Do only Muslims reject the historical crucifixion?

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😃

Blind faith?🤷

Seriously, my Muslim friend of 30 years, yes that’s right 30 years, says that when he was asked by an Atheist why he believes in God, my friend said ā€œBlind faithā€ :ouch:

MJ
I believe in God because I have experienced God. No one has to tell me God exist, I know He exist.
 
I assumed this thread disappeared. I often take a look at ā€œmost recent postsā€ and never see the ones I create and then all of a sudden it’s 4 pages long in debate.

Anyways, the discussion is about whether or not Muslims deny the historical crucifixion. I’m not asking if Muslims deny the crucifixion, we already know the answer to that. What I’m saying is that it’s agreed among almost all scholars (Christian or not) that if Jesus existed then He most certainly was crucified.

I wonder why Muslims reject what has been excepted as fact by almost all scholars.
Christians are suppose to believe that Jesus died on the cross as the Quran clearly states, they were made to believe that. So it is no surprise that historians may believe that he died. So we reject it because the Quran says, he didn’t died on the cross.

We also believe man was created, even if scientist believe we evolved from animals. Simply because the Quran says so.
 
At the end of the day, I don’t view Catholic/Orthodox Christianity as the intended message of Jesus. And you don’t see Prophet Muhammad as a prophet of God. This is the source of our difference.

And to debate about these particulars is a waste of time.
Myself, I don’t think it is a waste of time to exchange different ideas, different opinions. It is interesting. And educational. That’s why people are here.

I think that Islam’s explanation for the Crucifixion, and its inability to provide the nebulous injeel it talks about are the weakest parts of the religion.
 
I believe in God because I have experienced God. No one has to tell me God exist, I know He exist.
Peace to you and especially at this time which I think may be a holy time for those who follow your beliefs.

Can I ask you how you know that the God you experienced exists?

Hint. Don’t tell me you read it in the Koran, or were brought up in this religion from birth onwards.

I will pick up on that.

Where did you actually make a choice?
 
Christians are suppose to believe that Jesus died on the cross as the Quran clearly states, they were made to believe that. So it is no surprise that historians may believe that he died. So we reject it because the Quran says, he didn’t died on the cross.

We also believe man was created, even if scientist believe we evolved from animals. Simply because the Quran says so.
The problem is that the very apostles whom Christ chose, whom the quran says would be victorius to the day of ressurection believed Christ died as well. This is historically undeniable, it is historically undeniable that those immediately following the apostles believed the same thing.
 
Myself, I don’t think it is a waste of time to exchange different ideas, different opinions. It is interesting. And educational. That’s why people are here.

I think that Islam’s explanation for the Crucifixion, and its inability to provide the nebulous injeel it talks about are the weakest parts of the religion.
I think the weakest point if Christianity is Jesus being God. I have read the Gospels and in all honesty I don’t see how the Early church embraced the idea that Jesus is God based on the gospels only. And I really tried to open minded about it for a whole year while studying Orthodox Christianity in the catchumen program as well as buying several books on its theology and as well as Protestant refutations of Jehovah witness on Jesus being God.

I understand how you embrace Jesus as God from a believers perspective and historically I can see what lead to that decision. But reading Jesus words alone, I don’t see it, I can see why the Arians broke away from the Church.
 
Peace to you and especially at this time which I think may be a holy time for those who follow your beliefs.

Can I ask you how you know that the God you experienced exists?

Hint. Don’t tell me you read it in the Koran, or were brought up in this religion from birth onwards.

I will pick up on that.

Where did you actually make a choice?
Man is composed of a mind, body and a spirit. It is with the spirit that one can truly experience God directly, it is the only faculty of man that one can embrace the divine directly.

To me this is the ultimate goal of Islam. In Islam we call it Ihsan (Sufism, Tasawwuf), to worship God as though you see Him (because it is not with the physical eyes), because you see Him (because it is seeing with the spirit).

You know, when no one can tell you otherwise. It is not the same thing as what people call faith, but it is not other than that either, because that is where it starts, in the heart. Jesus spoke of this when he said, Blessed are those who are pure in heart for they shall see God. i know many commentators try to make it seem as if this is referring to death. perhaps this is why the sufi masters says, die before you die. Through the proper training under a sound Sufi master, God willing, anyone can experience the divine directly.

I’m a convert.

And it is God alone who gives Success.
 
I think the weakest point if Christianity is Jesus being God.
Totally understandable. I think it is the weakest, too. It is a fundamental part of orthodox christianity, but I personally see it placing obstacles to understanding the faith.
I have read the Gospels and in all honesty I don’t see how the Early church embraced the idea that Jesus is God based on the gospels only. And I really tried to open minded about it for a whole year while studying Orthodox Christianity in the catchumen program as well as buying several books on its theology and as well as Protestant refutations of Jehovah witness on Jesus being God.
Good for you. Giving something an honest shot is all a person can do.

Personally, I would recommend all new Christians put the Trinity aside temporarily, and focus on the saving grace of Jesus Christ. He made it extremely clear that He is the only way to God.
I understand how you embrace Jesus as God from a believers perspective and historically I can see what lead to that decision. But reading Jesus words alone, I don’t see it, I can see why the Arians broke away from the Church.
Well, that’s the big (but almost ignored) difference between Christianity and Islam – the Christian faith is not entirely based on what is in its scripture. The Catholic (and I’m guessing Orthodox) faith states it implicitly: doctrine is based on the sacred Bible AND sacred tradition.
 
Totally understandable. I think it is the weakest, too. It is a fundamental part of orthodox christianity, but I personally see it placing obstacles to understanding the faith.
Well, that’s the big (but almost ignored) difference between Christianity and Islam – the Christian faith is not entirely based on what is in its scripture. The Catholic (and I’m guessing Orthodox) faith states it implicitly: doctrine is based on the sacred Bible AND sacred tradition.
Tradition is a very important aspect of Islam as well. Believe it or not, it is one of the reason that attracted me to Orthodox Christianity, and one of the reasons I would prefer it over Jehovah Witness even though they don’t believe Jesus is God. And tradition is a very important aspect of Orthodox Christianity as well.

Tradition is important, but tradition can be wrong. In Sunni Islam, we have different schools of thought in law and doctrine. These schools of thoughts try to balance scripture and tradition to arrive at the correct rulings and doctrine.

While there is a validity to the Orthodox/Catholic Churches at the same time, I believed they erred. I see it in Islam as well. Both have a strong tie to tradition, following councils (which to me is the same thing as ijma :consensus: in Islam), and its continuous chain back to the founder, be he Prophet Muhammad or Jesus. They can err in the analyzes of tradition and scripture, even in light of the Holy Spirit, or what we might term Ilham or Kashf (inspiration from God).

I said all that to say, I am not ignorant of tradition and its place or importance or value in our religions, be it Islam or Christianity. I mean, look at Priest not being allowed to marry in the Catholic church, this wasn’t a practice of the early Church. I mentioned that to indicate that things change with time, and thus tradition can change, and thus have the susceptibility of error.

In Islam, we speak of hadith, however in early Islam, tradition had more weight then hadiths. Because of the possibility of tradition changing, later scholars preferred to rely mainly on hadith, because hadiths were more verifiable. And easier to find additions. For example, a person in 632 AD said the Prophet said this. However in 646, the same person said something slightly different, we know something was added in between. The early schools of thoughts were based on the traditions of a particular region, the tradition of Syria, the tradition of Iraq, the tradition of Yemen, the tradition of Medinah, the tradition of Mecca etc etc. It was more difficult to verify tradition, because of the nature in how it is transmitted.

The tradition of Medinah is the only school that survived the test of time, and exist as the Maliki school of thought in this day and time. Although those other schools of thoughts died out, their rulings based on tradition are still taken into consideration, because of its closeness to the early Muslims. The Hanafi school of thought was the first hadith based school. And the Hanbali and Shafi schools students of two other school of thought, althought mainly hadith based schools of thought, do not completely write off tradition, but it plays a large part in how their edicts made.

I said all this to say, there are pros and cons to tradition. So, I understand the place of tradition.
 
Christians are suppose to believe that Jesus died on the cross as the Quran clearly states, they were made to believe that. So it is no surprise that historians may believe that he died. So we reject it because the Quran says, he didn’t died on the cross.

We also believe man was created, even if scientist believe we evolved from animals. Simply because the Quran says so.
Well, there’s a difference between ā€œbelievingā€ something and something being proven. I assumed that many Muslims would accept evolution and take the Qur’an symbolically like so many Christians have. There’s really no way around it. Evolution is fact.

Am I wrong to say that I assume Muslims accept evolution? I know they like to boast that their book is scientific so I assumed they would accept this scientific fact.
 
The problem is that the very apostles whom Christ chose, whom the quran says would be victorius to the day of ressurection believed Christ died as well. This is historically undeniable, it is historically undeniable that those immediately following the apostles believed the same thing.
I made this point in a different thread and it went ignored. No doubt the Qur’an says the Disciples of Jesus prevailed, as did those who accepted Jesus’s message. However, historically this is a big error.
 
Tradition is a very important aspect of Islam as well. Believe it or not, it is one of the reason that attracted me to Orthodox Christianity, and one of the reasons I would prefer it over Jehovah Witness even though they don’t believe Jesus is God. And tradition is a very important aspect of Orthodox Christianity as well.

Tradition is important, but tradition can be wrong. In Sunni Islam, we have different schools of thought in law and doctrine. These schools of thoughts try to balance scripture and tradition to arrive at the correct rulings and doctrine.

While there is a validity to the Orthodox/Catholic Churches at the same time, I believed they erred. I see it in Islam as well. Both have a strong tie to tradition, following councils (which to me is the same thing as ijma :consensus: in Islam), and its continuous chain back to the founder, be he Prophet Muhammad or Jesus. They can err in the analyzes of tradition and scripture, even in light of the Holy Spirit, or what we might term Ilham or Kashf (inspiration from God).

I said all that to say, I am not ignorant of tradition and its place or importance or value in our religions, be it Islam or Christianity. I mean, look at Priest not being allowed to marry in the Catholic church, this wasn’t a practice of the early Church. I mentioned that to indicate that things change with time, and thus tradition can change, and thus have the susceptibility of error.

In Islam, we speak of hadith, however in early Islam, tradition had more weight then hadiths. Because of the possibility of tradition changing, later scholars preferred to rely mainly on hadith, because hadiths were more verifiable. And easier to find additions. For example, a person in 632 AD said the Prophet said this. However in 646, the same person said something slightly different, we know something was added in between. The early schools of thoughts were based on the traditions of a particular region, the tradition of Syria, the tradition of Iraq, the tradition of Yemen, the tradition of Medinah, the tradition of Mecca etc etc. It was more difficult to verify tradition, because of the nature in how it is transmitted.

The tradition of Medinah is the only school that survived the test of time, and exist as the Maliki school of thought in this day and time. Although those other schools of thoughts died out, their rulings based on tradition are still taken into consideration, because of its closeness to the early Muslims. The Hanafi school of thought was the first hadith based school. And the Hanbali and Shafi schools students of two other school of thought, althought mainly hadith based schools of thought, do not completely write off tradition, but it plays a large part in how their edicts made.

I said all this to say, there are pros and cons to tradition. So, I understand the place of tradition.
ā€œTradition is important, but tradition can be wrong.ā€

Not tradition guided by the Holy Spirit.

I’ve always thought hadith are similar to the Bible and Catholic tradition. I think Catholic tradition can claim the same authoritarian chain as your hadith.

ā€œI mean, look at Priest not being allowed to marry in the Catholic church, this wasn’t a practice of the early Church.ā€

That is a poor example, and indicates you may not know as much as you think, all due respect. Celibacy by priests is a discipline, NOT doctrine. It can change at any time, while doctrine can’t. Eastern Catholic churches have married priests, for example.
 
ā€œTradition is important, but tradition can be wrong.ā€

Not tradition guided by the Holy Spirit.
This is debatable.
I’ve always thought hadith are similar to the Bible and Catholic tradition. I think Catholic tradition can claim the same authoritarian chain as your hadith.
If I were to class it.

I would say, the works of Old Testament would be equivalent to the Quran. Based on the words of Jesus, Search the Scripture, which he was talking about the old testament.

The Gospel only the words of Jesus and his actions would be equivalent to hadith.

The tradition of the early church would be classed as Amal, or tradition.
(In Islam not all scholars considered this to be authoritative, while other scholars did, such as the Maliki scholars. Imam Malik would sometimes prefer Amal over hadith, depending on the level or grade of hadith.)

And the sayings of disciples of Jesus would be classed as Athar, ie narrations.

Quran (Scripture)
Hadith (Sayings of the Prophet)
Amal (Tradition of the early Muslims)
Athar (Sayings of the Early Muslims)
ā€œI mean, look at Priest not being allowed to marry in the Catholic church, this wasn’t a practice of the early Church.ā€
That is a poor example, and indicates you may not know as much as you think, all due respect. Celibacy by priests is a discipline, NOT doctrine. It can change at any time, while doctrine can’t. Eastern Catholic churches have married priests, for example.
Perhaps it is a poor example. I am not well-versed in Orthodox/Catholic church to have a decent discussion on that matter. I only studied it for a year.

Perhaps, The doctrine of holy spirit preceding from Jesus is an addition to the Nicene Creed, innovated by the Catholic church, which is considered a heresy by the Orthodox Church. This is related to doctrine.

The Papacy - is another heresy of the Catholic church, according to the Orthodox Church.
 
Catholics believe those are both based on Holy Scripture, not tradition. The papacy dispute doesn’t affect salvation directly, imo. The two churches agree on most everything else.
And the Holy Spirit thing is a detail. Again, IMO.
 
Myself, I don’t think it is a waste of time to exchange different ideas, different opinions. It is interesting. And educational. That’s why people are here.

I think that Islam’s explanation for the Crucifixion, and its inability to provide the nebulous injeel it talks about are the weakest parts of the religion.
Absolutely. I cannot stress enough over the fact that real people experienced Jesus who walked on earth. Without the history and knowledge of the suffering endured by the early Christians (who witnessed Jesus and walked with him) is a huge factor.

MJ
 
I think the weakest point if Christianity is Jesus being God. I have read the Gospels and in all honesty I don’t see how the Early church embraced the idea that Jesus is God based on the gospels only. And I really tried to open minded about it for a whole year while studying Orthodox Christianity in the catchumen program as well as buying several books on its theology and as well as Protestant refutations of Jehovah witness on Jesus being God.

I understand how you embrace Jesus as God from a believers perspective and historically I can see what lead to that decision. But reading Jesus words alone, I don’t see it, I can see why the Arians broke away from the Church.
Sufi,

Jesus’ statements in the synoptics are all of the highest Christology. The parable of the tenants, Jesus claiming to be Lord of the Sabbath, Jesus forgiving sins – these all indicate that he thought of himself as equal with YHWH.

You don’t know how they embraced these ideas? Perhaps they actually experienced what is recorded in the NT documents. How else can you account for the very early devotion (see Larry Hurtado ā€œLord Jesus Christā€)? Were the apostles themselves deceived? Was Paul deceived? Paul in his letters and Luke writing Acts both concur independently that they were all on the same page regarding the core teachings of the faith.

As I investigated Islam, I wondered why God would allow a total corruption, nay, blasphemy, (since this is what Christianity is to a Muslim mind – complete and total blasphemy) to turn into a world religion. Why would God allow this prophet to have his message totally corrupted and misunderstood right from the get-go. This is troubling indeed.
 
Sufi,

Jesus’ statements in the synoptics are all of the highest Christology. The parable of the tenants, Jesus claiming to be Lord of the Sabbath, Jesus forgiving sins – these all indicate that he thought of himself as equal with YHWH.

You don’t know how they embraced these ideas? Perhaps they actually experienced what is recorded in the NT documents. How else can you account for the very early devotion (see Larry Hurtado ā€œLord Jesus Christā€)? Were the apostles themselves deceived? Was Paul deceived? Paul in his letters and Luke writing Acts both concur independently that they were all on the same page regarding the core teachings of the faith.

As I investigated Islam, I wondered why God would allow a total corruption, nay, blasphemy, (since this is what Christianity is to a Muslim mind – complete and total blasphemy) to turn into a world religion. Why would God allow this prophet to have his message totally corrupted and misunderstood right from the get-go. This is troubling indeed.
Why would God allow the Jews to go into captivity? There resides your answer.
 
My answer is that God would not do such a thing, i.e., deceive his people within the first generation of believers. Did you misunderstand my question?
 
My answer is that God would not do such a thing, i.e., deceive his people within the first generation of believers. Did you misunderstand my question?
God didn’t decieve anyone, people misunderstood message.
Sufi,

Jesus’ statements in the synoptics are all of the highest Christology. The parable of the tenants, Jesus claiming to be Lord of the Sabbath, Jesus forgiving sins – these all indicate that he thought of himself as equal with YHWH.

You don’t know how they embraced these ideas? Perhaps they actually experienced what is recorded in the NT documents. How else can you account for the very early devotion (see Larry Hurtado ā€œLord Jesus Christā€)? Were the apostles themselves deceived? Was Paul deceived? Paul in his letters and Luke writing Acts both concur independently that they were all on the same page regarding the core teachings of the faith.

As I investigated Islam, I wondered why God would allow a total corruption, nay, blasphemy, (since this is what Christianity is to a Muslim mind – complete and total blasphemy) to turn into a world religion. Why would God allow this prophet to have his message totally corrupted and misunderstood right from the get-go. This is troubling indeed.
There are alot of why questions?

Why does God have to send prophets, why can’t he just make us all prophets and cut out the middle man?

Why would God come as a man, when in the Old Testament, it says God is not a man? Isn’t God all knowing, why would he contradict himself, in such a manner? Why would he making believing Him as man so difficult and so confusing?

There are alot of why questions that be asked. And it is unanswered why questions that are essential to us as an individual that move us in the path that we now follow.

The message of Jesus is quite confusing on many levels. Here we have a Church, which has a mission to convert the world, yet according to Jesus, he was sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

One could argue well, Jesus sent his disciples to the world. I would reply, perhaps he sent disciples to the world to look for the lost sheep of the house of Israel. Jesus also said,
Many are called and few are chosen.

With regard to Jesus being God, I am not so certain that all the disciples believed what is written in the Nicene Creed. I think because of the ambiguity of the early church Fathers with regard to this subject, that this is the reason the Nicene creed was drafted. I don’t have access to all the writings of the early Church, so I can’t argue one way or the other except that the Arians believed Jesus was not God, and I would assume they too had access to the writings of the early church fathers. So I don’t think it was an absolute consensus that Jesus was God.
 
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