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Reuben_J
Guest
Sorry for the typo.i am posting from an Android phone. Hope the post makes sense.
- Status
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TheSufi
Guest
The same way a modern Egyptian can pick the Quran today and recite it in the modern Egyptian dialect. It would be easy for so native speaker of Egyptian dialect of Arabic to do. The letters aren’t pronounced exactly the same between dialects, although it may be subtle to your ears and you may not hear the difference with some letters, but a person trained in tajwid (proper pronounciation of the Quran) can explain to you the difference. We know where the tongue needs to be placed in the mouth in order to produce the correct sound of each letter according to the Quraysh dialect.
I used the Egyptian Arabic dialect because they have a letter is clearly pronounced differently. The Arabic word for camel, is jamal. It is pronounced Gamal in the Egyptian dialect of Arabic. And it is the same letter.
Yep that is some rhetoric.
Not moot, because the enemies of the Caliph Uthman were the Shia and the Quran they use today is the exact same Quran. The Shia killed Uthman. If they would have disagreed with content of the Quran, they would have made the changes back then.
Good but I am not interested in becoming a non-Muslim.
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jakasaki
Guest
MissyB786
Religion: Muslim
Thread Re: Explanation of breaks in the Muslim religion
Response from Muslim member:
Here: you claim the enemies of Uthman were Shia
Muslim member Missy posted in another thread that Shia did not exist at that time and they were created 100 years later…
- Which is it - ???
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TheSufi
Guest
She might talking about a particular Shia sect.MissyB786
Religion: Muslim
Thread Re: Explanation of breaks in the Muslim religion
Response from Muslim member:
Here: you claim the enemies of Uthman were Shia
Muslim member Missy posted in another thread that Shia did not exist at that time and they were created 100 years later…
- Which is it - ???
Shia literally refers to those who supported or believed that Ali was the rightful first successor after Prophet Muhammad. So in Essenes all Shia sects have their origin with this early group of Shia in one form or another. You have the zaydis (fivers), the ismailis (seveners), and the Ithan ashara (12ers) which were all founded after Uthman died. The number denoting which successor after Prophet, did each particular sect give emphasizes to.
And Shia existed during the time Uthman. Did the Ishmailis exist during the time of Uthman? No, neither did the Zaydis, etc.
Did the orthodox and Catholics exist during the time after Jesus’ death? Some would debate about this, catholic would say yes, I would say no. In reality we are both correct because we differ on our definition of catholic. Similar me and missy are probably both correct as we may have different definition of Shia.
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Reuben_J
Guest
But bro, you are not reciting the word of Allah as how Gabriel recited it to Mohammad and as how Mohammad recited it. Don’t you think you are not distorting Allah’s word even by pronouncing them differently?
Exactly. That is what I am trying to say. The background in the way the Quran was compiled and eventually written into a single book was of fatal internal politic which was filled with murders and war. You would think the remaining sahabas and the scribes would dare to object to the edict of the burning of the other copies of the Quran even if they did not agree with some of it?
What about the lost verses of the Quran? What about the so-called satanic verse?
Caliph Uthman ordered the Qur’an collected into one volume: Hadith 709 & 507
The Qur’an had not been collected into one volume prior the third Caliph, some 25 years after Muhammad’s death.
- Narrated Anas: Uthman called Zaid bin Thabit, Abdullah bin Az-Zubair, Said bin Al-As and Abdur-Rahman bin Al-Harith bin Hisham, and then they wrote the manuscripts of the Holy Quran in the form of book in several copies. Uthman said to the three Quraishi persons." If you differ with Zaid bin Thabit on any point of the Quran, then write it in the language of Quraish, as the Quran was revealed in their language." So they acted accordingly. (Zaid bin Thabit was an Ansari and not from Quraish). Vol. 4 - Prophet and His Companions - Hadith 709
"Reuben J:
But do you have proof that the Qur’an of today is NOT different than what Muhammad revealed!
It is standard norm that what is recorded from a person must be verified by him before it is considered a true copy or rendering of the recital. The Quran failed this test as Mohammad was not here to verify it and to give it a stamp of approval that everything written was true.
Contrary to Muslim claims, some verses had not been memorized by everyone:
Hadith 511
511. Narrated Zaid bin Thabit: Abu Bakr sent for me and said “you used to write the Divine Revelations for Allah’s Apostle (SAW): So you should search for (the Quran and collect) it.” I started searching for the Quran till I found the last two Verses of Surat At-Tauba with Abi Khazaima Al-Ansari and I could not find these Verses with anybody other than him. (They were): 'Verily there has come unto you an Apostle (Muhammad (SAW)) from amongst yourselves. It grieves him that you should receive any injury or difficulty. . . (9:128-129) Vol. 6 -Virtues of the Quran - Hadith 511
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Reuben_J
Guest
Zaid bin Thabit’s Third Account of the Collection of the Qur’an:
Hadith 301.
Narrated Zaid bin Thabit: Abu Bakr sent for me owing to the large number of casualties in the battle of Al-Yamama, while Umar was sitting with him. Abu Bakr said (to me), “Umar has come to me and said, ‘A great number of Qaris of the Holy Quran were killed on the day of the battle of Al-Yamama, and I am afraid that the casualties among the Qaris of the Quran may increase on the battle-fields whereby a large part of the Quran may be lost. Therefore I consider it advisable that you (Abu Bakr) should have the Quran collected.’ I said, ‘How dare I do something which Allah’s Apostle (SAW) did not do?’ Umar said, ‘By Allah, it is something beneficial.’ Umar kept on pressing me for that till Allah opened my chest for that for which He had opened the chest of Umar and I had in that matter, the same opinion as Umar had.” Abu Bakr then said to me (Zaid), “You are a wise young man and we do not have any suspicion about you, and you used to write the Divine Inspiration for Allah’s Apostle (SAW). So you should search for (the fragmentary script of) the Quran and collect it (in one Book).” Zaid further said: By Allah, if Abu Bakr had ordered me to shift a mountain among the mountains from one place to another it would not have been heavier for me than this ordering me to collect the Quran. Then I said (to Umar and Abu Bakr), “How can you do something which Allah’s Apostle (SAW) did not do?” Abu Bakr said, “By Allah, it is something beneficial.” Zaid added: So he (Abu Bakr) kept on pressing me for that until Allah opened my chest for that for which He had opened the chests of Abu Bakr and Umar, and I had in that matter, the same opinion as theirs. So I started compiling the Quran by collecting it from the leafless stalk of the date-palm tree and from the pieces of leather and hides and from the stones, and from the chests of men (who had memorized the Quran). I found the last Verses of Surat-at-Tauba: ‘Verily there has come unto you an Apostle (Muhammad (SAW)) from amongst yourselves.’ (9:128-129), from Khuzaima or Abi Khuzaima and I added to it the rest of the Sura. The manuscript of the Quran remained with Abu Bakr till Allah took him unto Him. Then it remained with Umar till Allah took him unto Him, and then with Hafsa bint Umar. Vol. 9 - Judgements
The following things are proven from Hadith 301:
Hadith 301.
Narrated Zaid bin Thabit: Abu Bakr sent for me owing to the large number of casualties in the battle of Al-Yamama, while Umar was sitting with him. Abu Bakr said (to me), “Umar has come to me and said, ‘A great number of Qaris of the Holy Quran were killed on the day of the battle of Al-Yamama, and I am afraid that the casualties among the Qaris of the Quran may increase on the battle-fields whereby a large part of the Quran may be lost. Therefore I consider it advisable that you (Abu Bakr) should have the Quran collected.’ I said, ‘How dare I do something which Allah’s Apostle (SAW) did not do?’ Umar said, ‘By Allah, it is something beneficial.’ Umar kept on pressing me for that till Allah opened my chest for that for which He had opened the chest of Umar and I had in that matter, the same opinion as Umar had.” Abu Bakr then said to me (Zaid), “You are a wise young man and we do not have any suspicion about you, and you used to write the Divine Inspiration for Allah’s Apostle (SAW). So you should search for (the fragmentary script of) the Quran and collect it (in one Book).” Zaid further said: By Allah, if Abu Bakr had ordered me to shift a mountain among the mountains from one place to another it would not have been heavier for me than this ordering me to collect the Quran. Then I said (to Umar and Abu Bakr), “How can you do something which Allah’s Apostle (SAW) did not do?” Abu Bakr said, “By Allah, it is something beneficial.” Zaid added: So he (Abu Bakr) kept on pressing me for that until Allah opened my chest for that for which He had opened the chests of Abu Bakr and Umar, and I had in that matter, the same opinion as theirs. So I started compiling the Quran by collecting it from the leafless stalk of the date-palm tree and from the pieces of leather and hides and from the stones, and from the chests of men (who had memorized the Quran). I found the last Verses of Surat-at-Tauba: ‘Verily there has come unto you an Apostle (Muhammad (SAW)) from amongst yourselves.’ (9:128-129), from Khuzaima or Abi Khuzaima and I added to it the rest of the Sura. The manuscript of the Quran remained with Abu Bakr till Allah took him unto Him. Then it remained with Umar till Allah took him unto Him, and then with Hafsa bint Umar. Vol. 9 - Judgements
The following things are proven from Hadith 301:
- Caliph Uthman ordered the Qur’an compiled into one volume.
- The Qur’an was not collected during Muhammad’s lifetime.
- Zaid had to be persuaded to do that which the Prophet had not done.
- There was only one man who remembered some of the verses of the Qur’an.
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TheSufi
Guest
What?
Uthman was not the first to compile into one book.
Wrong
So what.
Proof according to whom?
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Reuben_J
Guest
It is ok brother if you do not want to reply to the post. I know it is a challenge but you don’t have to if you do not want to. I seldom had gone very far with Muslims in their explanation of their faith. It ends eventually with ‘because Allah says so’, or ‘Mohammad says so’ or ‘it is in the Quran’.
I have the questions for you and other Muslims because of the high claim that you have for the Quran. I thought maybe it should be able to pass through the scrutiny. But if you do not want to, we can move on. It is alright.
Things to note here, had all the revelations were found and recorded, who knows, we could have a different message of the Quran today. We wouldn’t know. Some verses obviously gone with the dead sahabas who perished in the battle of Al-Yamama as per the hadith that not all the sahabas knew of the whole revelation that there were verses that were only known to one sahaba only. Without confrimation, that verse certainly did not have much value.
In any case, Mohammad did not have the chance to verify the final written Quran so its veracity remained incomplete. But you have to make do with what you have. It is not a problem except only for the lofty claim of the Quran being unaltered word of Allah recorded verbatim. But remember when you recite it today, you may know that most of it was the work of a certain person by the name of Zaid who said, "How can you do something which Allah’s Apostle (SAW) did not do?"
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fnr
Guest
There was a heresy in the early church called docetism, which posited that Jesus didn’t actually have a bodily incarnation, so his crucifixion wasn’t actually bodily. 1 John actually warns against this as a false teaching.
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TheSufi
Guest
I am not challenged by your questions at all. Many of your arguments don’t make sense to me. It is as if you are arguing for the sake of arguing, you are trying to find something to argue about, but you haven’t really pondered on what has been said about these topic, and constructed an argument that make sense.
For example,
No the hadith indicates that Abu Bakr ordered the Quran to be compiled into one volume.
**Wrong. ** There is nothing in this quote that indicates that the Quran wasn’t collected during the lifetime of the Prophet.
In Muslim and al Bukhari Anas Ibn Malik said, “The Quran was gathered together in the time of the Prophet by four, all of whom were from the Ansar: Ubayy, Muadh ibn Jabal, Zayd ibn Thabit, and Abu Zayd.”
What persuade him was inspiration from God. Zaid added:** So he (Abu Bakr) kept on pressing me for that until Allah (God) opened my chest for that for which He had opened the chests of Abu Bakr and Umar, and I had in that matter, the same opinion as theirs.**
He wasn’t persuaded by pressure, but by inspiration from God Himself, as Abu Bakr and Umar were.
- This hadith actually indicates that there were two people who had memorized this verse from Prophet Muhmmad, Zaid, the one speaking and **Khuzayma. ** There are actually more than two who memorized it from Prophet Muhammad, but only two who were alive at that time.
- Zaid was looking for people who memorized it directly from Prophet. There were other companions who had died, who memorized that verse directly from the Prophet, such as, Abu Dard, Mu’adh Ibn Jabal, Abu Zayd, and others. So you had other companions who had memorized this verse from these companions, but not directly from the Prophet. So Zaid was not interested in their testimony, because of his high criteria.
This ends our discussion on this topic. I’ll give you the last word. Peace.
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Reuben_J
Guest
I mean challenged, in the sense that you have to answer the question posed to you. I am challenged all the time about my faith, and my duty is to answer those challenges. Sometimes it is indeed a challenge for me because it is not easy to answer everything effectively, either due to lack of knowledge or articulating it in such a way it is understood by the enquirer.
Many arguments do not seem to make sense to us but we have to address them anyway. The minimum we can do is to ask for clarification. By saying that the inquirer is wrong does not make him so. I learn this wisdom from you when you said that “by calling you stupid will not make me right” (paraphrase).
Sometimes in an inter-religious discussion you may be faced with witty comments and those you think that are downright do not make sense, actually do. It is too bad if you cannot stomach them. These will not go away unless you are prepared to address them, no matter how irritating they may seem to you.
You need to rebut them if you disagree. Surely an answer just because ’because Allah says so’, or ‘Mohammad says so’ or 'it is in the Quran’ is not sufficient when you deal with a person who do not share your belief. That is why I said it is up to you. Either you to want to answer them or not. It is up to you. You can call me by all names but it does not make the question simply disappear. It merely becomes a question unanswered.
"Reuben J:
Yes, obviously that was so. It was my mistake to mix these two personalities. That’s the reason for me to show the hadith for all to see. The point here is to show that this was not Mohammad’s instruction.
In any case it was Uthman who ordered the compiling of the Quran that you have today.
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Reuben_J
Guest
"Reuben J:
And yet only Zayd ibn Thabit was to be followed when the other three differed.
Narrated Anas: Uthman called Zaid bin Thabit, Abdullah bin Az-Zubair, Said bin Al-As and Abdur-Rahman bin Al-Harith bin Hisham, and then they wrote the manuscripts of the Holy Quran in the form of book in several copies. Uthman said to the three Quraishi persons." **If you differ with Zaid bin Thabit on any point of the Quran, then write it in the language of Quraish, as the Quran was revealed in their language." So they acted accordingly. **(Zaid bin Thabit was an Ansari and not from Quraish). Vol. 4 - Prophet and His Companions - Hadith 709
"Reuben J:
"Reuben J:
The weakness or why this is not entirely dependable is especially if the two persons (one being Zaid) who remembered the verse specifically could have died prematurely perhaps as in the case of the battle of Al-Yamama where many of the sahabas were killed. Their knowledge certainly died with them. And you cannot know that they did not.
I am not interested to win the argument. If it makes you happy to have the last word, then by all means do so. But I want to quote you again, “just because you say so does not make you right” (paraphrase), a pearl of wisdom I learn from you.
Peace to you too.
I disagree in that the Quran was obviously compiled after the death of Mohammad. Please note that I specifically mention the Quran, not the bits and pieces of the revelations. You are indeed wrong here and I am right. There was no written Quran as what you know it is today at the time of Mohammad. The revelations were only recited orally and some were written in bits and pieces on skins or leaves, whatever materials available for the purpose. It was here that some were lost, burned or ‘eaten by goat’. These you cannot deny as they were all mentioned in the hadith.
Please show the hadith.
And yet only Zayd ibn Thabit was to be followed when the other three differed.
Narrated Anas: Uthman called Zaid bin Thabit, Abdullah bin Az-Zubair, Said bin Al-As and Abdur-Rahman bin Al-Harith bin Hisham, and then they wrote the manuscripts of the Holy Quran in the form of book in several copies. Uthman said to the three Quraishi persons." **If you differ with Zaid bin Thabit on any point of the Quran, then write it in the language of Quraish, as the Quran was revealed in their language." So they acted accordingly. **(Zaid bin Thabit was an Ansari and not from Quraish). Vol. 4 - Prophet and His Companions - Hadith 709
"Reuben J:
The point that I wanted to mention was that which the Prophet had not done. I agree that Zaid could do that. But with Mohammad who should have the last word, if Muslims should believe that Mohammad should have the last word, then what Zaid did was not what Mohammad commanded.
"Reuben J:
Yes, but this shows the weakness of oral tradition. If there were only two who could have known this verse, then there is no truth to say that the entire content of the unwritten Quran was memorized by everybody who could memorize it.
The weakness or why this is not entirely dependable is especially if the two persons (one being Zaid) who remembered the verse specifically could have died prematurely perhaps as in the case of the battle of Al-Yamama where many of the sahabas were killed. Their knowledge certainly died with them. And you cannot know that they did not.
I am not saying otherwise too. I specifically mentioned about the sahabas.
I am glad you are not challenged and I am thankful for your gracefulness to address my post. Whether they are baseless or not, it is up to the people or me to judge, remembering that this is a public forum and there are many who are reading this.
I am not interested to win the argument. If it makes you happy to have the last word, then by all means do so. But I want to quote you again, “just because you say so does not make you right” (paraphrase), a pearl of wisdom I learn from you.
Peace to you too.
M
MartinJordan
Guest
Salvation is not be fooled around with TheSufi :tsktsk:
Theophan was trying to follow the Faith in the crucified Christ (who died for us in atonement for our sins) and Theophan followed the Faith to the best of his ability and at the same time using his intellect and reason of who God is and coupled with an exemplary prayer life.
Plus scripture says 1 Peter 2:21-25
New International Version (NIV)-
21 To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps.22 “He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth.”[a] 23 When they hurled their insults at him, he did not retaliate; when he suffered, he made no threats. Instead, he entrusted himself to him who judges justly. 24 “He himself bore our sins” in his body on the cross, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; “by his wounds you have been healed.” 25 For “you were like sheep going astray,”** but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.
And this: 1 Peter 4 : 12-
12 Dear friends, do not be surprised at the fiery ordeal that has come on you to test you, as though something strange were happening to you. 13 But rejoice inasmuch as you participate in the sufferings of Christ, so that you may be overjoyed when his glory is revealed. 14 If you are insulted because of the name of Christ, you are blessed, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you. 15 If you suffer, it should not be as a murderer or thief or any other kind of criminal, or even as a meddler. 16 However, if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but praise God that you bear that name. 17 For it is time for judgment to begin with God’s household; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God? 18 And,
“If it is hard for the righteous to be saved,
what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?”[a]
19 So then, those who suffer according to God’s will should commit themselves to their faithful Creator and continue to do good.
Amen!
MJ**
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Reuben_J
Guest
1 Peter 2:21-25
New International Version (NIV)-
21 To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps.22 “He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth.”[a] 23 When they hurled their insults at him, he did not retaliate; when he suffered, he made no threats. Instead, he entrusted himself to him who judges justly. 24 “He himself bore our sins” in his body on the cross, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; “by his wounds you have been healed.” 25 For “you were like sheep going astray,”** but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.
Amen!
MJ**
Another big Amen.
T
TheSufi
Guest
Salvation is not be fooled around with TheSufi :tsktsk:
Theophan was trying to follow the Faith in the crucified Christ (who died for us in atonement for our sins) and Theophan followed the Faith to the best of his ability and at the same time using his intellect and reason of who God is and coupled with an exemplary prayer life.
Plus scripture says 1 Peter 2:21-25
New International Version (NIV)-
21 To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps.22 “He committed no sin, and no deceit was found in his mouth.”[a] 23 When they hurled their insults at him, he did not retaliate; when he suffered, he made no threats. Instead, he entrusted himself to him who judges justly. 24 “He himself bore our sins” in his body on the cross, so that we might die to sins and live for righteousness; “by his wounds you have been healed.” 25 For “you were like sheep going astray,”** but now you have returned to the Shepherd and Overseer of your souls.
And this: 1 Peter 4 : 12-
12 Dear friends, do not be surprised at the fiery ordeal that has come on you to test you, as though something strange were happening to you. 13 But rejoice inasmuch as you participate in the sufferings of Christ**, so that you may be overjoyed when his glory is revealed. 14 If you are insulted because of the name of Christ, you are blessed, for the Spirit of glory and of God rests on you. 15 If you suffer, it should not be as a murderer or thief or any other kind of criminal, or even as a meddler. 16 However, if you suffer as a Christian, do not be ashamed, but praise God that you bear that name. 17 For it is time for judgment to begin with God’s household; and if it begins with us, what will the outcome be for those who do not obey the gospel of God? 18 And,
“If it is hard for the righteous to be saved,
what will become of the ungodly and the sinner?”[a]
19 So then, those who suffer according to God’s will should commit themselves to their faithful Creator and continue to do good.
Amen!
MJ
Interesting, but Jesus still isn’t God.
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dronald
Guest
But He certainly died on that cross. (and resurrected, and ascended)
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GaryTaylor
Guest
Apparently He hasn’t revealed Himself to you, which is why you say this.
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TheSufi
Guest
He hasn’t revealed himself to over 5 billion plus living people in the world. So I’m not worried.Apparently He hasn’t revealed Himself to you, which is why you say this.
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MartinJordan
Guest
Is this what Salvation is to you The Sufi. Just…interesting? You are certainly entitled to your OWN opinion… but this is SERIOUS.
MJ
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dronald
Guest
The gate certainly is wide. (matthew 7:13)He hasn’t revealed himself to over 5 billion plus living people in the world. So I’m not worried.
Also, Matthew 24
14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
We’re getting closer, but you’re right. Not quite there yet.
- Status