Do only Muslims reject the historical crucifixion?

[josesiem]

Nice way to dodge the questions. I find speaking with Muslims like trying to catch grab fish in a pond. Instead of answering, they bring up other questions, which have nothing to do with the original question.

So, God brought down the greatest prophet (Jesus, according to the Quran) and allowed his message to be corrupted from pure monotheism to outright blasphemy within a single generation.

As you would likely say, Subhanuallah. Allah does what He will and He knows best.

But that’s what you, as a Muslim, must believe. Because there is no doubt that within a generation – or ever earlier, as I’d say the original apostles all believed that Jesus was Lord – Jesus became Lord and thus God’s precious prophet’s light was immediately obscured and snuffed out, not to be seen again until 600 years later. This is indeed a monumental theological difficulty with Islam’s interpretation of Jesus. Of course, a much more serious difficulty is that Muhammad denies all of the central claims of Christianity: the atonement, the crucifixion, and the resurrection.

I guess Muhammad, living 600 years later, would know better.

 

[josesiem]

With regard to Jesus being God, I am not so certain that all the disciples believed what is written in the Nicene Creed. I think because of the ambiguity of the early church Fathers with regard to this subject, that this is the reason the Nicene creed was drafted. I don’t have access to all the writings of the early Church, so I can’t argue one way or the other except that the Arians believed Jesus was not God, and I would assume they too had access to the writings of the early church fathers. So I don’t think it was an absolute consensus that Jesus was God.

I’m not sure what the Church Fathers have to do with the unambiguous testimony of all 27 New Testament documents, the earliest documents in existence with respect to Jesus’ life. As for later heresies, it would be odd if there were no divisions, since this is what humans seem to be best at.

We have two independent sources (Luke writing Acts and Paul in his letters) confirming that the apostles (Peter, John, and Andrew) and Paul were on the same page with respect to the Gospel message. This meeting occurred in the 30s and then again in the 50s.

Like it or not, these are the earliest documents we have and therefore, in terms of historicity, the most reliable.

 

[Reuben_J]

There are alot of why questions?

Why does God have to send prophets, why can’t he just make us all prophets and cut out the middle man?

I am answering these question; just saying.

God gives us freewill and that we are humans with freedom of choice. We are called to be prophets though to proclaim his message. As for prophets, they were conduits for God to send his message to humankinds. The middle man is god’s prerogative.

Why would God come as a man, when in the Old Testament, it says God is not a man? Isn’t God all knowing, why would he contradict himself, in such a manner? Why would he making believing Him as man so difficult and so confusing?

God is not a man but he promise to be with man to save them. This probably you will not understand but your statement that God cannot be man is wrong. His nature is not man but he can be what he wants, if he wants to.

Only a dimwit would be confused actually. Or those who do not believe because they do not want to believe and their senses have been dull to discern the truth. So this kind of argument can be said both ways. They have eyes, they cannot see; they have ears but do not hear.

The message of Jesus is quite confusing on many levels. Here we have a Church, which has a mission to convert the world, yet according to Jesus, he was sent to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

This statement is out of ignorance of the Bible. The lost sheep of Israel were the original chosen people of God but who had fallen away from the God’s of their forefather. It is God’s unrelenting love to bring them back to the fold.

Jesus ultimate mission is for mankind as all must be saved. God faithfulness to the chosen people is due to his fidelity to the covenant he made with their fore-fathers. God said he remembers his covenant forever.

One must be very stupid, sorry to say that, if one confines the mission of Jesus only to Israel because there are so many statements by Jesus himself that his mission is for the whole world, once and for all.

The idea of the chosen people is important for the others to see that God is faithful and true to his promises. The glory of God would make others to believe. But in order to understand this, one must understand the background of the people in the ancient days.

One could argue well, Jesus sent his disciples to the world. I would reply, perhaps he sent disciples to the world to look for the lost sheep of the house of Israel.

Jesus did not say that though. Your perception is indeed false. You are cherry picking from the Bible without understanding.

Jesus also said,
Many are called and few are chosen.

Why did he say that? Because all are called to believe but only few actually believe. Many are called and came but many of these only are using the name of Jesus but do not do his will. And therefore they are not chosen. It is quite simple, really.

With regard to Jesus being God, I am not so certain that all the disciples believed what is written in the Nicene Creed.

Research ‘apostolic succession’. You appear to be very ignorant on thing like this.

I think because of the ambiguity of the early church Fathers with regard to this subject, that this is the reason the Nicene creed was drafted. I don’t have access to all the writings of the early Church, so I can’t argue one way or the other except that the Arians believed Jesus was not God, and I would assume they too had access to the writings of the early church fathers. So I don’t think it was an absolute consensus that Jesus was God.

There is no ambiguity on the part of the apostles. Certain people chose to believe differently. This always happen in all religions, Islam included. That is why leaders often make those clarifications.

 

[MartinJordan]

Jesus did not say that though. Your perception is indeed false. You are cherry picking from the Bible without understanding.

:sad_yes:

MJ

 

[IgnatianPhilo]

I made this point in a different thread and it went ignored. No doubt the Qur’an says the Disciples of Jesus prevailed, as did those who accepted Jesus’s message. However, historically this is a big error.

Suppose because there is no good islamic responce to it, it denies their faith and they cannot deny it. There was a gospel at the time of Muhammad Chrsitians were supposed to appeal to according to the quran, what else would that gospel be other than the four gospels? Perhaps some oral gospel but if that did exist there is no indication of it ever matching islam either by heretics or the victorius Christians of the day (ie the Western and Eastern Christians).

 

[TheSufi]

God is not a man but he promise to be with man to save them. This probably you will not understand but your statement that God cannot be man is wrong. His nature is not man but he can be what he wants, if he wants to.

Only a dimwit would be confused actually. Or those who do not believe because they do not want to believe and their senses have been dull to discern the truth. So this kind of argument can be said both ways. They have eyes, they cannot see; they have ears but do not hear.

And calling me stupid doesn’t make you right.

Jesus never said any of this rhetoric you have mention. **There is strong evidence that indicate that Jesus was not God. **God can be with us without becoming Man. God can save us without becoming man. In fact, God is not a man. (refer to the bible), yet God is with us right now. And Jesus never said I am God. if this is such an important aspect of believing in him, why didn’t he proclaim it in unambiguous way???

They have minds but do not understand, they have hearts but do not see God, they have spirit and do not know God, they have Jesus and do not with hold judgment.

 

[dronald]

You’re an intellectual idiot. Your knowledge exceeds what you able to process.your dogmatic beliefs has hindered your thought processes from being unbiased. You’re lost in the forest, claiming that you found the trees but unable to locate the forest. Because Jesus never said any of this rhetoric. **There is strong evidence that indicate that Jesus was not God. **God can be with us without becoming Man. God can save us without becoming man. In fact, God is not a man. (refer to the bible), yet God is with us right now. And Jesus never said I am God. if this is such an important aspect of believing in him, why didn’t he proclaim it in unambiguous way???

They have minds but do not understand, they have hearts but do not love. They have Jesus but do not with hold judgment.

If you’re trying to change the subject by dodging questions and creating new ones to derail the thread, then you’ve done well. If that’s not your purpose then let’s keep the thread going with the questions that have been dodged.

Q: Are Muslims the only ones who reject the historical crucifixion?
A: Yes, only Muslims believe that if Jesus existed then He was not crucified. The Qur’an is clear that it was made to appear that Jesus was crucified.

Q: Why did Allah trick his closest disciples?
A: Allah knows best?

Q: Why then does it say Jesus’s followers prevailed over the unbelievers?
A: Dodged… three times.

 

[TheSufi]

If you’re trying to change the subject by dodging questions and creating new ones to derail the thread, then you’ve done well. If that’s not your purpose then let’s keep the thread going with the questions that have been dodged.

Q: Are Muslims the only ones who reject the historical crucifixion?
A: Yes, only Muslims believe that if Jesus existed then He was not crucified. The Qur’an is clear that it was made to appear that Jesus was crucified.

Q: Why did Allah trick his closest disciples?
A: Allah knows best?

Q: Why then does it say Jesus’s followers prevailed over the unbelievers?
A: Dodged… three times.

God can do whatever he wants. God will question us but no one will question God.

How far do you think you will get by putting God on the stand?

 

[Mastiff_Eng]

God can do whatever he wants. God will question us but no one will question God.

How far do you think you will get by putting God on the stand?

No.

You do not worship the same God as Catholics do, If I were to say the truth I would no doubt get banned within several minutes.

 

[TheSufi]

As you would likely say, Subhanuallah. Allah does what He will and He knows best.

.

Both of us follow a religion, a system of beliefs. Many of these beliefs are based on faith in God and trust in those who transmitted God’s Message.

I don’t trust the church, you do.
You don’t trust Prophet Muhammad, I do.

And we both have faith that God is behind whom we trust.

 

[TheSufi]

No.

You do not worship the same God as Catholics do, If I were to say the truth I would no doubt get banned within several minutes.

Well, I worship the God of Abraham.

 

[Mastiff_Eng]

Well, I worship the God of Abraham.

Quote from
thegospelcoalition.org/blogs/tgc/2012/03/07/the-faqs-do-muslims-and-christians-worship-the-same-god/

"QUESTION: Do people of other religions worship the same God as Christians?

WARREN: Of course not. Christians have a view of God that is unique. We believe Jesus is God! We believe God is a Trinity: Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Not 3 separate gods but one God. No other faith believes Jesus is God. My God is Jesus. The belief in God as a Trinity is the foundational difference between Christians and everyone else. There are 2.1 billion people who call themselves Christians… whether Catholic, Orthodox, Protestant, Pentecostal, or Evangelical… and they all have the doctrine of the Trinity in common. Hindus, Muslims, Jehovah’s Witnesses, Christian Science, Unitarians, and everyone else do not accept what Jesus taught about the Trinity.

Since both Islam and Christianity are monotheistic, what would be wrong with claiming that Christians and Muslims worship the “same” God?

There are two reasons why we should refrain from agreeing to this claim: respect for truth and respect for the freedom of religious belief.

The first, and most important, reason is that Islam denies a fundamental truth that is necessary for the claim that Christians and Muslims worship the “same” God to be true. One of the basic axiomatic truths of Christianity is that God is Triune. While this can be a difficult doctrine to understand, almost all Christians would agree that Jesus is not a “part” or “attribute” of God but is one of three persons in the Trinity. A Christian cannot speak of “God” without including Christ.

When we claim that we worship the “same” God we are essentially saying that Jews and Muslims worship Christ but they just don’t know it. By taking this position we are either denying the validity of our belief in Christ or dismissing the Muslims’ belief that Jesus is not divine. In essence we are claiming either that (1) despite their denials to the contrary, Muslims recognize Jesus is God, or (2) that it is possible to know and worship God and yet deny that Christ is God."

 

[Reuben_J]

And calling me stupid doesn’t make you right.

Jesus never said any of this rhetoric you have mention. **There is strong evidence that indicate that Jesus was not God. **God can be with us without becoming Man. God can save us without becoming man. In fact, God is not a man. (refer to the bible), yet God is with us right now. And Jesus never said I am God. if this is such an important aspect of believing in him, why didn’t he proclaim it in unambiguous way???

They have minds but do not understand, they have hearts but do not see God, they have spirit and do not know God, they have Jesus and do not with hold judgment.

Of course calling you stupid does not make me right. Actually I was saying you are ignorant of the fact of the Bible. The reasoning is simple.

Granted that you, as a Muslim, do not believe that Jesus is God but you get that teaching from your religion, Islam. If you are arguing that Jesus is not God and you based that from the Bible, you would be likely wrong. I am tired of starting this argument because it has been beaten to death in this forum, but other Christians may want to humor you on that if you are really interested.

Considering that you are ignorant of the obvious fact from the Bible, I suggest you stick to defend your faith, Islam, from the Quran and not trying to venture into a subject that you do not know. I have caught you dishonestly saying that Jesus mission is only for the lost flock of Israel which is of course wrong. You conveniently ignore the fact that he said to the disciples to go out and bring the Good News not just in Jerusalem, or Judea and Samaria but to the end of the earth. There are more on that but what you are saying shows that you have not understood the message of the Bible, it is rather embarrassing actually. I thought we can have a more reasonable discourse here.

 

[dronald]

God can do whatever he wants. God will question us but no one will question God.

How far do you think you will get by putting God on the stand?

I would actually like the discussion to end here, unless another Muslim would like to give a try at the questions posed. As this answer is insufficient. The thread is about the questions I’ve asked and if the best Muslims have is “don’t question Allah” well then, so be it.

 

[Reuben_J]

And Jesus never said I am God.

This is simply hogwash. I have seen this one too often from Muslims. And what about if there is a verse in the Bible that Jesus says he is God. Would Muslims believe it then? Not likely, they would simply say it is corrupted or of later addition.

You see, all you reasonings are from the teaching of your religion and your referral point is the Quran. Your word in saying hypothetical statement like that makes no sense.

 

[TheSufi]

Of course calling you stupid does not make me right. Actually I was saying you are ignorant of the fact of the Bible. The reasoning is simple.

Granted that you, as a Muslim, do not believe that Jesus is God but you get that teaching from your religion, Islam. If you are arguing that Jesus is not God and you based that from the Bible, you would be likely wrong. I am tired of starting this argument because it has been beaten to death in this forum, but other Christians may want to humor you on that if you are really interested.

Considering that you are ignorant of the obvious fact from the Bible, I suggest you stick to defend your faith, Islam, from the Quran and not trying to venture into a subject that you do not know. I have caught you dishonestly saying that Jesus mission is only for the lost flock of Israel which is of course wrong. You conveniently ignore the fact that he said to the disciples to go out and bring the Good News not just in Jerusalem, or Judea and Samaria but to the end of the earth. There are more on that but what you are saying shows that you have not understood the message of the Bible, it is rather embarrassing actually. I thought we can have a more reasonable discourse here.

I don’t have to accept the Christian understanding of bible, no more than you have to accept the Jewish understanding of the Old Testament, Jews do not believe Jesus was the Messiah, nor do they believe Jesus is God, nor do they believe God will come as a man.

 

[Reuben_J]

I don’t have to accept the Christian understanding of bible, no more than you have to accept the Jewish understanding of the Old Testament, Jews do not believe Jesus was the Messiah, nor do they believe Jesus is God, nor do they believe God will come as a man.

Of course you don’t have to. But if you quote the Bible, then you have to stick to it and not just cherry pricking. Then I remind you about the mission of Jesus which you said erroneously only to the lost flock of Israel. This show you have not read the Bible further or in its entirety.

And it is futile that you should bring in the Jewish understanding which the Muslims do not agree either. If you should use the Jewish’s understanding, then you should also follow their belief of the Bible too which is not the case with the Quran. There are just too many contradictions between the Bible and the quran

 

[dronald]

Again, if one wants to make a topic on the differences between the Qur’an and the Bible, then feel free to do so.

Do you not realize you’re being baited away from the topic at hand because there is no sufficient answer? Essentially one must accept the Qur’an with blind faith because there is no Theology behind some of its claims, they’re just claims.

I however will not disregard the chance that some Muslims may have sufficient answers to the questions posed rather than saying, “don’t question Allah, just accept it.” Until then, please refer to what I said:

I would actually like the discussion to end here, unless another Muslim would like to give a try at the questions posed. As this answer is insufficient. The thread is about the questions I’ve asked and if the best Muslims have is “don’t question Allah” well then, so be it.

 

[TheSufi]

Of course you don’t have to. But if you quote the Bible, then you have to stick to it and not just cherry pricking. Then I remind you about the mission of Jesus which you said erroneously only to the lost flock of Israel. This show you have not read the Bible further or in its entirety.

No matter what dogma you follow, one will always be able to find contradictions between that dogma and the bible. It is through apologetics that we have answers to those contradictions.

It is the nature of interpretation, which exist in the nature of language, which is based on various factors.

And it is futile that you should bring in the Jewish understanding which the Muslims do not agree either.

it is not futile because believe that Prophets of the Old Testament are our prophets as well, and we also believe that Jesus is our prophet. We just believe that the Jews and Christians corrupted their message, and Prophet Muhammad corrected it. Because the Jews and Christians had problems with preserving their books in their purest forms, God ensured that the Quran would be preserved in its purest form, and it has. So it is not futile.

If you should use the Jewish’s understanding, then you should also follow their belief of the Bible too which is not the case with the Quran. There are just too many contradictions between the Bible and the quran

I met a Muslim a while back, I cannot remember the name of that group or sect that he followed, but he considered the Old Testament in its present form to be authentic. I argued with him, saying that Prophets are sinless according to Islam, and he simply reminded me that is according to Sunni Islam, not the Quran. I argued a couple of other things, and he replied.

So it all depends on how one understands the Quran, and how one understand the bible, as to whether or not one would find contradictions or not.

And God knows best.

 

[Reuben_J]

So it all depends on how one understands the Quran, and how one understand the bible, as to whether or not one would find contradictions or not.

And which Bible it is?