Do Not Turn Into a Fight - 10 Reasons to Love the EF

[triumphguy]

Like the argument that is banal music that’s banal, not whether it’s music from a guitar or organ or piano?

BTW how come there are so many guitar and flute players these days and no organ players?

I’ll tell you why.

It costs many thousands to buy a piano, and it’s not very portable. Piano isn’t played in band at school. Piano isn’t taught at school. So fewer kids are learning the piano than before.

Also, fewer churches have decent organs. Those electric versions are just horrible - unless they cost a 100 grand or more.

Fewer piano players, no decent organs.

A poor player on a cheap organ sounds worse than a decent guitar player on a decent guitar.

 

[Rich_C]

Another thing I love about the Extradordinary Form is that it was painstakingly preserved by each generation before us, going back almost 1,500 years. Wonderful prayers like the Credo and Gloria were added, as well as new propers for new saints’ feasts, but little or nothing was ever taken away, as Abp Fulton Sheen said. It is a product of the love of 40 generations of Catholics.

 

[RogerDeCourcy]

Like the argument that is banal music that’s banal, not whether it’s music from a guitar or organ or piano?

BTW how come there are so many guitar and flute players these days and no organ players?

I’ll tell you why.

It costs many thousands to buy a piano, and it’s not very portable. Piano isn’t played in band at school. Piano isn’t taught at school. So fewer kids are learning the piano than before.

Also, fewer churches have decent organs. Those electric versions are just horrible - unless they cost a 100 grand or more.

Fewer piano players, no decent organs.

A poor player on a cheap organ sounds worse than a decent guitar player on a decent guitar.

Most of the churches I’ve been in already have organs. One I went to had a decent, working organ in the organ loft but elected to use a piano at mass. A Western, established parish that can’t product an organ player, even by paying one for Sunday Mass, isn’t trying.

The connotations of the sound of the piano, and the guitar, and banjo, and kazoo in Western 21st Century culture are wrong and will be for the next 100 years, in all likelihood. They do not evoke Catholic religious feelings as well as chant by itself or chant + organ.

 

[triumphguy]

Most of the churches I’ve been in already have organs. One I went to had a decent, working organ in the organ loft but elected to use a piano at mass. A Western, established parish that can’t product an organ player, even by paying one for Sunday Mass, isn’t trying.

The connotations of the sound of the piano, and the guitar, and banjo, and kazoo in Western 21st Century culture are wrong and will be for the next 100 years, in all likelihood. They do not evoke Catholic religious feelings as well as chant by itself or chant + organ.

I’ve gotta say I’ve never heard a kazoo in real life, never mind a Church. Have you? Nor have I ever seen a banjo in Church. Where do you guys live? On the set of “Deliverance?”

You’ll be saying modern Churches use the mouth harp, and and tap out the rhythm of the Hallelujah on spoons next.

 

[Cowboy2012]

You get to assist in the same way that most saints assisted at Holy Mass, without much variation or chance for making the priest the center of attention.

CB

 

[triumphguy]

I love the EF because it affords a portion of the Catholic community a place to feel more close to God in the Celebration of the Eucharist.

 

[RogerDeCourcy]

I’ve gotta say I’ve never heard a kazoo in real life, never mind a Church. Have you? Nor have I ever seen a banjo in Church. Where do you guys live? On the set of “Deliverance?”

You’ll be saying modern Churches use the mouth harp, and and tap out the rhythm of the Hallelujah on spoons next.

I was referring obliquely to this remark here. I maintain that some instruments and styles are not suited to Mass. We have had polka masses, for example.

As for sacred music. I am not aware of any instrument that is strictly religious nor am I aware of any that is strictly secular. It all depends on culture.

 

[triumphguy]

I admit that chant and organ can be sublime, but not every OF mass is ridiculous!

I personally have never seen a clown at mass, or liturgical dance, or miming deacons, or banjos, or a Polka mass (which makes the mind boggle), or a fricken kazoo!!! I’m sure if I had I would be as jaded as you Yanks, but…

thank God I’m Canadian and go to a normal Church

I don’t know what they put in the water down there, but obviously you need to be drinking more Canadian beer just to wash your systems out!:harp:

And yes, you’re right some instruments are inherently ridiculous - the spoons, the kazoo, the mouth harp, the banjo, the car horn - clown instruments, or jug band instruments - but they would be ridiculous for much secular music too.

But did you watch my link to the guitarists playing Bach? How is their music less sublime?

And just to reiterate, in case you missed it the first time: thank God I’m Canadian:thumbsup:

 

[TS_Aquinas]

When I speak of “inherently neutral” I am speaking of morality, not causality or usage. A musical instrument is morally neutral.

Perhaps this is possible when you isolate the instrument from the craftsman and it’s practical use among those who use it, but this is folly. If the intent of the craftsman is to craft an instrument that is oriented to a morally decadent genre and the musicians of that genre prefer said instrument for morally decadent pieces, the instrument was designed for morally decadent ends and is not neutral.

If what you say is true, that it’s a matter of preference, then shouldn’t the preferred choice be what is more reverent and applicable for sacred worship?

 

[triumphguy]

Perhaps this is possible when you isolate the instrument from the craftsman and it’s practical use among those who use it, but this is folly. If the intent of the craftsman is to craft an instrument that is oriented to a morally decadent genre and the musicians of that genre prefer said instrument for morally decadent pieces, the instrument was designed for morally decadent ends and is not neutral.

If what you say is true, that it’s a matter of preference, then shouldn’t the preferred choice be what is more reverent and applicable for sacred worship?

Apart from clown and jug band instruments could you give a concrete example?

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

If what you say is true, that it’s a matter of preference, then shouldn’t the preferred choice be what is more reverent and applicable for sacred worship?

What is “more reverent and applicable for sacred worship” is subjective. What is reverent in your opinion does not necessarily make it more reverent for others, hence the use of “preferred choice”.

Again it is the way a particular instrument is used that makes it reverent and applicable for sacred worship.

IMHO no instrument is really reverent enough for such, only the human voice is but then that is the tradition in the Byzantine rite.

I am currently in a Spanish study program and the guitar is used exclusively as it is in most latino communities. This is so for a number of reasons but the biggest is that it is an instrument that the community can afford and know how to play. The music is reverent and applicable to sacred worship.

Not only that but it is cultural.

To try and push a western European cultural affectation onto the whole world is just utter nonsense.

 

[RogerDeCourcy]

Dear Brother,

Here is the crux of the matter: your kind of reasoning has led to polka masses. In theory, a guitar could sound passable at Mass. In practice, it’s usually awful, in the context of a sacred rite. There’s way too much wiggle-room.

It’s terrible. One may truly be getting the mass one deserves, if there’s no one in the parsih to put their foot down and there’s no robust guidance from farther up the command chain.

 

[triumphguy]

Dear Brother,

Here is the crux of the matter: your kind of reasoning has led to polka masses. In theory, a guitar could sound passable at Mass. In practice, it’s usually awful, in the context of a sacred rite. There’s way too much wiggle-room.

It’s terrible. One may truly be getting the mass one deserves, if there’s no one in the parsih to put their foot down and there’s no robust guidance from farther up the command chain.

No! Idiots thinking it is a “good idea” leads to polka masses, not the guitar!

You can play pop on the organ too!

youtube.com/watch?v=beaj4d_JW8c&feature=related

 

[triumphguy]

Interesting video on the workings of an organ
youtube.com/watch?v=XqP-2-yVRbs&feature=related

 

[Friar_David_O.Carm]

Dear Brother,

Here is the crux of the matter: your kind of reasoning has led to polka masses. In theory, a guitar could sound passable at Mass. In practice, it’s usually awful, in the context of a sacred rite. There’s way too much wiggle-room.

It’s terrible. One may truly be getting the mass one deserves, if there’s no one in the parsih to put their foot down and there’s no robust guidance from farther up the command chain.

All this is your opinion and it is one I do not agree with.

I have been to many Masses where a guitar was the only instrument used. All of them were beautiful and reverent so your “in practice” comment is off in my experience.

I have never seen a “polka” mass.

I also noted that you failed to respond to the culture issue.

 

[choliks]

It also depends on what kind of guitar. An electric guitar played at Mass really makes me cringe. On the other hand, a well played classical guitar (the nylon stringed…not the steel-stringed folk guitar) makes the Masses in our side of the world very reverent. It’s a good thing the electric guitar will always be the last choice.

Add to that the songs that were written. Most of the hymns here in the Philippines were written with the Mass settings in mind.

Since most of the parishes in our country are not well off, full scale pipe organs are very few and far between. Most notable of which is the Bamboo Organ. So we use what is accessible: a portable keyboard or a classical guitar.

But for us, the real hero in liturgical music is the choir. No solo acts please.

 

[Rich_C]

I also love the way the priest does a lot of things first, alone. Then when he’s done, the server/laity have our turn. It really hits home to me how special and indispensible the priest is.

 

[catharina]

I’ll start: Number 1 reason to love the EF:

If it suits your personality, spirituality or aesthetic predilections.

When someone gives this reason how can anyone deny their honesty?

So very true.

Anybody else on this site who likes th EF? I know there are more of you than just
this!

This is your chance to tell us all why you like it. You’re opportunity to help others see the beauty that you do in this form of the Mass. Feel free to step in and let us know!

I love both forms of the Holy Mass. Why not?
Only the Latin Mass existed until my young-adult years
so the EF remains quite familiar and comforting to me.

 

[RogerDeCourcy]

All this is your opinion and it is one I do not agree with.

I have been to many Masses where a guitar was the only instrument used. All of them were beautiful and reverent so your “in practice” comment is off in my experience.

I have never seen a “polka” mass.

I also noted that you failed to respond to the culture issue.

It’s not mere opinion. If no standard is set in music, then what you’ll hear is whatever the locals can muster. This is fine for local theatre. It’s not fine for a sacred rite, unless the rite is also local. The Catholic Mass is no mere local ceremony. The laity have a right to a a Mass said according to the mind of the Church, not what local liturgists favour.

There are polka Masses on Youtube.

When I hear the word culture, I reach for my shotgun. ‘Culture’ is what the locals make up. If they’re ex-colonials, it’s fairly recent. It’s a useful vector for creative liturgists to add banality to the rite. The odds that local liturgists are great artists is small.

The Mass is supposed to point to something eternal. The current trend to chase after popular taste works against this.

 

[RogerDeCourcy]

I do not expect people in a third world country to pay £100K for a pipe organ. But even then, modern synths do a fair approximation, if you don’t just buy something off the shelf.

What I do object to is a Western, 100 year-old parish leaving a pipe organ to gather dust while a guitarist plays modern hymns, badly. I also object to African or Phillipino stylings used to excuse English or US cheesy music. We can do better.