F
- Status
F
Friar_David_O.Carm
Guest
It all boils down to one point.
Personal preference.
Why must we try to make it anything more.
For either preference.
That is all it is. It is personal preference. It is what we find more appealing. What we find more of a connection with.
Why must we try to put up points that “prove” our preference is any more than that or any better than any one else’s preference.
I know, you will say that you are only saying why you love the EF but why must this be done? I have yet to see anyone post a “Reasons why to love the OF” or a thread pushing the OF over everything else. But then maybe I have just missed them.
Its a preference, plane and simple. Can’t we leave it at that?
I assume that if you have a preference for a certain form of the Mass or a certain rite then you have it because you feel it is more spiritually enriching than all the other choices. Isn’t that enough?
Why the competition?
Personal preference.
Why must we try to make it anything more.
For either preference.
That is all it is. It is personal preference. It is what we find more appealing. What we find more of a connection with.
Why must we try to put up points that “prove” our preference is any more than that or any better than any one else’s preference.
I know, you will say that you are only saying why you love the EF but why must this be done? I have yet to see anyone post a “Reasons why to love the OF” or a thread pushing the OF over everything else. But then maybe I have just missed them.
Its a preference, plane and simple. Can’t we leave it at that?
I assume that if you have a preference for a certain form of the Mass or a certain rite then you have it because you feel it is more spiritually enriching than all the other choices. Isn’t that enough?
Why the competition?
L
LilyM
Guest
I basically did not call you a liar. I believe you are being honest and never implied otherwise.You basically did call me a liar. In fact you had me questioning myself. At no point did I meant to make the OF inferior. I know what the title is, in fact in my previous post I was defending that title and asking people to stick to it. The EF does not allow for any option other than “facing east.” That’s one of the reasons why I like it. Now, in my OPINION I do feel as-orientem posture is better when it comes to liturgical orientation. This does not mean that I see the opposite as invalid, nor lacking in faith. The issue I have with it is that sometimes the priest seems to have to make a performance out of the mass, my experience. This is why when I said leading us I used the work “external” because yes versus populum also leads us through the liturgy, but externally it does not. Anyone leading a crowd facing that crowd will eventually trip
Now another reason I love the EF is the asperges me and the prayers at the foot of the altar.
To say, as I did, that your words are at best capable of more than one interpretation, and worst perhaps conveyed a different meaning to the one you intended, is totally different to implying that you are a liar.
I had you questioning yourself? About what? I thought your intention was pure as the driven snow, so what was there to question?
If I had you questioning how you express yourself - well, each of us sometimes needs to take a look at how we write or speak and whether what comes out of us properly conveys what we intend to express. So that’s actually a good thing.
R
Rich_C
Guest
I also love how every word, movement, gestures, bell, incensing, happening in the sanctuary is part of one big prayer - nothing is extraneous or without meaning. It’s a masterpiece.
T
thewanderer
Guest
ByzCath
I am fine with people pointing out that many of the reasons people give for liking the EF are not exclusive to the EF. It is actually something I would love to talk about at some point if this thread can actually get going. My problem is with people attacking individual posters who bring up such things. It is a legitimate reason to like the EF because certain of your preferences for the way the liturgy is celebrated are generally found in the EF. So there should not be a problem with people bringing up such things as reasons for why they like the EF. It is not a preference based on something intrinsic to the EF, but if it is generally found with the EF then it can be a legitimate reason to like the EF.
I think it would add an extra element to the conversation to have a calm chartiable discussion about which reasons are based solely on the EF and which are simply based on the fact that they are usually found at the EF and not usually found at the OF. But this discussion should not be started by calling out individual posters and implying that their preference is illegitimate simply because it is not something intrinsic to the EF.
I understand the desire to make sure people don’t start thinking that Latin, gregorian chant, ad orientem, etc are exclusive to the EF. Trust me, I have definately called out people in other threads for doing this. But I don’t see how it will further the purpose of this thread to call out individuals who list it as a reason for why they like the EF. Instead it is just going to scare away more people from actually responding because they will feel as though there is an antagonistic attitude against them.
I am fine with people pointing out that many of the reasons people give for liking the EF are not exclusive to the EF. It is actually something I would love to talk about at some point if this thread can actually get going. My problem is with people attacking individual posters who bring up such things. It is a legitimate reason to like the EF because certain of your preferences for the way the liturgy is celebrated are generally found in the EF. So there should not be a problem with people bringing up such things as reasons for why they like the EF. It is not a preference based on something intrinsic to the EF, but if it is generally found with the EF then it can be a legitimate reason to like the EF.
I think it would add an extra element to the conversation to have a calm chartiable discussion about which reasons are based solely on the EF and which are simply based on the fact that they are usually found at the EF and not usually found at the OF. But this discussion should not be started by calling out individual posters and implying that their preference is illegitimate simply because it is not something intrinsic to the EF.
I understand the desire to make sure people don’t start thinking that Latin, gregorian chant, ad orientem, etc are exclusive to the EF. Trust me, I have definately called out people in other threads for doing this. But I don’t see how it will further the purpose of this thread to call out individuals who list it as a reason for why they like the EF. Instead it is just going to scare away more people from actually responding because they will feel as though there is an antagonistic attitude against them.
T
thewanderer
Guest
In case you hadn’t noticed, I am the person who started this thread and I most specifically did not start it so that you could have an argument about one of the posters as to whether or not what he said could possibly be interpreted as anti-OF.
Please take this argument elsewhere if you wish to continue it.
T
thewanderer
Guest
T
The_Curt_Jester
Guest
Nothing derogatory there. If you consider that to be, then there’s really no point in even mentioning the EF. Of course, I’m sure some people would be happy about that.
T
TrueLight
Guest
T
thewanderer
Guest
I think the problem with this thread so far is that some people are viewing it as a competition. Let me very clear. This thread is not a competition between the two forms. I happen to personally prefer the OF, but I am vey interested in hearing more about the EF and why people like it. I am not trying to pit the two forms against each other by starting this thread. Rather I want it to be a place for discussing the EF so that people can learn more about this part of their Catholic heritage. If someone wants to start a thread about why they like the OF I think that would also be a wonderful idea, it just isn’t what I was trying to do at this particular point in time.
L
larsont7
Guest
Staying on topic:
- Reverence of both priest and laity
- Music (at the High Mass, or even the lack of music at the Low Mass)
- Reception of Holy Eucharist (always kneeling and on the tongue - some OF parishes do this, but they are hard to find)
- The prayers in the Mass (there are several more prayers in the EF)
- Ad orientem
- Sermons (in general - a lot more substance, from my personal experience)
- The beauty of the Latin language
- Silence (notably before and after Mass, but even during a Low Mass)
- Modesty of dress, head coverings for women
10+. No EMEs, altar girls, ad-libbing
R
Rich_C
Guest
Off topic, this reminds me a discussion about the 1965 missal where it was unanimously dubbed “the mass that no one loved.”
If the Holy Father ever sees fit to permit it, perhaps we’ll have a thread disproving that.
A
archangel04
Guest
Another reason, the EF uses the chalice veil. It only adds to the mystery of the mass! 
L
LilyM
Guest
Let me put it this way. Imagine that you are the younger child of two. And imagine your parents went onto an Internet forum and asked everyone to nominate reasons why they loved the older child - your sibling. And only your sibling. No thread for you. Could that fact in itself not really be seen as an invitation to pit you and your sibling against each other?
Imagine then that people on that thread said things like ‘I really love thewanderer’s sibling because he/she is fluent in English’, ‘I love thewanderer’s sib because he/she is the child of his/her parents’ and similar comments based on traits that you in fact share with that sibling. Would you not start saying ‘hang on, what the heck is so wrong with my English to make all these people praise only my brother or sister for theirs without mentioning mine?’
Worse still, what if they went on to say ‘well, truth is I just plain feel better when I hang out with the sib than with tw - in fact tw kinda dresses sloppy and doesn’t often say much worth listening to, and is just basically a real drag to be around’. Well, unless you had almost superhuman mental strength you’d be just about crazy with a mix of emotions - self loathing, anger, jealousy, all the good stuff
Such a result is easily foreseeable, and it’s why no sane parent would dream of starting such a thread.
T
thewanderer
Guest
Yes, I know exactly where you are coming from. Like I’ve said before, I actually prefer the OF. Heck, on another thread I went so far as to say that given the right conditions I would even travel over an hour to get to the OF on a Sunday. Despite the fact that I like the OF, and prefer it to the EF I really don’t find anything that’s been said so far as offensive. If you really want to turn to an analogy then please look at it this way. My good friend who knows and loves me well realizes that he doesn’t know my sibling nearly as well as he knows me. Because of this he decides to go and ask other people about my sibling and why they like her. How is that possibly offensive? The OF and EF are both part of our heritage as Latin Rite Catholics, why is it wrong or offensive to try to learn more about either of them? The answer is it isn’t, but people take offense anyway. Now I’m well aware that there are sensitive people who are not going to be able to read a thread like this charitably, but that is why I specifically asked in the beginning, and have since repeated that this thread is meant to be taken charitably, and if you can’t do so for some reason please do not derail it. There is nothing offensive in wanting to learn more about part of one’s heritage as a Catholic. If someone starts a thread about the Divine Mercy Novena is it offensive to those who say a chaplet to the Sacred Heart instead? No, it isn’t. Please take this thread in the spirit it was intended and if you find it too difficult to do so please at least do not derail it.
Let me put it this way. Imagine that you are the younger child of two. And imagine your parents went onto an Internet forum and asked everyone to nominate reasons why they loved the older child - your sibling. And only your sibling. No thread for you. Could that fact in itself not really be seen as an invitation to pit you and your sibling against each other?
Imagine then that people on that thread said things like ‘I really love thewanderer’s sibling because he/she is fluent in English’, ‘I love thewanderer’s sib because he/she is the child of his/her parents’ and similar comments based on traits that you in fact share with that sibling. Would you not start saying ‘hang on, what the heck is so wrong with my English to make all these people praise only my brother or sister for theirs without mentioning mine?’
Worse still, what if they went on to say ‘well, truth is I just plain feel better when I hang out with the sib than with tw - in fact tw kinda dresses sloppy and doesn’t often say much worth listening to, and is just basically a real drag to be around’. Well, unless you had almost superhuman mental strength you’d be just about crazy with a mix of emotions - self loathing, anger, jealousy, all the good stuff
Such a result is easily foreseeable, and it’s why no sane parent would dream of starting such a thread.
L
LilyM
Guest
If I want to get to know a person, I get to know them. I spend time in their company. What other people think of them doesn’t make a blind bit of difference. What matters is what I think of them.
Nor would I find asking the opinion of other people particularly helpful. Sometimes this is because they have agendas that are very different from mine, sometimes because their criteria for approval or disapproval are very different from mine. And often enough it just boils down to ‘I like them because I like them.’
Hardly particularly useful, any of this. If I go to a Mass, it doesn’t warm my heart or add anything to my appreciation to know that that form is popular (and that’s what this degenerated to, with the comment 'surely there must be more people here who like the EF than this - like someone getting together a supporters club to cheer on their favourite sports team).
Nor does it add anything to know that some like the Latin, or the Gregorian Chant, or COTT. Unless I happen to also like those things, and surely I know that already, and know that others do too, without feeling a need to ask them?
The whole exercise is just very foreign to me.
Nor would I find asking the opinion of other people particularly helpful. Sometimes this is because they have agendas that are very different from mine, sometimes because their criteria for approval or disapproval are very different from mine. And often enough it just boils down to ‘I like them because I like them.’
Hardly particularly useful, any of this. If I go to a Mass, it doesn’t warm my heart or add anything to my appreciation to know that that form is popular (and that’s what this degenerated to, with the comment 'surely there must be more people here who like the EF than this - like someone getting together a supporters club to cheer on their favourite sports team).
Nor does it add anything to know that some like the Latin, or the Gregorian Chant, or COTT. Unless I happen to also like those things, and surely I know that already, and know that others do too, without feeling a need to ask them?
The whole exercise is just very foreign to me.
T
The_Curt_Jester
Guest
That’s pretty clear. Thewanderer asked that you no longer derail this topic with pointless discussion of YOUR opinions — which happen to be that you don’t like hearing other people’s opinions — and you continue to do so. I’m going to have to start posting my reasons for liking the EF pretty soon to get this thread back on topic. And if I do that, it’ll be your fault.
T
thewanderer
Guest
I’m sorry that you saw my request for more respondants as offensive. Again, I’m really not sure why. I asked a question because I wanted people to answer. So of course I’m going to encourage people to answer if I haven’t received many replies.
Also, no, this is not about a popularity contest. I am asking other people for certain information. I see no reason why it should matter to you why I happen to be interested in said information. I also am a little confused as to why you think I should listen to your opinion about what should and should not be the subject matter of a thread when you have claimed that we should not seek out or listen to other peoples opinions.
If this thread were truly an inappropriate thread it would have already been closed as the mods are clearly already aware of its existence. The moderator has seen fit to allow this thread to remain open, clearly showing that he does not see the subject matter of this thread as problematic, so I would appreciate it if you would stop telling me that I should never have started such a ‘problematic’ and ‘offensive’ thread, or implying that I am insane for starting it.
To be honest, I am done discussing this with you. I do not appreciate being insulted and I really don’t care to put energy into an argument about whether or not I was being offensive in starting this thread. If its good enough for the mods, it should be good enough for you.
Peace
R
RogerDeCourcy
Guest
Classic. Any thread that states “The TLM is great” soon gets protested that “The NO is great too!!!”
Another reason I like the EF: I have little idea as to what the characters of the priests saying it are like, unless I meet them. They just do the job and go home. One less thing to be distracted by.
Another reason I like the EF: I have little idea as to what the characters of the priests saying it are like, unless I meet them. They just do the job and go home. One less thing to be distracted by.
C
ConservativeOne
Guest
Not having read all responses, I will address the above quoted here.
There is a reverence about the Tridentine Latin Mass (during and after) - that I don’t experience in the New Mass (not sure which term “EF” or “OF” applies). I agree that before and after Mass - in some parishes where New Mass is celebrated - the Church becomes a meeting hall of chatters, while others may be trying to pray. People seem to be unaware of kneeling when passing the Blessed Sacrament or of where they are. Wherever the Old Mass is said, those who have attended seem to remain behind to pray further (God bless them !). I realize this goes beyond the Mass Form itself - I don’t want to speak on the Theological side, having no education there. I’m afraid, after years of argument, of committing sin.
- Status