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DavidMark
Guest
**"… the Edifice which the Fathers of the Church reared after the passing of His First Apostle was an Edifice that rested in nowise upon the explicit directions of Christ Himself.The authority and features of their administration were wholly inferred, and indirectly derived, with more or less justification, from certain vague and fragmentary references which they found scattered amongst His utterances as recorded in the Gospel. Not one of the sacraments of the Church; not one of the rites and ceremonies which the Christian Fathers have elaborately devised and ostentatiously observed; not one of the elements of the severe discipline they rigorously imposed upon the primitive Christians; none of these reposed on the direct authority of Christ, or emanated from His specific utterances. Not one of these did Christ conceive, none did He specifically invest with sufficient authority to either interpret His Word, or to add to what He had not specifically enjoined.
For this reason, in later generations, voices were raised in protest against the self-appointed Authority which arrogated to itself privileges and powers which did not emanate from the clear text of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and which constituted a grave departure from the spirit which that Gospel did inculcate. They argued with force and justification that the canons promulgated by the Councils of the Church were not divinely-appointed laws, but were merely human devices which did not even rest upon the actual utterances of Jesus. Their contention centered around the fact that the vague and inconclusive words, addressed by Christ to Peter, “Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church,” could never justify the extreme measures, the elaborate ceremonials, the fettering creeds and dogmas, with which His successors have gradually burdened and obscured His Faith.
Had it been possible for the Church Fathers, whose unwarranted authority was thus fiercely assailed from every side, to refute the denunciations heaped upon them by quoting specific utterances of Christ regarding the future administration of His Church, or the nature of the authority of His Successors, they would surely have been capable of quenching the flame of controversy, and preserving the unity of Christendom. The Gospel, however, the only repository of the utterances of Christ, afforded no such shelter to these harassed leaders of the Church, who found themselves helpless in the face of the pitiless onslaught of their enemy, and who eventually had to submit to the forces of schism which invaded their ranks. **(Shoghi Effendi, The World Order of Baha’u’llah, p. 20)
For this reason, in later generations, voices were raised in protest against the self-appointed Authority which arrogated to itself privileges and powers which did not emanate from the clear text of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, and which constituted a grave departure from the spirit which that Gospel did inculcate. They argued with force and justification that the canons promulgated by the Councils of the Church were not divinely-appointed laws, but were merely human devices which did not even rest upon the actual utterances of Jesus. Their contention centered around the fact that the vague and inconclusive words, addressed by Christ to Peter, “Thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church,” could never justify the extreme measures, the elaborate ceremonials, the fettering creeds and dogmas, with which His successors have gradually burdened and obscured His Faith.
Had it been possible for the Church Fathers, whose unwarranted authority was thus fiercely assailed from every side, to refute the denunciations heaped upon them by quoting specific utterances of Christ regarding the future administration of His Church, or the nature of the authority of His Successors, they would surely have been capable of quenching the flame of controversy, and preserving the unity of Christendom. The Gospel, however, the only repository of the utterances of Christ, afforded no such shelter to these harassed leaders of the Church, who found themselves helpless in the face of the pitiless onslaught of their enemy, and who eventually had to submit to the forces of schism which invaded their ranks. **(Shoghi Effendi, The World Order of Baha’u’llah, p. 20)
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DavidMark
Guest
**Has either Christianity or Islam, to take as an instance two of the most widely diffused and outstanding among the world’s recognized religions, anything to offer that can measure with, or be regarded as equivalent to, either the Book of Bahá’u’lláh’s Covenant or to the Will and Testament of 'Abdu’l-Bahá?
Does the text of either the Gospel or the Qur’án confer sufficient authority upon those leaders and councils that have claimed the right and assumed the function of interpreting the provisions of their sacred scriptures and of administering the affairs of their respective communities?
Could Peter, the admitted chief of the Apostles, or the Imam Ali, the cousin and legitimate successor of the Prophet, produce in support of the primacy with which both had been invested written and explicit affirmations from Christ and Muhammad that could have silenced those who either among their contemporaries or in a later age have repudiated their authority and, by their action, precipitated the schisms that persist until the present day?
Where, we may confidently ask, in the recorded sayings of Jesus Christ, whether in the matter of succession or in the provision of a set of specific laws and clearly defined administrative ordinances, as distinguished from purely spiritual principles, can we find anything approaching the detailed injunctions, laws and warnings that abound in the authenticated utterances of both Bahá’u’lláh and 'Abdu’l-Bahá?
Can any passage of the Qur’án, which in respect to its legal code, its administrative and devotional ordinances marks already a notable advance over previous and more corrupted Revelations, be construed as placing upon an unassailable basis the undoubted authority with which Muhammad had, verbally and on several occasions, invested His successor?**(Shoghi Effendi, The World Order of Baha’u’llah, p. 145)
Does the text of either the Gospel or the Qur’án confer sufficient authority upon those leaders and councils that have claimed the right and assumed the function of interpreting the provisions of their sacred scriptures and of administering the affairs of their respective communities?
Could Peter, the admitted chief of the Apostles, or the Imam Ali, the cousin and legitimate successor of the Prophet, produce in support of the primacy with which both had been invested written and explicit affirmations from Christ and Muhammad that could have silenced those who either among their contemporaries or in a later age have repudiated their authority and, by their action, precipitated the schisms that persist until the present day?
Where, we may confidently ask, in the recorded sayings of Jesus Christ, whether in the matter of succession or in the provision of a set of specific laws and clearly defined administrative ordinances, as distinguished from purely spiritual principles, can we find anything approaching the detailed injunctions, laws and warnings that abound in the authenticated utterances of both Bahá’u’lláh and 'Abdu’l-Bahá?
Can any passage of the Qur’án, which in respect to its legal code, its administrative and devotional ordinances marks already a notable advance over previous and more corrupted Revelations, be construed as placing upon an unassailable basis the undoubted authority with which Muhammad had, verbally and on several occasions, invested His successor?**(Shoghi Effendi, The World Order of Baha’u’llah, p. 145)
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lwest
Guest
markdavid,
you’ve said that you’re not Catholic so i dont’ expect you to understand and please dont’ expect me to buy into your mentality. I trust the authority of the Church and all of her Teachings which came from Christ. I’ll pray for you but I’m not going back and forth with you on this. This is a Catholic forum, dear, did you really expect to hear anything different?
you’ve said that you’re not Catholic so i dont’ expect you to understand and please dont’ expect me to buy into your mentality. I trust the authority of the Church and all of her Teachings which came from Christ. I’ll pray for you but I’m not going back and forth with you on this. This is a Catholic forum, dear, did you really expect to hear anything different?
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DavidMark
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OK Jharek. Peace.
What I find wonderfully problematic is the life of Christ from beginning to end.
Everyone before, and everyone after has to decide how to make sense of the miracles of His beginning, His ministry and His end. Even some of the miracles are not agreed upon…
like turning a clay bird into a live one in Gospel of Thomas & the Qur’án.
When Christ miraculously healed someone, He told them to tell no one, but go to the priest etc. But they would publish it abroad, and His movements would become restricted.
Now, miracles are not a proof for Baha’is. I was knocked down by the blast of this trumpet.
And I find everyone in “state of strange stupor” They are not even waiting for the Advent. They don’t know what signs to look for; they are just content in their traditions. I challenge any one to give me one sign that is to appear at the Advent, that has not been fulfilled.
And if anyone thinks this is not on thread topic, let’s split it off to another thread.
What I find wonderfully problematic is the life of Christ from beginning to end.
Everyone before, and everyone after has to decide how to make sense of the miracles of His beginning, His ministry and His end. Even some of the miracles are not agreed upon…
like turning a clay bird into a live one in Gospel of Thomas & the Qur’án.
When Christ miraculously healed someone, He told them to tell no one, but go to the priest etc. But they would publish it abroad, and His movements would become restricted.
Now, miracles are not a proof for Baha’is. I was knocked down by the blast of this trumpet.
And I find everyone in “state of strange stupor” They are not even waiting for the Advent. They don’t know what signs to look for; they are just content in their traditions. I challenge any one to give me one sign that is to appear at the Advent, that has not been fulfilled.
And if anyone thinks this is not on thread topic, let’s split it off to another thread.
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KathleenGee
Guest
Hi DavidMark,
You have to read the Scripture in context of the Church, and you never had that type of education.
If you atleast had some exposure to priestly catechesis, you would then see. I see your interpretations and they don’t have the Church…but outsiders looking from afar…
I find daily Mass another form of catechesis when the priest gives the homily, gives us instruction on the context and social conditions of the passages…it all ringing true to living out every day life…no cryptic or confusing parts to lead us to the Bridge of Nowhere…
Christ did not call us to a life of confusion, of perpetuating us as lost sheep. He gave us shephards to guide and protect us, and to lead us to be in union with Him in the next life…in the context of community and His kingdom of followers.
You have to read the Scripture in context of the Church, and you never had that type of education.
If you atleast had some exposure to priestly catechesis, you would then see. I see your interpretations and they don’t have the Church…but outsiders looking from afar…
I find daily Mass another form of catechesis when the priest gives the homily, gives us instruction on the context and social conditions of the passages…it all ringing true to living out every day life…no cryptic or confusing parts to lead us to the Bridge of Nowhere…
Christ did not call us to a life of confusion, of perpetuating us as lost sheep. He gave us shephards to guide and protect us, and to lead us to be in union with Him in the next life…in the context of community and His kingdom of followers.
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lwest
Guest
I don’t know how you were taught or what your psychological profile might be but you are mistaken. You need prayers to straighten out your confused and disconnected logic. May the grace of God and His Son, Jesus, reach into the depths of your heart.
But you have a lot of nerve showing up on this post and contesting that Jesus isn’t the Son of the Most High. Are you trying to get us to stray from the Truth? It won’t work. Your efforts mean nothing.
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DavidMark
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Iwest: Where did you see me contest the Son of God? Nowhere.
I’m the one who has repeatedly tried remind both Christians and Muslims that we believe Christ was born of a Virgin, and to explain to Muslims the special station of Christ, and that, that even tho’ Baha’i came from a Muslim matrix, it has resumed use of the term Son of God again, much to the Muslims dismay. But it doesn’t matter what source I quote, it does not sink into hearts, like reading Sermon on the Mount to a Hassidic Jew…all the goodness is swept away with bitterness and citical cynicism.
The very theme of this thread is dusty with antiquity and makes me ill to read, as if these children of God have no faculty for adoration of Him…1500 years of enmity between Christians and Muslims, accusing them of disbelief in God. Hard hearts, very hard.
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lwest
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Then I stand corrected and I apologize. I’m just having a hard time following what you’re trying to say sometimes. That’s what i get for trying to be online when in the hospital with my dd. i should tend to what I have in front of me hear and not worry about forum discussions at this point. A life lesson for me.
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DavidMark
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I hope you recover quickly my friend; accept this prayer:
Thy Name is my healing, O my God, and remembrance of Thee is my remedy. Nearness to Thee is my hope, and love for Thee is my companion. Thy mercy to me is my healing and my succor in both this world and the world to come. Thou, verily, art the All-Bountiful, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise.
Thy Name is my healing, O my God, and remembrance of Thee is my remedy. Nearness to Thee is my hope, and love for Thee is my companion. Thy mercy to me is my healing and my succor in both this world and the world to come. Thou, verily, art the All-Bountiful, the All-Knowing, the All-Wise.
- Bahá’u’lláh
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Irish_Catholic_1
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Utter nonsense
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NoWings
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Have you been to the Baha’i thread to voice your criticisms?
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grace_singh
Guest
Muslims deny the crucifixion and resurrection of Jesus from the dead, as well as His Sonship, deity, and pre-existence.
Baha’is affirm the crucifixion, yet deny a bodily resurrection from the dead, opting instead for a “spiritual” resurrection of Jesus.
Mohammad’s bones lie in Medina, Baha’u’llah’s bones lie near Akka, yet Christians affirm that Jesus’ bones are within His body still, as He is alive in heaven, risen from the dead, and at the right hand of God.
DavidMark, the Baha’i Faith has many beautiful prayers, traditions, and tolerant and gracious beliefs and attitudes. yet if God did not send or speak through Mohammad, then God did not also speak through Baha’u’llah.
my friend, after Messiah no one else is coming. Jews wait for Messiah, and Christians wait for His second coming, yet none of thse communities look to or recognize anyone coming after Messiah, as no one will be able to do what Messiah will do, or even come close. many of Mohammad’s standards and commands actually take us back wards from what Jesus Christ has taught and demonstrated. Mohammad may have been a pious and sincere individual, and a very bright leader and commander. yet unless he himself was the return of Messiah (which he never claimed to be and was not) there is no place for him in Abrahamic history.
i encourage you to seek the Truth about Jesus. not from hearsay or from the faith of others, because no one can impart faith to another person, rather, i encourage you to ask God Himself what is true about Jesus. i know you believe that you already know what is true about Jesus, based upon your Baha’i faith which you trust and hold to be true. yet what we believe or hold to be sensible and true may not be such, and we will not know until we ask the Almighty and not any man, or ourselves, or the confines of our own beliefs, views, or reasoning.
God bless you and work in your heart, David.
Baha’is affirm the crucifixion, yet deny a bodily resurrection from the dead, opting instead for a “spiritual” resurrection of Jesus.
Mohammad’s bones lie in Medina, Baha’u’llah’s bones lie near Akka, yet Christians affirm that Jesus’ bones are within His body still, as He is alive in heaven, risen from the dead, and at the right hand of God.
DavidMark, the Baha’i Faith has many beautiful prayers, traditions, and tolerant and gracious beliefs and attitudes. yet if God did not send or speak through Mohammad, then God did not also speak through Baha’u’llah.
my friend, after Messiah no one else is coming. Jews wait for Messiah, and Christians wait for His second coming, yet none of thse communities look to or recognize anyone coming after Messiah, as no one will be able to do what Messiah will do, or even come close. many of Mohammad’s standards and commands actually take us back wards from what Jesus Christ has taught and demonstrated. Mohammad may have been a pious and sincere individual, and a very bright leader and commander. yet unless he himself was the return of Messiah (which he never claimed to be and was not) there is no place for him in Abrahamic history.
i encourage you to seek the Truth about Jesus. not from hearsay or from the faith of others, because no one can impart faith to another person, rather, i encourage you to ask God Himself what is true about Jesus. i know you believe that you already know what is true about Jesus, based upon your Baha’i faith which you trust and hold to be true. yet what we believe or hold to be sensible and true may not be such, and we will not know until we ask the Almighty and not any man, or ourselves, or the confines of our own beliefs, views, or reasoning.
God bless you and work in your heart, David.
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DavidMark
Guest
I grew up loving Chirst, just like a relative of mine Archdeacon of Clonfert, George Townshend, who wrote Christ and Baha’u’llah. For some of us, we become Baha’is because we recognize the spirit of Jesus again. I became a Bahá’í BECAUSE of my love for Christ!
I think we all blow a lot of hot air here sometimes. No one’s going to get converted here; but hopefully we share some useful information.I truly am not trying to water down someones faith in God; but I hope to genuinely encourage search into Bahá’í, so that when indifference gives out and real alarm does go up, and pogroms spread, the information will be available.
But some, like brother Mosacked, are entangled with names. He doesn’t spell them right, calls others names, or insults what they are devoted to, and gets divine names confused.
And Christians forget a little verse in Revelation 3:12 where Jesus is whispering to Saint John the Divine, on Patmos, that He will have a new name when He returns in the Glory of the Father (that is The Glory of God, in Arabic …not Americanish)
Therefore did BAHA’U’LLAH cry, “O God, deliver us from the sea of names!”(Abdu’l-Baha, Divine Philosophy, p. 32)
ELOI ELOI and ILÁHí ILÁHí both mean O **my **God! O my God!
O my God! O my God! Unite the hearts of Thy servants, and reveal to them Thy great purpose.
May they follow Thy commandments and abide in Thy law. Help them, O God, in their endeavor, and grant them strength to serve Thee. O God! Leave them not to themselves, but guide their steps by the light of Thy knowledge, and cheer their hearts by Thy love. Verily, Thou art their Helper and their Lord. - Bahá’u’lláh
And Muslims are just like every other religion, some know God and some don’t.
I think we all blow a lot of hot air here sometimes. No one’s going to get converted here; but hopefully we share some useful information.I truly am not trying to water down someones faith in God; but I hope to genuinely encourage search into Bahá’í, so that when indifference gives out and real alarm does go up, and pogroms spread, the information will be available.
But some, like brother Mosacked, are entangled with names. He doesn’t spell them right, calls others names, or insults what they are devoted to, and gets divine names confused.
And Christians forget a little verse in Revelation 3:12 where Jesus is whispering to Saint John the Divine, on Patmos, that He will have a new name when He returns in the Glory of the Father (that is The Glory of God, in Arabic …not Americanish)
Therefore did BAHA’U’LLAH cry, “O God, deliver us from the sea of names!”(Abdu’l-Baha, Divine Philosophy, p. 32)
ELOI ELOI and ILÁHí ILÁHí both mean O **my **God! O my God!
O my God! O my God! Unite the hearts of Thy servants, and reveal to them Thy great purpose.
May they follow Thy commandments and abide in Thy law. Help them, O God, in their endeavor, and grant them strength to serve Thee. O God! Leave them not to themselves, but guide their steps by the light of Thy knowledge, and cheer their hearts by Thy love. Verily, Thou art their Helper and their Lord. - Bahá’u’lláh
And Muslims are just like every other religion, some know God and some don’t.
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grace_singh
Guest
David ~
yet according to Christ Himself, when He comes again He will come on clouds of great glory, He will subdue all nations under His feet, He will restore Israel, reign on earth, and judge the living and the dead.
Baha’u’llah did none of those things, and these are literal, not allegorical or spiritual prophecies.
one must also consider that in light of Judeo-Christian scripture, Mohammad has no place in prophecy unless he was Christ returned, something he never claimed.
Christ will come again as Himself, in the flesh, David, when He returns as He went, on clouds of glory. He will not be reborn or return as a Persian Shi’a Muslim mystic and Quranic commentator claiming prophethood and the fulfilment of every major religious prophecy known to mankind.
Baha’u’llah was a truly remarkable, sincere, devoted, and passionate man who truly believed in his mission, and who wrote some of the most beautiful and capticating religious verses the world has ever seen. yet He is not Messiah, and the world still waits with hope, groaning, and expectation for Messiah to return.
the good news is that Messiah lives, David. He is risen from the dead, alive now and forever, and still able to save, redeem, enlighten, and forgive.
yet according to Christ Himself, when He comes again He will come on clouds of great glory, He will subdue all nations under His feet, He will restore Israel, reign on earth, and judge the living and the dead.
Baha’u’llah did none of those things, and these are literal, not allegorical or spiritual prophecies.
one must also consider that in light of Judeo-Christian scripture, Mohammad has no place in prophecy unless he was Christ returned, something he never claimed.
Christ will come again as Himself, in the flesh, David, when He returns as He went, on clouds of glory. He will not be reborn or return as a Persian Shi’a Muslim mystic and Quranic commentator claiming prophethood and the fulfilment of every major religious prophecy known to mankind.
Baha’u’llah was a truly remarkable, sincere, devoted, and passionate man who truly believed in his mission, and who wrote some of the most beautiful and capticating religious verses the world has ever seen. yet He is not Messiah, and the world still waits with hope, groaning, and expectation for Messiah to return.
the good news is that Messiah lives, David. He is risen from the dead, alive now and forever, and still able to save, redeem, enlighten, and forgive.
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DavidMark
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Brother Ralph, you talk as if you touched Jesus recently. Of course Jesus is alive! I never denied that Jesus Christ was risen and fully aware of all His sheep and well able to help them.
The three Persons you stress were and always shall be primarily spiritual. And we will never need anyone else…except for His promise to return in a new name, and as Everlasting Father, who extends the Kingdom on earth. Many cling to the station and name of ‘the Son’. We see a new Manifestation of God in the station of the Father.
That is not God the Father, whom ‘no man has ever seen’ but the Lord of Hosts promised by Isaiah, and the Lord of the Vineyard promised by Jesus. It is the same light in a new lamp; that’s how God does it.
Will you be like Jews and keep clinging to the old lamp when the light has appeared elsewhere?
** (\o/) **
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Byzantine_Wolf
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I’m sure he has. Tell DavidMark to keep his Bahai proselytizing in that thread.
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NoWings
Guest
I am not my Baha’i’s keeper.I’m sure he has. Tell DavidMark to keep his Bahai proselytizing in that thread.
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DavidMark
Guest
Dear Grace (It’s OK to reply on the Baha’i Faith thread if you want, or not…) This thread was started by Mosacked who arrogated to himself the presumption to say ‘God has nothing to do with Muslims’ and that i’m anti-christ, and a number of other blasts. To me it is the twittering of a sparrow.
How can Baha’u’llah be “truly remarkable, sincere, devoted, and passionate” and still be a liar or lunatic? He was no misleader…but rather the Leader of Mankind.
For us He is the Glorious Lord. What does this mean? Simply, the most steadfast Truth-Speaker, a Warner, a Law-Giver. Rev. 1:14 says His eyes were like “flame”, Rev. 2:18 says He has “feet of bronze” and Rev. 19:15 says a sword issues from His mouth. These are all symbols which indicate His immovablitity, His discernment, and power of decisive mandates. These symbols and parables are meant to sift the wheat from the chaff.
You said ‘Baha’u’llah did none of those things’ but we say He has and will. Israel has returned, and the nations are being welded together, and not even by Baha’is, but by destinies we cannot control. Not with Cecil B. de’Mille cinamatography, but with appropriate meekness and majesty.I would remind those who wonder why we think so to read Kitab-i-Iqan.
reference.bahai.org/en/t/b/KI/ki-1.html
In it, He spents about 60 pages interpreting Matthew 24:29-31 and clouds, as you know rise up from the earth. They do not come down. These “clouds” were His human nature, which concealed His divinity from people without eyes to see, as well as the smoke thrown up by enemies, who “neither come in nor allow others to come in.” Muhammad was the Prophet, who comes from the “brethren” of Israel.
But let the seekers inquire, and the stubborn conspire, and all will become clear.The Word itself has always been the inescapable proof and determinant.
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grace_singh
Guest
because he was mislead, David. he sincerely believed that God was using him and that he was the next and current manifestation of God, the return of Christ, the avatar Kalki, the Mahdi, etc. but he was not. he may well have had real and valid spiritual experiences, but that does not mean that those experiences were of God. like Mohammad, who also had spiritual experiences and believed that God was calling and using him, he was decieved by the Enemy and was used to found a religion with many notable and admirable points, but which is not ultimately from God.
those symbols from Revelation refer to Christ, David. who speaks in much of the book, and refers to His second coming, when He will judge the world, subdue the nations, restore Israel, judge the living and the dead, and rule for 1,000 years as King.
Israel now exists as its own country, but not thanks to Baha’u’llah, David. rather, thanks in large part to the Holocaust and the very visible need for a Jewish homeland. Israel still has many Gentile enemies, something it will not have when Messiah returns.
the Baha’is have a great flair and love for interpreting Judeo-Christian and Islamic scripture allegorically or symbolically when no such symbolic or metaphoric meaning has ever been so read by Jews, Christians, or Muslims, and when there is no indication at all within the text for a figurative interpretation. Messiah will be Jewish, David, not Persian or Muslim. He will be a descendant of David, not Mohammad.
after God has sent His Living Word (His Son) to die on the cross, and who said from the cross “it is finished” before He rose three days later, why would God need to send a mere human man, or men, generations later with new books of ink and paper, who would die and remain in their graves?
Jesus is risen, David, and He is alive forever more. His resurrection was not merely “spiritual” but was bodily. He affirms this in Luke’s Gospel as we see here :
**While they were still talking about this, Jesus Himself stood among them and said to them, “Peace be with you.”
They were startled and frightened, thinking they saw a ghost. He said to them, “Why are you troubled, and why do doubts rise in your minds? Look at My hands and My feet. It is I myself! Touch Me and see; a ghost does not have flesh and bones, as you see I have.”
When He had said this, He showed them His hands and feet. And while they still did not believe it because of joy and amazement, He asked them, “Do you have anything here to eat?” They gave Him a piece of broiled fish, and He took it and ate it in their presence.
He said to them, “This is what I told you while I was still with you: Everything must be fulfilled that is written about Me in the Law of Moses, the Prophets and the Psalms.” ** (Luke 24:36-44)
so you see, Jesus is risen from the dead, and is alive now body and soul in heaven, eternally Man and God. He conquered death, destroyed the power of Satan over believers, and will one day return to restore pecae, real peace, destroy all wickedness, and rule the world.
and He promises that any who come to Him He will by no means turn away.
- Status