Why is the thread going in this direction?The wording above the cross, differs between Gospels. They cannot be all correct.
So you’re arguing that God took Jesus up before he died, then chose someone guilty of a crime that would have resulted in crucifixion if he had been caught and tried by the Romans and swapped him and had the Romans nail him to the cross instead (unknown to the Romans who thought they were crucifying Jesus)? So you’re saying that God chose a sinner, judged him, condemned him to an Earthly death by crucifixion, and then tricked the Romans into crucifying him by swapping him with Jesus?Not really, because a person can be crucified for various crimes.
In other words, it isn’t necessary that the man replaced be accused of the same crime, but his punishment be equal to the crime he committed.
Yes they can. I suppose that would be a thought that you would call “insufficient.” And I get that. I think it silly, but I get it.The wording above the cross, differs between Gospels. They cannot be all correct.
Really? How do can you determine what is truthful and what is not? What is the standard used to sift what is truth and what is not?The Gospel is comprised of some truth and some falsehood. I only try to quote what is truthful.
s.
Perhaps there are various scenarios that one could make up. The only scenarios I am willing to accept is where God appears just, and I am assume the only scenarios that you are willing to accept is where God appears unjust.So you’re arguing that God took Jesus up before he died, then chose someone guilty of a crime that would have resulted in crucifixion if he had been caught and tried by the Romans and swapped him and had the Romans nail him to the cross instead (unknown to the Romans who thought they were crucifying Jesus)? So you’re saying that God chose a sinner, judged him, condemned him to an Earthly death by crucifixion, and then tricked the Romans into crucifying him by swapping him with Jesus?
You are wrong in that.Perhaps there are various scenarios that one could make up. The only scenarios I am willing to accept is where God appears just, and I am assume the only scenarios that you are willing to accept is where God appears unjust.
I’ve looked for twenty years and have yet to find one.My biggest gripe is that I feel like I must constantly defend the Bible in a topic that’s about the Islamic view of the crucifixion.
The only answers I’ve gotten from thesufi is, “don’t question God” and “God did a great job fooling everyone.”
These are horrible answers and I would really like to hear from a Muslim who doesn’t accept the Qur’an on blind faith, but has sound reasoning for his beliefs.
There are many interpretations of what actually happened at the crucifixion by Muslims but they are all speculations since the Quran is silent on it. Some said it was Judas, some said at the supposed moment of death of Jesus, he was picked up by Allah, and so on. Of course all of these do not make sense because of the fact that it left an impression behind that Jesus was crucified and Christian belief was established because of this.
Quran 4:157 emphasis is on Jesus being rescued by Allah (raised him up unto Himself) and those who differ from this are in doubt, meaning they have been deceived.
There is no evidence that ‘they’ boasted in killing Jesus too as said by the verse.
If a revered prophet should not ‘suffer such an excruciating fate’, then why did not Allah rescue Jesus from being arrested or even at the agony in Gethsemane where Jesus already suffered excruciating pain (mentally and physically)?
The suffering and humiliation of Jesus can be divided into four parts:
1. The agony at Gethsemane.
Jesus was in great distress, ‘My soul is sorrowful to the point of death’; ‘If possible, let this cup pass me by’.
2. Jesus was scourged
Pilate ordered Jesus to be first scourged and then handed over to be crucified.
3. Jesus carried the cross
Carrying the wooden cross, Jesus already wounded and in pain from the torture, fell several times, that he could not carry it any longer.
4. Jesus was crucified
*When they reached the place called the Skull (Golgotha), they crucified him there and the two criminals also, one on the right, the other on the left.
‘Father into your hands I commit my spirit’. With these words he breathed his last.
Joseph of Arimethaia went to Pilate and asked for the body of Jesus. He took it down, wrapped it in a shroud and put him in a tomb. *
It is strange that Allah should rescue Jesus only at the point of death on the cross (crucifixion) but not at the earlier stages where the suffering was even greater. Death is perhaps the least of all pain compared to the physical and mental pain that Jesus endured.
So the general interpretation by Muslims as mentioned is moot but more merely to justify Quran 4:157.
I am able defend my beliefs and have. You just don’t like the answers.Why is the thread going in this direction?
Yes they are all right because it was written in four different languages. Different audience, different language, different wording.
But why is this even what we’re discussing?
- You ignore context
- You can’t defend your own beliefs
- You change the topic
I want a verse where Jesus says “I’m God.”My biggest gripe is that I feel like I must constantly defend the Bible in a topic that’s about the Islamic view of the crucifixion.
The only answers I’ve gotten from thesufi is, “don’t question God” and “God did a great job fooling everyone.”
These are horrible answers and I would really like to hear from a Muslim who doesn’t accept the Qur’an on blind faith, but has sound reasoning for his beliefs.
Craig S. Keener in his commentary of the Gospel of John, goes over the difference of opinion regarding the author.Yes they can. I suppose that would be a thought that you would call “insufficient.” And I get that. I think it silly, but I get it.
What about the other questions? Thanks
Quran contains what a Muslim believes to be the truth and the bible contains what a Christian believes to be the truth, irrespective of what sciencetist, historians, and other have to say about it.The Quran is hardly a historical source for anything, so the claims that Muslims make can’t be substantiated, other than resorting to “because the Quran says so.”
Muslims have been given that evidence but they refuse to accept it. Further, you accept evidence or the words only on your terms. Anything different from “I am God” and you reject it.I want a verse where Jesus says “I’m God.”
How did he raise 3 people from the dead? Yes Jesus is God as is the Holy Spirit. Islam is false in not teaching this.Muslims have been given that evidence but they refuse to accept it. Further, you accept evidence or the words only on your terms. Anything different from “I am God” and you reject it.
Why was Jesus arrested and led to the crucifixion? Why did He predict these events multiple times? Why did He compare Himself with God the Father? How could He forgive sins or persorm miracles on His own without asking God the Father?
It is unlikely your mind will be changed, but we are having these discusssions for the benefit of undecided souls.
Why do you want such a verse? So that you can fall on your knees and worship Him? Fact is, if such a verse existed you would reject it as “corrupt” so it’s useless.I want a verse where Jesus says “I’m God.”
You want historical evidence that Jesus did not die on the cross.
In both cases neither one of us can provide a sufficient answer.
So I take it, both of us will continue see problems with each others religion.