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Sam_777
Guest
Isa Almisry please free up some PM space, I want to PM you something.
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R_not
Guest
Wow, thanks Sam_777, that was a very good website. I appreciate you posting it.Sorry to post such things, but you have to know the pre-Islamic history on why this stone became black:
“In the book of “the legendary in quran” , page 16,17 it said:{ that nudeness was for a reason, as there were sexual worshiping rituals taking place inside that Makkahin godly house in the ancient epochs }
In the book of" the father of prophets Ibrahim", by Muhammad hosny abdul-hammid, published in Cairo, page 92, he said:{ there was a pagan ritual performed by women, as they were touching the black stone by their menstrual blood, as the menstrual blood for the ancient pagan was the secret of birth, as they believed that, woman gives the blood and man gives the semen and the spirit is given by god They were assimilating the first act done by the moon god (Alh) when he slept with the sun god (Alat) So they were celebrating that occasion as the gods (the moon and the sun) did before, they were doing the same thing again (See also" the legendary and the heritage" by Sayed Al-Kemny, page 160,162.”
English Source:
fatherzakaria.net/books/qaf/pdf/58-Episode.pdf
RIGHT ومن تلك الطقوس ما يثير الاندهاش، ففي (كتاب أبو الأنبياء إبراهيم الخليل. تأليف محمد حسني عبد الحميد نشر دار السعادة القاهرة ص 92) يقول: إن الحجر الأسود كان أبيضَ، لكنه اسود من مس الحيض في الجاهلية"!
(5) وجاء تعلقيا على هذه الرواية الإسلامية في (كتاب الأسطورة في القرآن ص 17و19) "أي أنه كان هناك طقس لدى الجاهليين تؤديه النساء في الحَجَر، وهو مس الحجر الأسود بدماء الحيض، ودماء الحيض بالذات!!! وقد كان دم الحيض عند المرأة في اعتقاد الأقدمين هو سر الميلاد، فمن المرأة الدم، ومن الرجل المَنِيُّ، ومن الإله الروح … إنهم يماثلون الفعل الأول الذي قام به … إله القمر عندما جامع الشمس الإلهة إلات].
7ـ وجاء في (كتاب الملل والنحل لأبي القاسم الشهرستاني ص 247) طقس كان يمارس وهو الاحتكاك بالحجر الأسود.
8ـ وقد قلنا في حلقة سابقة أن كلمة حج] مأخوذة أصلا من فعل الاحتكاك، فهي في أصلها من ح ك] مع الأخذ في الاعتبار هيئة الحجر الأسود وشكله. (في كتاب الأسطورة في القرآن ص 17و19)
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Arabic Source:
islamexplained.com/Default.aspx?tabid=256
I hope we get answer for this Youtube video from my fellow Muslims.
youtube.com/watch?v=xDQreJp9iFY
And it does seem to indicate that the black stone is indeed worshipped as an idol. This doesn’t surprise me. The part about the article in a newspaper saying, ‘we do not kiss the black stone as a costumed ritual, but as obedience for almight god’s commandment.’
This is a glaring example that the god of islam and the God of the Jews and Christians are indeed NOT the same.
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notsmart
Guest
This is the debate you should read, rather than find a mention of. Read it, its very enlightening. It is exactly what I was trying to no avail tell the poster who claimed wrongly that there was NEVER a time the Church questioned if certain people had souls or not…read it and weep tears of pain.
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cathopologist
Guest
Sam_777, why did the Qur’an refer the Sabians as part of the group in the “People of the Book”? Aren’t People of the Book group supposedly monotheists?
Many Muslims give me different answers. Since you can think outside of the box (unlike some here), i’d like to read your perspective on this.
Many Muslims give me different answers. Since you can think outside of the box (unlike some here), i’d like to read your perspective on this.
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happynoodlecat
Guest
quite frankly, I really wonder about this whole ritual when you consider the origins.
PAGAN HERITAGE OF WORSHIP AT THE KAABA
According to HADITH, (Sahih Bukhari Volume 3, Book 43, Number 658) the Kaaba in Mecca was a center of idol-worship with 360 idols. Mohammad dumped the 360 idols but retained for Islam, the Kaaba with its Black Stone, justifying it with a mythical claim that Abraham and Ishmael originally built it. But there is no historical or archaeological proof of the existence of the Kaaba beyond a few hundred years before Mohammad’s lifetime.
Mohammad’s own words disprove any connection that Abraham and Ishmael supposedly had with the Kaaba. Mohammed says in the Hadith that the worship center in Mecca was built 40 years before the Temple at Jerusalem. But the truth is, Abraham and Ishmael were long dead and gone by then.
Sahih Bukhari Vol. 4, Book 55, No. 636:
Narrated Abu Dhaar: I said, “O Allah’s Apostle! Which mosque was built first?” He replied, “Al-Masjid-ul-Haram.” I asked, “Which (was built) next?” He replied, “Al-Masjid-ul-Aqs-a (i.e. Jerusalem).”** I ASKED, “WHAT WAS THE PERIOD IN BETWEEN THEM?” HE REPLIED, “FORTY (YEARS).”**
The Temple at Jerusalem was built by Solomon around 958-951 BC. THIS IMPLIES THAT IF MOHAMMAD WAS TO BE BELIEVED, THE KAABA WAS BUILT APPROXIMATELY AROUND 998-991 BC. BUT ABRAHAM LIVED AROUND 2000 BC. AND THE QURAN SAYS THAT ABRAHAM BUILT IT. IF MOHAMMAD IS CORRECT, THEN QURAN IS WRONG. BUT IF QURAN IS CORRECT IN STATING THAT ABRAHAM AND ISHMAEL BUILT THE KABA (SURA 2:125), THEN HADITH IS WRONG. Now, WHO IS THE LIAR HERE?
The Kaaba has nothing to do with Abraham or Ishmael. It is a place with pagan heritage.
PAGAN HERITAGE OF THE Black Stone
The pagan gods of pre-Islamic Arabia were worshipped in the form of rectangular stones or rocks. For example, pagan deity ‘Al-Lat’, mentioned in the Quran (Sura 53:19) and believed by pre-Islamic pagans to be one of the ‘daughters of Allah’, was once venerated as a cubic rock at Ta’if in Saudi Arabia. An edifice was built over the rock to mark it apart as a house of worship. Read about it from KITAB AL-ASNAM:
Al-lat stood in al-Ta’if, and was more recent than Manah. SHE WAS A CUBIC ROCK beside which a certain Jew used to prepare his barley porridge (sawiq). Her custody was in the hands of the banu-'Attab ibn-Malik of the Thayif, who had BUILT AN EDIFICE OVER HER. …]She is the idol which God mentioned when He said, “Have you seen Al-lat and al-'Uzza [Sura 53:19]?” [THE BOOK OF IDOLS, p 14; (translation of KITAB AL-ASNAM ) by HISHAM IBN-AL-KALBI, 819 CE, translated by NABIH AMIN FARIS, 1952]
The ENCYCLOPEDIA BRITANNICA enlightens us to the pre-Islamic practice of using stones and rocks as objects of pagan worship.
“**A PRINCIPAL SACRED OBJECT IN ARABIAN RELIGION WAS THE STONE, EITHER A ROCK OUTCROPPING OR A LARGE BOULDER, OFTEN A RECTANGULAR OR IRREGULAR BLACK BASALTIC STONE … Of the numerous baetyls, THE BEST KNOWN IS THE BLACK STONE OF THE KA’BAH AT MECCA, which became the central shrine object of Islam.” (Encyclopedia Britannica, Arabian Religions, p1059, 1979)
**
Can Islam deny that the Black Stone was one among many stones and idols venerated at the Kaaba by the pre-Islamic pagan religion? The Black Stone was kissed during pre-Islamic pagan worship. Though Mohammad threw out 360 other objects at the Kaaba, he retained this Black Stone and continued the practice of kissing it. It is this same stone that pre-Islamic ‘PAGANS’ once kissed – that Muslims love to kiss today when they visit Mecca.
so um…what do Muslims say to history in reference to this?
PAGAN HERITAGE OF WORSHIP AT THE KAABA
According to HADITH, (Sahih Bukhari Volume 3, Book 43, Number 658) the Kaaba in Mecca was a center of idol-worship with 360 idols. Mohammad dumped the 360 idols but retained for Islam, the Kaaba with its Black Stone, justifying it with a mythical claim that Abraham and Ishmael originally built it. But there is no historical or archaeological proof of the existence of the Kaaba beyond a few hundred years before Mohammad’s lifetime.
Mohammad’s own words disprove any connection that Abraham and Ishmael supposedly had with the Kaaba. Mohammed says in the Hadith that the worship center in Mecca was built 40 years before the Temple at Jerusalem. But the truth is, Abraham and Ishmael were long dead and gone by then.
Sahih Bukhari Vol. 4, Book 55, No. 636:
Narrated Abu Dhaar: I said, “O Allah’s Apostle! Which mosque was built first?” He replied, “Al-Masjid-ul-Haram.” I asked, “Which (was built) next?” He replied, “Al-Masjid-ul-Aqs-a (i.e. Jerusalem).”** I ASKED, “WHAT WAS THE PERIOD IN BETWEEN THEM?” HE REPLIED, “FORTY (YEARS).”**
The Temple at Jerusalem was built by Solomon around 958-951 BC. THIS IMPLIES THAT IF MOHAMMAD WAS TO BE BELIEVED, THE KAABA WAS BUILT APPROXIMATELY AROUND 998-991 BC. BUT ABRAHAM LIVED AROUND 2000 BC. AND THE QURAN SAYS THAT ABRAHAM BUILT IT. IF MOHAMMAD IS CORRECT, THEN QURAN IS WRONG. BUT IF QURAN IS CORRECT IN STATING THAT ABRAHAM AND ISHMAEL BUILT THE KABA (SURA 2:125), THEN HADITH IS WRONG. Now, WHO IS THE LIAR HERE?
The Kaaba has nothing to do with Abraham or Ishmael. It is a place with pagan heritage.
PAGAN HERITAGE OF THE Black Stone
The pagan gods of pre-Islamic Arabia were worshipped in the form of rectangular stones or rocks. For example, pagan deity ‘Al-Lat’, mentioned in the Quran (Sura 53:19) and believed by pre-Islamic pagans to be one of the ‘daughters of Allah’, was once venerated as a cubic rock at Ta’if in Saudi Arabia. An edifice was built over the rock to mark it apart as a house of worship. Read about it from KITAB AL-ASNAM:
Al-lat stood in al-Ta’if, and was more recent than Manah. SHE WAS A CUBIC ROCK beside which a certain Jew used to prepare his barley porridge (sawiq). Her custody was in the hands of the banu-'Attab ibn-Malik of the Thayif, who had BUILT AN EDIFICE OVER HER. …]She is the idol which God mentioned when He said, “Have you seen Al-lat and al-'Uzza [Sura 53:19]?” [THE BOOK OF IDOLS, p 14; (translation of KITAB AL-ASNAM ) by HISHAM IBN-AL-KALBI, 819 CE, translated by NABIH AMIN FARIS, 1952]
The ENCYCLOPEDIA BRITANNICA enlightens us to the pre-Islamic practice of using stones and rocks as objects of pagan worship.
“**A PRINCIPAL SACRED OBJECT IN ARABIAN RELIGION WAS THE STONE, EITHER A ROCK OUTCROPPING OR A LARGE BOULDER, OFTEN A RECTANGULAR OR IRREGULAR BLACK BASALTIC STONE … Of the numerous baetyls, THE BEST KNOWN IS THE BLACK STONE OF THE KA’BAH AT MECCA, which became the central shrine object of Islam.” (Encyclopedia Britannica, Arabian Religions, p1059, 1979)
**
Can Islam deny that the Black Stone was one among many stones and idols venerated at the Kaaba by the pre-Islamic pagan religion? The Black Stone was kissed during pre-Islamic pagan worship. Though Mohammad threw out 360 other objects at the Kaaba, he retained this Black Stone and continued the practice of kissing it. It is this same stone that pre-Islamic ‘PAGANS’ once kissed – that Muslims love to kiss today when they visit Mecca.
so um…what do Muslims say to history in reference to this?
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Sam_777
Guest
I’m not aware that they are considered to be part of “People of the Book”, according to our Islamic teaching, the People of the Book are only Jews & Christians, as explained in these links:
(E) en.wikipedia.org/wiki/People_of_the_Book
(A) islamtoday.net/pen/show_question_content.cfm?id=7674
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cathopologist
Guest
Yes they are:
"Those who believe and those who are Jews and Christians and Sabians, whoever believes in “Allah” and the Last Day and do righteous good deeds shall have their reward with their Lord. On them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve." - Qur’an 2:62
[
5:69Sabians**Pooya/Ali Commentary **5:69](http://www.al-islam.org/quran/defau...bic=on&tshakir=on&talicommentary=on&wrapat=70)
There are also accounts of modern-day Sabians who accuse Mohammad of “stealing” their rituals as he was once, one of their own.
[
"I saw the prophet when I was a pagan. He was saying to the people, ‘if you want to save yourselves, accept that there is no God but Allah’ At this moment I noticed a man behind him saying ‘he is a sabi.’ When I asked somebody who he was he told me he was ‘Abu Lahab, his uncle." ****(96)****Both ‘Ibn Jurayi (d. 767) and ‘Ata ‘ibn Abi Rabah (d.732) wrote:**"I saw the prophet when I was a pagan. He was saying to the people, ‘if you want to save yourselves, accept that there is no God but Allah’ At this moment I noticed a man behind him saying ‘he is a sabi.’ When I asked somebody who he was he told me he was ‘Abu Lahab, his uncle’ Of the relationship between the Sabians who lived in Sawad (in Iraq ) and Mohammed it is mention that the polytheists of Mecca were heard to say of Mohammed “he has become a Sabian.” **(97)
‘Ibn Jurayi (who lived in the 8th century) wrote:**" He (Mohammed) is a Sabian" **(98)http://www.geocities.com/mandaeans/Sabians8.html
‘Abd al-Rahman ‘ibn Zayd (d798 AD) wrote:The prophet and his companions are referred to as** “these are the Sabians” comparing Mohammed to the Sabians ****(99)**%between%](http://www.geocities.com/mandaeans/Sabians8.html)
Although not part of the discussion, it does bring into perspectives, the true origins of Islam as we know today. What do you think, my friend?
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Sam_777
Guest
Being mentioned in Quran doesn’t mean that they are considered to be with the People of the Book! even if they worship one God or are good people, get back to my Arabic reference for more details, its more accurate.
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cathopologist
Guest
But they are, my friend. Originally, People of the Book also included the Sabians, alongside Jews and Christians. Some Muslims nowadays also include the Sikhs as part of that group.
A revelation is a shut book. There is no room for error or changes. The Qur’an is an evolving text and will continue to do so as how it did the past 1400 years. If you have an old copy of the Qur’an in English, you would notice differences immediately if you compare it with a present-day edition. Grammatical changes? Is the word “Sabian” even considered to be a ‘correction’? Obviously not.
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Sam_777
Guest
You should get your information from Arabic Muslim cleric, not from ordinary Muslims, the Arabic link I provided mention clearly that the Sabians are not included in the people of the book, even though they are good people and have many good deeds, but when it comes to the Islamic dogma its diffrent, for example when a Muslim man wants to marry from the people of the book, he can marry only from either the Jews or the Christians exclusively.
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cathopologist
Guest
I totally agree with you. In fact, it was a Muslim cleric who told me about the Sabians (as part of the People of the Book). The subject came about when he asked me why i wanted to learn more about Islam and told him about my Brahminical roots. This was several years ago. In 1995 i believe, as i was still doing my National Service back then.
Very little is known about the Sabians, but i did some research and found some in libraries and on the internet (the link i provided). The internet link provides quite a satisfactory summary (when compared to library books), which is why i provided you with the link.
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R_not
Guest
Sam_777, I almost came to tears over your words. And especially this, ‘WHY I SHED TEARS WHEN I HEAR JESUS WORDS, WHAT MAKES MY SOUL SO ATTRACTED TO THOSE WORDS!. WHY WHY WHY !!!’
I was really moved by your whole telling of yourself on that thread.
I have read a few books on the Saudis, and also had a boyfriend who worked in Saudi Arabia (Aramco). He came home an alcoholic and died a few years later, but his words of how there was a group of people that were just bulldozed over and there was no concern for them, or that he saw a beheading of a woman with no witnesses to her rape, or some other things. (he got alcohol when he was on the Aramco ‘base’ where he lived - and I really believe that he was very bothered by what he saw in Saudi Arabia.) He would tell me quite often (yeah, I was a pest because he was too far from me for too long) that ‘believe me, you don’t want to be here!’.
Anyway, I read ‘The Princes of Darkness’, ‘Secrets of the Kingdom’, and a book called ‘Princess’. The last one I read about a decade ago and she told of the honor killings, and other things about saudi life. She said she could not reveal herself or else she would be killed. I lended it out and did not get it back so I can’t tell you the exact words.
The other two books were more political in nature and told more of their supporting wahabbism worldwide, their corruption and also it went into the lack of infrastructure in Saudi Arabia. Also that too many take ‘islamic studies’ in college and so very few get a degree in something useful - they even tried to bribe people into taking some studies that were more meaningful to everyday life - and they didn’t get too many who took up the offer. And this is why the biggest export out of saudi arabia are jihadists and oil. Not too much else.
Oh well, I went off on a tangent. but, I just wanted to say your explanation really meant something to me.
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