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bobzills
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I thought it was forbidden for Catholics to use any form of artificial birth control?
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bobzills
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This comment seems to be off the topic of the thread which is how Muslims love having children, whereas Catholics do not like having large families.
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Montalban
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And I read *somewhere *Mormons have the fastest growing religion (see also this)
Your premise that they love children based on birthrate, and then to compare birthrates of different societies is fraud. Compare equally poor nation’s birthrates.
You use an argument that is devoid of proper comparison.
People have met your argument with serious discussion and fact, both of which you wish to avoid
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bobzills
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Actually, Saudi Arabia and Kuwait have rather high GDP per capita.
Regardless, it looks like you don’t want to admit that Muslims like having children and European Catholics really don’t like having too many children. You might want to take a trip to either France or England and visit the Muslim neighborhoods. Perhaps then you might change your mind. I can see it in my own neighborhood.
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Montalban
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Higher than what?
Then you’re back to simply repeating your own distorted ‘comparison’.
Compare map:
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Birth_rate_figures_for_countries.PNG
Catholic nations of South America have equally high birth rates to Moslem nations.
This is fact.
This has been pointed out to you before.
This is what you ignore
You counter this with your own ‘observations’ in your local neighbourhood! Convincing stuff!
Note to others; the highest levels include Islamic naitons such as Afghanistan, AND Christian nations such as Mozambique
What is common is not religion, but poverty.
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bobzills
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According to the Readers Digest Almanac 1983, and World Almanac and Book of Facts 1935, the growth rate for Islam has been 235 percent over 50 years, whereas Christianity has increased by 47 percent. Hinduism has increased by 117% over this period, and Buddhism has increased by 63% over this period. I didn’t see the increase for Mormonism, during this period, but keep in mind that Islam is much, much larger than Mormonism, as it has anywhere from 1.5 to 1.8 billion members today.
If you are questioning the statistics because they compare third world countries with European countries, we can focus in on France. The Muslim population of France increased from one tenth of a percent to 2.7 percent between 1900 and 1970. In seventy years the Muslim population of France increased 27 times. Between 1970 and 1990 the Muslim population of France more than doubled to 6.8 percent. of France.
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Montalban
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Wow data from more than 20 years ago and even further back!
If you’d bothered to have looked at wiki you’d have seen that ‘within Australia’ (not a poor nation) Buddhism is fastest growing. So I can cite stats from ‘within countries’ too!
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bobzills
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Correct. I am looking over a 50 year period. And it shows that Islam was the fastest growing over that period of time. For the more recent times in France, we also see Islam growing quite rapidly. And France is a first world country.
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eliasaph99
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Every married couple should have at least three children.
I base this on the statistic which indicates that in order for a population simply to maintain itself, each couple should have 2.2 children. Since my wife and I haven’t been able to produce a fractional child yet, I thought it would be safe just to round up.
We’re already 2/3’s of the way to doing our minimal part. However, we plan to do more than our part!
I do agree with the idea that people in our society state reasons not to have children that would seem ridiculous to older generations. A good example is space. My wife and I want our children to each have a bedroom. Or maybe no more than 2 kids in a bedroom.
My mother-in-law thinks that’s ridiculous. She grew up in Portugal in a small house. The house had a bedroom for the girls, one for the boys, and one for the parents. The only other room was the kitchen. The bathroom was the corner of the yard behind the barn out back. This is no exaggeration - I have seen the house myself.
All in all, there were twelve siblings. At one time, she has told me, they didn’t have mattresses and just used to put fresh hay on the floor every so often.
They were also to poor to afford silverware for everybody and used to share forks and spoons when they ate.
When she talks about her childhood, one of the most eye-opening things she says is this: ‘We have nothing, but we are so happy…’ (almost all of her English is present tense, even though she’s talking about the past.). Then she relates stories of how the poverty and daily struggles knit her family together and how much they loved each other and worked for and shared with each other.
Sometimes it breaks my heart to hear it and I wonder if I am depriving my children by trying to provide them with to much. Maybe more simplicity would be better for their souls.
And maybe for mine too.
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Montalban
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No. You’re looking at ‘rates’ back then to rates now but in selected countries, cherry-picking left and right till you find something that agrees with you.
France is a first world country. So is Australia. You ignore Australia as an example. You ignore poor Christian nations to example because they don’t fit in with your model
In fact there’s evidence that Buddhism is a faster growing religion in France, too.
You are probably the most selective user of statistics I’ve yet met… all to push an idea that they ‘love’ children more. Which is not proven by this at all. The ‘we have more children’ therefore we love children more does not follow for those who have a single child may love children just as much per se.
See
bible.ca/islam/islam-myths-fastest-growing.htm
And even then you’ve not proven your own point!
You see your own OP’s title is not “Muslims love to HAVE more children” but “Muslims love children more”. However then your OP is about loving having more children! Which is a different matter!
So you’re all over the place. You want to show ‘fastest growing religion’ as a proof of ‘fastest growing birhrate’ to prove not that they’re having MORE children, but that they love their children more!
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bobzills
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The rate of increase over a fifty year period was a worldwide figure. It did not break down anything country by country. It showed a worldwide increas in Muslims of 235 percent, whereas the worldwide increase in Christianity was 47 percent over the same period. And take a look at what has happened to Europe over the last ten years or so, and you will see a remarkable increase in Islam. In fact, in our locality here, there have been built three brand new mosques, while they have torn down and wrecked two Catholic Churches.
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Montalban
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No. You looked specifically at France as an example in an effort to retort to the facts that the birthrate for Moslems is to do with poor countries.
You can’t even make a consistant argument!
The birthrate in Christian poor countries is equally consistantly high.
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eliasaph99
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I wonder if you noticed that the period of growth that you’re looking at is when the Western nations of the world, through their charitable organizations and the United Nations, began campaigns to innoculate the world against many diseases.
The life expectancy of people worldwide went up enormously.
My point being that while the growth you’re referring to is real, in terms of body counts, the reasons you’re alluding to it occurring may be false. I don’t think that there has been a huge evangelization, or a huge conversion, or that they have decided to out procreate us. Rather, children who would otherwise have died, have been saved and grown up, largely due to the charity of the West.
This has happened in an extremely short period of time. Their cultures have not adjusted yet to the idea that their children will live. In America, when we speak of having children, we assume that our children will live to adulthood. In the history of the world, this is a relatively recent phenomenon. One of the reasons people used to have a large number of children was to offset the number which would perish.
Their culture will adjust to the idea that their children will live into adulthood, and the norms will change.
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MelanieAnne
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Unsubscribing…
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bobzills
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You hope. Meanwhile, European Catholics really don;t want any more than two or three children per family (although there are exceptions).
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bobzills
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Well, let’s take a look at Qatar, which has a GDP per capita greater than either Switzerland or the USA or most European countries. Or take a look a Kuwait, which has a GDP per capita greater than Spain but about equal to Italy. Or at the UAE, United Arab Emirates, which has a GDP greater than Italy.
Qatar: births per woman 2.8.Gowth rate 2.4%
Kuwait: births per woman 2.9 Growth rate 3.6%
UAE: births per woman 2.4 Growth rate 4%
Spain births per woman 1.3 Growth rate 0.1%
Italy births per woman 1.3 Growth rate 0.01%
Which poorer Catholic country do you have in mind to compare to a Muslim country with roughly the same GDP per capita?
I haven’t compared every country, but the statistics for countries above, with roughly the same GDP per capita, show that in Muslim countries, people are having more children per woman, than in Catholic countries.
These are statistical facts, pure and simple, and it would be interesting to see if there is some counterexample of a Catholic country where the number of births per woman is more than a Muslim country with a similar GDP per capita.
I am interested to compare the birth rate in countries with similar GDP.
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Montalban
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bobzills
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Which Catholic countries are you referring to?If they were poorer, then they’d not have the equiveleant GDP!
Comedy of errors!
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Montalban
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Qatar has a birth rate of 15.56 and a GDP of 62,914
How much of its birth rate is made up of nationals, and how much from ‘guest workers’ from poorer Islamic nations?
United States is slightly lower down on GDP and birth rate. So a Christian nation aproximately as rich as this Islamic nation has aproximately as high a birth rate. You’ll probably find that the higher birth rates within the USA are amongst the poorer groups - such as Latinos (who are predominantly Catholic).
So it’s about wealth. Not faith.
Figures from
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita
and
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_birth_rate
There’s some poor Christian nations for you to trouble yourself with…
Burundi’s birth rate 42.22 GDP 90
Uganda’s birth rate 47.35 and GDP of 316
How much of its birth rate is made up of nationals, and how much from ‘guest workers’ from poorer Islamic nations?
United States is slightly lower down on GDP and birth rate. So a Christian nation aproximately as rich as this Islamic nation has aproximately as high a birth rate. You’ll probably find that the higher birth rates within the USA are amongst the poorer groups - such as Latinos (who are predominantly Catholic).
So it’s about wealth. Not faith.
Figures from
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)_per_capita
and
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_birth_rate
There’s some poor Christian nations for you to trouble yourself with…
Burundi’s birth rate 42.22 GDP 90
Uganda’s birth rate 47.35 and GDP of 316
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mgrfin
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The whole thread seems to me to be irrelevant. How can you prove it, and when you do, what does it mean?
This topic ought to be removed.
peace
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