Do Muslims love children more than Catholics?

[Hastrman]

I’d say that whichever group doesn’t teach their kids to be suicide bombers, circumcise their daughters, and kill children who offend the family honor, loves its kids more.

Nah, couldn’t be.

 

[jrnami]

Too many children IS a burden, especially physically on women. I have a large family and it was physically exhausting and took a major toll on my health when I was having one child after another. I don’t see anything inherently spiritual in having lots of kids and living in poverty. That’s ridiculous and a lot of those people are plain irresponsible.

 

[Montalban]

And of course, in Islam, women can be married off much earlier.

A life of serving their men and popping out chidlren.

 

[andzy]

And of course, in Islam, women can be married off much earlier.
A life of serving their men and popping out chidlren.

Well, it’s not just Islam that women are married young. The same traditionally was the case among Jews, various Asian people, and even among Europeans…

 

[Montalban]

Well, it’s not just Islam that women are married young. The same traditionally was the case among Jews, various Asian people, and even among Europeans…

We’re talking about current birth rates. Moslems are still permitted (in many nations under Islamic law) to ‘marry’ girls when they reach puberty; some expert sites say they’re allowed to be married even earlier…
e.g

"In summary, then, it is permitted to contract marriage with a young girl and to hand her over to her husband to stay with him before she reaches adolescence. As for consummating the marriage, this does not happen until she is physically able for it. "
islamqa.com/index.php?ref=1493&ln=eng
See also this ruling from the same site.

You’re therefore not making a comparison relevant to this thread.

If you’re interested, check out the answer to this question
“What is the punishment for a girl found guilty of adultery if she has not even reached her puberty that is she is still a minor ?.”
also at the same site

 

[andzy]

You’re therefore not making a comparison relevant to this thread.

It was just as relevant to the topic as the phrase “A life of serving their men and popping out chidlren.” :tiphat:

 

[Montalban]

“The prophet of Allah said: When a man calls his wife to satisfy his desire, let her come to him though she is occupied at the oven.”
Mishkat al-Masabih, English translation, Book I, Section ‘Duties of husband and wife’, Hadith No. 61

It was just as relevant to the topic as the phrase “A life of serving their men and popping out chidlren.”

No it’s not relevant at all, because if this was the burden of women in the west before, it’s not now.

It still is the role of women in the Islamic world.

If you can find a parallel that’s proper and fit, that’d be cool.

What you’re in fact trying to do is draw data of women (of the west) from one era to compare it to women now in Islam.

Like the author of the OP you’re attempting to compare apples to oranges. I know it’s difficult for some to draw an argument based on fact, but give it a go!

 

[andzy]

No comment…

 

[Montalban]

No comment…

Here’s a ‘modern’ opinion
If a woman rebels against her husband and disobeys his commands, then he should follow this method of admonishing her, forsaking her in bed and hitting her. Hitting is subject to the condition that it should not be harsh or cause injury. Al-Hasan al-Basri said: this means that it should not cause pain.

‘Ata’ said: I said to Ibn ‘Abbaas, what is the kind of hitting that is not harsh? He said, Hitting with a siwaak and the like. [A siwaak is a small stick or twig used for cleaning the teeth - Translator]

The purpose behind this is not to hurt or humiliate the woman, rather it is intended to make her realize that she has transgressed against her husband’s rights, and that her husband has the right to set her straight and discipline her.

And Allaah knows best.
islamqa.com/index.php?ref=41199&ln=eng

I understand western men used to be able to do this*, but if you could find modern Christian teaching that allows a wife to be hit with a stick, you’d have a proper comparison.

*Note, they say this has been ‘compeltely debunked’ and therefore I don’t agree with them entirely for I have read *Sexual life in England, past and present *by Bloch which was done in the 1930s and surveyed English mores back several centuries.

 

[andzy]

First, people even in this forum sometimes tend to become a little too confrontational with each other. My “no comment” was regarding your implication about my (and apparently some other posters’) inability to “draw an argument based on fact” - a little too much generalization.

Second, nowhere was I comparing Muslim and Western violence against women - only marriage age. This I was doing to show a point that “our” society shouldn’t look down to others because of that.

Third, this post is about parents love towards their children (at least that’s what the title and intro says). So, I would say that the age of women getting married (and in a way even husbands’ attitude towards their wifes) is not directly relevant to this topic.

 

[Montalban]

First, people even in this forum sometimes tend to become a little too confrontational with each other. My “no comment” was regarding your implication about my (and apparently some other posters’) inability to “draw an argument based on fact” - a little too much generalization.

Second, nowhere was I comparing Muslim and Western violence against women - only marriage age. This I was doing to show a point that “our” society shouldn’t look down to others because of that.

Which is still a false comparison. Not only is it false because you’re comparing ages of marriage now (in Islam) to those then (in the west) you’ve shown no causal link to put the marriage ages in the west into a Christian context… it’s not central to Christianity… which is part of the proposal of the OP - that Moslems love this more than Catholics.

Third, this post is about parents love towards their children (at least that’s what the title and intro says). So, I would say that the age of women getting married (and in a way even husbands’ attitude towards their wifes) is not directly relevant to this topic.

If you look to the ‘proof’ of the OP about love, it’s how much children they have; when people start having children can directly affect how many that they have

If you’re at a child-bearing age from 13-40 and you start having children at 13 then you’re going to be capable of having more children than if you start at 32! That’s just logical!

Thus if you feel ‘confronted’ by this it’s simply because I’m urging you to face the reality of the issues raised here - false comparisons.

One can’t judge that a woman loves having children because she has more of them, because other factors may be at work. A woman who is forced into child-bearing’s not necessarily in love with the idea of having lots of children - and quite possibly damaging her health. The issues of violence against women have every relevance if a woman has no say over her own desires to have/not have children.

Thus in your case my criticism hits the mark. You’re comapring the wrong things together.

(generall) Women in Islam have lots of children because
a) they’re often in poorer societies (this is true of all women in poorer societies.
b) they have less say in issues
c) they start off having children at a younger age

All of these things I’ve shown. The best counter you’ve come up with is this appeal at indignation, which backs up your previous “No comment” post that backs up a post with a smilie in it!

 

[bobzills]

I don’t see anything inherently spiritual in having lots of kids and living in poverty. That’s ridiculous and a lot of those people are plain irresponsible.

This is the Catholic view?
Perhaps the Muslim view is different and that is why they appreciate having larger families?

 

[andzy]

Montalban,
I don’t want a pointless argument, so I will only point out that you’ve apparently confused me with some other poster, because you’re attributing to me things I haven’t said and do not believe in.
I’m sorry that my remark has ignited so much “emotions”.

 

[mgrfin]

That is one possibility. But the other possibility is that Catholics see too many children as a burden and as inconvenient, whereas Islam teaches Muslim women something different - that large families are more pleasing to Allah.

I don’t know what Mullahs teach. Obviously, with all the killings in the Middle East, and upping suicide bombers, and massacring children, they are not my favorite people.

peace

 

[bobzills]

I don’t know what Mullahs teach. Obviously, with all the killings in the Middle East, and upping suicide bombers, and massacring children, they are not my favorite people.

peace

Is it possible that similar comments could be made concerning the large number of abortions taking place in Catholic families in the USA.
Whatever, it still does not negate the fact that Muslim families are generally a bit larger than European Catholic families.

 

[mgrfin]

Is it possible that similar comments could be made concerning the large number of abortions taking place in Catholic families in the USA.
Whatever, it still does not negate the fact that Muslim families are generally a bit larger than European Catholic families.

Abortion is forbidden by the Catholic Church.

A lot of protestant churches have no opinion on this moral issue.

That one abortion is committed is abhorrent.

You are still out to do your anti-Catholic thing, bob, and we all know that.

peace

 

[lukewarm]

It’s just different societies, in 3rd world areas having more children is beneficial, in western society children are a complete financial drain. In 3rd world countries the children work the fields sell goods and take care of the parents if they make it to old age. You’re comparing apples and oranges.

 

[bobzills]

Abortion is forbidden by the Catholic Church.

A lot of protestant churches have no opinion on this moral issue.

That one abortion is committed is abhorrent.

You are still out to do your anti-Catholic thing, bob, and we all know that.

peace

Well, you brought up the suicide bombers in the Mideast as an example of the horrible things being done by a few Muslims. Is it really fair to be totally one-sided in this? I was only trying to be fair to each side by noting that there are also horrible things being done by Catholics in the USA, such as women aborting their children. And as we have seen from some of the posts, children are looked upon as a burden by some Catholics. Perhaps this goes to explain the lower birth rate among European Catholic women as compared to Muslim women.
"According to the Alan Guttmacher Institute, which tracks reproductive health data, non-Hispanic Catholic women of childbearing age are 29% more likely than their Protestant counterparts to have abortions (full study*). The rate is even higher–33%–if Hispanics are factored in. Another way of looking at it: while Protestant women make up about 54% of the population, they account for only 37% of the abortions. Catholic women make up 31% of the population and account for 31% of the abortions. "
Please see: beliefnet.com/story/63/story_6301_1.html

 

[mgrfin]

It’s just different societies, in 3rd world areas having more children is beneficial, in western society children are a complete financial drain. In 3rd world countries the children work the fields sell goods and take care of the parents if they make it to old age. You’re comparing apples and oranges.

The whole thread is silly, and irrelevant.

peace

 

[bobzills]

It’s just different societies, in 3rd world areas having more children is beneficial, in western society children are a complete financial drain. In 3rd world countries the children work the fields sell goods and take care of the parents if they make it to old age. You’re comparing apples and oranges.

To some extent this is true, but not completely. For example, it has been noted that Muslim women in European first world countries such as France, are having more children than Catholics. Further, news reports show Catholic Churches closing down and being sold off, while Islamic mosques are multiplying, as they are being built, even in Rome.