( ^ _ ^ )!
It seems I am somewhat confused at the moment. If this conclusion is correct, Muslims, Jews, and Christians worship the same God, however in order to obtain the salvation of Muslims and Jews souls so they may be in a state of grace they will need to convert to Catholicism? If they happen to die before receiving the Sacrament of Baptism there is Baptism of Desire and Baptism of Blood that could save them. Please correct any information located above if it seems inaccurate.
Thank you ( ^ _ ^ )!
It seems I am somewhat confused at the moment. If this conclusion is correct, Muslims, Jews, and Christians worship the same God, however in order to obtain the salvation of Muslims and Jews souls so they may be in a state of grace they will need to convert to Catholicism? If they happen to die before receiving the Sacrament of Baptism there is Baptism of Desire and Baptism of Blood that could save them. Please correct any information located above if it seems inaccurate.
Thank you ( ^ _ ^ )!
V
ventura2323
Guest
V
ventura2323
Guest
No matter what religion we choose, there is still only one God for all denominations…The soul that hungers and thirsts will find God.
Being good on the outside does not fool God.
Q
Quick293
Guest
Hello ventura2323,
Yes, Catholicism is the One True Faith, however I seem to be confused how Jews and Muslims would obtain the salvation of their soul if they worship the same God as we do. The only conclusion I could think of regarding my knowledge is if the Muslim or Jew desired to be Baptized however died before they received the Sacrament of Baptism or were martyred for believing in Jesus then after death God is the only one to judge them if they did obtain the salvation of their soul if they chose to be damned.
Thank you ( ^ _ ^ )!
Yes, Catholicism is the One True Faith, however I seem to be confused how Jews and Muslims would obtain the salvation of their soul if they worship the same God as we do. The only conclusion I could think of regarding my knowledge is if the Muslim or Jew desired to be Baptized however died before they received the Sacrament of Baptism or were martyred for believing in Jesus then after death God is the only one to judge them if they did obtain the salvation of their soul if they chose to be damned.
Thank you ( ^ _ ^ )!
O
Origen52
Guest
One need not be a catholic to be saved. That is the teaching of the magisterium. Maybe we should all stop worrying about how others are saved and make sure we are saved.
J
Judas_Thaddeus
Guest
Are you belittling the Magisterium?
O
Origen52
Guest
No it would be ewtn which is belittling the magisterium.
These statements are consistent with the understanding of the Church contained in the documents of Vatican II, and the Catechism of the Catholic Church,** as well as explaining why the rigorist position of Fr. Feeney (that all must be actual members of the Catholic Church to be saved) has been condemned by the Magisterium**
ewtn.com/expert/answers/outside_the_church.htm
If you are interested in an in-depth analysis of individual conscience and salvation, I suggest reading:
CONSCIENCE AND TRUTH
ewtn.com/library/curia/ratzcons.htm
V
ventura2323
Guest
It is not for us to decide who can be saved. I let God be the judge.
I just know that anyone with a pure desire to know God will, whether they are the wild men of borneo. Or parts of the world where people never even heard of salvation . God is everywhere and in everyone and you don’t have to be a catholic or Jew or whatever.
“Judge and be judged”
These people talk about faith, they have no idea what they are talking about. Faith comes from having a close relationship with the Holy Spirit, the son of God, and not attaching it to any religious belief system.
I refuse to judge who can be saved.
- Status