Do only Muslims reject the historical crucifixion?

[Reuben_J]

OK, probably you are getting closer to what the OP wants.

Let’s see. The Quran denies the crucifixion of Jesus, eg. Surah 4:157

The Bible narrates the passion and death of Jesus clearly and even in details, eg. Mathew 26-28, Mark 15-16, Luke 22-24, John 19-20. These are being referred to and confirmed in the epistles and the apocalyptic vision.

So Allah made the crucifixion ‘merely appear to them’ but Jesus himself was not crucified. Many scholars would disagree with you as the Bible is very clear on the crucifixion.

Even if we take the Quran’s assertion that it was not Jesus who was crucified but merely appeared so, then you should answer the OP categorically whether Allah deceived the people or not; and that this deceit should lead to an establishment of a religion (Christianity) based on this deceit? And why would God want to do that?

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

" Do only Muslims reject the historical crucifixion? "

Some of the Gnostics denied the Crucifixion as
well, as seen in the Coptic Apocalypse of Peter:
The Savior said to me,
“He whom you saw on the tree, glad and laughing, this is the living
Jesus. But this one into whose hands and feet they drive the nails
is his fleshly part, which is the substitute being put to shame, the
one who came into being in his likeness. But look at him and me.”
(Cop.Apo.Pet)

 

[TheSufi]

Even if we take the Quran’s assertion that it was not Jesus who was crucified but merely appeared so, then you should answer the OP categorically whether Allah deceived the people or not;

God wanted to protect the life of Jesus, and that is a good enough reason. Wouldn’t a father deceive the world to protect his son?

If one argues that Jesus needed to sacrificed, I would say not necessarily. A willingness to be sacrificed, is just as good as an actual sacrifice. Like story of Abraham and Isaac.

and that this deceit should lead to an establishment of a religion (Christianity) based on this deceit? And why would God want to do that?

1. Not all early Christians believed in the crucifixion.
2. God cannot force people to follow the truth.
3. God corrected the mistake with the coming of the Quran.
4. The establishment of a religion based on a heresy isn’t a proof that God supports it. i.e. Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons, Buddhism, Hinduism etc.

 

[Reuben_J]

God wanted to protect the life of Jesus, and that is a good enough reason. Wouldn’t a father deceive the world to protect his son?

This is interesting. Since you believe that Jesus is but a man then you have a God who protects a person at the expense of another person life. Perhaps the one who was crucified instead of Jesus was not God’s son then?

1. Not all early Christians believed in the crucifixion.

Really? Because not that I know of. Care to give examples?

Or is it like not all Muslims believe the same thing like the Ahamdis or the Bahais?

1. God cannot force people to follow the truth.

Amen.

1. God corrected the mistake with the coming of the Quran.

Great is the Lord. Allahu Akbhar.

Islam believes that God gave the Quran to correct his mistake because he had killed an innocent bystander in the place of Jesus at crucifixion and thus started a new religion, Christianity which is based on this mistake. Then he did damage control, sent a prophet to reveal the Quran to correct the mistake done. And Muslims say, Allahu Akbhar for what Allah had done.

Christians who had been deceived by Allah, says God is great (too), because God has sent his only Son to save them from sins so that they can have eternal life.

You would rather God should not have been so careless, would you?

 

[StrawberryJam]

Man is composed of a mind, body and a spirit. It is with the spirit that one can truly experience God directly, it is the only faculty of man that one can embrace the divine directly.

To me this is the ultimate goal of Islam. In Islam we call it Ihsan (Sufism, Tasawwuf), to worship God as though you see Him (because it is not with the physical eyes), because you see Him (because it is seeing with the spirit).

You know, when no one can tell you otherwise. It is not the same thing as what people call faith, but it is not other than that either, because that is where it starts, in the heart. Jesus spoke of this when he said, Blessed are those who are pure in heart for they shall see God. i know many commentators try to make it seem as if this is referring to death. perhaps this is why the sufi masters says, die before you die. Through the proper training under a sound Sufi master, God willing, anyone can experience the divine directly.

I’m a convert.

And it is God alone who gives Success.

Man is composed of a mind and body. Spirit is a thing believers add to this.

 

[TheSufi]

Man is composed of a mind and body. Spirit is a thing believers add to this.

Well, you can substitute the word spirit with consciousness, which is the word that Buddhist use for it.

There is a connection between mind and consciousness. Yet there is a difference. Mind relates to what I would call Logic, linear thinking. consciousness is awareness, and there are various types or levels of awareness. Logically awareness, emotional awareness, dream awareness - when we dream we accept what is in our dreams as real even though they are not logically. And then we wake up, what we accepted as real while dreaming is mere fantasy, because we don’t have access to that logical aspect of awareness, while dreaming. And that is why we accept it as real while dreaming.

 

[TheSufi]

This is interesting. Since you believe that Jesus is but a man then you have a God who protects a person at the expense of another person life. Perhaps the one who was crucified instead of Jesus was not God’s son

I don’t know complete history of the person who was crucified in his place, therefore I don’t if the person was innocent or not.

And I don’t think God is unjust.

 

[Reuben_J]

I don’t know complete history of the person who was crucified in his place, therefore I don’t if the person was innocent or not.

And I don’t think God is unjust.

Because you only have a line in Quran 4:157 against the literature of the four Gospels detailing the suffering and death of Jesus.

And God is certianly not unjust and you cannot find a reason why he deceived the people which result in a religion that in this reasoning caused millions, nearly a quarter of the population of the earth to be damned.

You cannot reason out why this god also took about 600 years later to correct this mistake. One would think if he should mininized the error he would not take 600 years to do it and allowed so many souls unsaved.

And yet you say Allah knows best. To me his best is certainly not good enough.

 

[TheSufi]

Because you only have a line in Quran 4:157 against the literature of the four Gospels detailing the suffering and death of Jesus.

And God is certianly not unjust and you cannot find a reason why he deceived the people which result in a religion that in this reasoning caused millions, nearly a quarter of the population of the earth to be damned.

You cannot reason out why this god also took about 600 years later to correct this mistake. One would think if he should mininized the error he would not take 600 years to do it and allowed so many souls unsaved.

And yet you say Allah knows best. To me his best is certainly not good enough.

This one line is not the reason I’m not Christian. Nor do I think all Christians are damned to hell.

 

[Reuben_J]

I don’t have to accept the Christian understanding of bible, no more than you have to accept the Jewish understanding of the Old Testament, Jews do not believe Jesus was the Messiah, nor do they believe Jesus is God, nor do they believe God will come as a man.

I know. You already said that and I said of course you don’t have to accept the Christian understanding of the Bible. Yet you comment on the Biblical verses even though you did not say which specifically.

So I said, have you read the Bible and what is your understanding of its message in its entirety? Then I gave you specific Biblical passages and also point to you a Quranic verse. So have you read these? What is your comment on what are written on the passages?

Saying that you have different understanding as a reason for your disagreement is pretty much evading the question and more look like you are denying what is written in the book. Sorry to say that.

 

[Reuben_J]

And we are not even talking about whether Jesus is the Messiah or God, a topic you tried to insert into the discussion of the thread. This is about the crucifixion of Jesus unless you want to derail it.

 

[dronald]

God wanted to protect the life of Jesus, and that is a good enough reason. **Wouldn’t a father deceive the world **to protect his son?

God could have brought Jesus to Heaven if that was His will without deceiving the world. I think it’s compelling that you have admitted here that the Father did in fact deceive the world to save His Son.

If one argues that Jesus needed to sacrificed, I would say not necessarily. A willingness to be sacrificed, is just as good as an actual sacrifice. Like story of Abraham and Isaac.

But then how would all things be accomplished? Taken straight from Jesus’s mouth:

Matthew 26:53 Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? 54But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?"

Although, this could be yet another famous corruption. I mean, it has to be right?

Islam can only be true if one takes Jesus’s words out of context and then claims the words that can’t be taken out of context are just corrupt.

1. Not all early Christians believed in the crucifixion.

Not only did all Christians believe in the crucifixion in the first century (after the crucifixion) but so did non-Christians. Please refer to post #1 of this thread.

1. God cannot force people to follow the truth.

Amen.

1. God corrected the mistake with the coming of the Quran.

And if it were true, what a mistake it was!

1. The establishment of a religion based on a heresy isn’t a proof that God supports it. i.e. Jehovah Witnesses, Mormons, Buddhism, Hinduism etc.

…Islam

Think of how Mormonism was founded… Now think about how Islam was founded.

 

[TheSufi]

God could have brought Jesus to Heaven if that was His will without deceiving the world. I think it’s compelling that you have admitted here that the Father did in fact deceive the world to save His Son.

Well, it is probably not befitting to use the world deceive with God, this is true. Perhaps it would be better to say, God veiled Jesus to protect him. ANd Christians merely misunderstood, the disciples of Jesus misunderstood what was happening. But God does things that we might class as negative. God kills, perhaps it is better to say God takes the life of someone.

From now on, I will seek to use better wording with God. As this would be proper adab (manners).

But then how would all things be accomplished? Taken straight from Jesus’s mouth:

Matthew 26:53 Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? 54But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?"

1.) I don’t consider the gospels to be 100% accurate.
2) If I did consider it accurate, perhaps I could argue, just like with Abraham and Isaac, the actual sacrifice does not need to take place.
3) Jesus did pray and ask God to not be sacrificed.

Islam can only be true if one takes Jesus’s words out of context and then claims the words that can’t be taken out of context are just corrupt.

to me, what is the proper context, there exist many early Christian groups, Gnostics, Ebionites, people who had the current Christian veiws, and various others. Anything can be argued.

Just like in Islam we had various early Muslims, the khawadaj, the mutazila, the shia etc.

Not only did all Christians believe in the crucifixion in the first century (after the crucifixion) but so did non-Christians. Please refer to post #1 of this thread.

To you this means something, but to me it means nothing. If the Quran says, it was made to believe that Jesus died, then both non-Christians and Christians would believe the Jesus died.

…Islam

Think of how Mormonism was founded… Now think about how Islam was founded.

There is a big to difference to me. For me, in order to have a sound religion, there has to exist a spiritual path for the believers, to witness God or experience God.

this is why I have more respect for Catholics and Orthodox Christianity, than I do Jehovah Witnesses (who don’t have believe Jesus is God), because Jehovah Witnesses do not have a sound spiritual path to experience God or witness God. So for me, Orthodox and Catholics have sound origins, even if certain aspects of the message is corrupt, because it has a sound spiritual path. So if Islam did not exist, and there were only Christians, I would pick to follow Orthodox Christianity over Jehovah Witnesses, because Orthodox Christianity has a sound spiritual path to experience God directly.

Mormonisn, Jehovah Witnesses, most if not all protestant Christianity, do not have a sounnd spiritual path. You are completely wasting your time to draw that analogy, for me anyway. Islam is like Mormonisn, are you kidding me? Have you even studied their theology?

To try and compare, the Book of Mormon to the Quran, is a big laugh, The Book of Mormon is a horrible book. It is not even literature. Have you read it? they also have the doctrine and covenant. When you compare the writing the style of the different prophets of the book of mormons, the writing style is all the same, which indicates that book is made up. the bible, even with the same translators, the writing style of each prophet is different.

For Muslims we say, the writing style (syntax) of the quran vs hadith is different, and this is one of our proof, that the Quran is the word of God and the hadiths are the words of Prophet Muhammad.

 

[Judas_Thaddeus]

Come to think of it, I don’t know if every branch of Judaism proscribes
to the Talmud, but the Talmud does say that Jesus was stoned and/or
hanged to death":

• Babylonian Sanhedrin 43a-b -“on the eve of Passover they hanged Jesus the Nazarene” (Editions or MSs: Herzog 1, Karlsruhe 2)
• Babylonian Sanhedrin 43a-b – “Jesus the Nazarene is going forth to be stoned” (Editions or MSs: Herzog 1, Firenze II.1.8–9, Karlsruhe 2)

The Mandaeans seem to have a similar story in their Miryai Saga, though
it is uncertain if it is talking about Jesus or Paul* or someone else*: ALL the Jews gathered together, the teachers, the great and the little; they came [together] and spake of Miryai: “She ran away from the priests, fell in love with a man, and they took hold of each other’s hands… …We will slay them and make Miryai scorned in Jerusalem. A stake2 will we set up for the man who has ruined Miryai and led her away.”

Gnostic John the Baptizer:Selections from the Mandæan John-Book

II.—THE STORY OF THE BREACH WITH JUDAISM.

THE JEWS PERSECUTE THE MANDÆANS (§ 35 CONTD.).​

2 In the Lud (cp. note on R. Eliezar, founder of the Lud school in § 18, p. 34) Ben Stada Talmūd Jesus stories, Jeshu is stoned and hanged on a stake afterwards (see D. J. L. 100 B.C.?—pp. 176ff.). It was the custom for the dead body after the stoning (e.g. of an adulterer, or of a fornicator—i.e. heretic) to be exposed on a stake or post.
​

*(See also link [The Mandaean Gnostic Texts (Mandaean Gnostic texts))

( Doubt it need be said, but I do
not proscribe to these beliefs )
​

 

[dronald]

Well, it is probably not befitting to use the world deceive with God, this is true. Perhaps it would be better to say, God veiled Jesus to protect him. ANd Christians merely misunderstood, the disciples of Jesus misunderstood what was happening. But God does things that we might class as negative. God kills, perhaps it is better to say God takes the life of someone.

From now on, I will seek to use better wording with God. As this would be proper adab (manners).

I still don’t see the reasoning. God confused and mislead many people with his “making it appear as if Jesus was crucified.”

1. Jesus did pray and ask God to not be sacrificed.

And then said that it must be accomplished, in the same place.

to me, what is the proper context, there exist many early Christian groups, Gnostics, Ebionites, people who had the current Christian veiws, and various others. Anything can be argued.

Just like in Islam we had various early Muslims, the khawadaj, the mutazila, the shia etc

Yet all first century Christian and non-Christian writings attest to a man being crucified.

To you this means something, but to me it means nothing. If the Quran says, it was made to believe that Jesus died, then both non-Christians and Christians would believe the Jesus died.

I agree. If the Qur’an is true, and it says that everyone was supposed to believe that Jesus really did die, then one can certainly accept that everyone believed Jesus really did die. No doubt.

It just makes absolutely no sense that God would mislead everyone.

There is a big to difference to me. For me, in order to have a sound religion, there has to exist a spiritual path for the believers, to witness God or experience God.

this is why I have more respect for Catholics and Orthodox Christianity, than I do Jehovah Witnesses (who don’t have believe Jesus is God), because Jehovah Witnesses do not have a sound spiritual path to experience God or witness God. So for me, Orthodox and Catholics have sound origins, even if certain aspects of the message is corrupt, because it has a sound spiritual path. So if Islam did not exist, and there were only Christians, I would pick to follow Orthodox Christianity over Jehovah Witnesses, because Orthodox Christianity has a sound spiritual path to experience God directly.

Mormonisn, Jehovah Witnesses, most if not all protestant Christianity, do not have a sounnd spiritual path. You are completely wasting your time to draw that analogy, for me anyway. Islam is like Mormonisn, are you kidding me? Have you even studied their theology?

To try and compare, the Book of Mormon to the Quran, is a big laugh, The Book of Mormon is a horrible book. It is not even literature. Have you read it? they also have the doctrine and covenant. When you compare the writing the style of the different prophets of the book of mormons, the writing style is all the same, which indicates that book is made up. the bible, even with the same translators, the writing style of each prophet is different.

For Muslims we say, the writing style (syntax) of the quran vs hadith is different, and this is one of our proof, that the Quran is the word of God and the hadiths are the words of Prophet Muhammad.

They are certainly different Religions. I’m applying your quote “The establishment of a religion based on a heresy isn’t a proof that God supports” back to Islam. You used Mormonism as an example.

A Religion coming hundreds of years later changing everything everyone believes by a Prophet who talked to an Angel of God. This happened in both Islam and Mormonism, and yet you’re saying the Religion that came out of the 1st century, immediately following the death of Christ is the false one.

 

[LtTony]

1. Not all early Christians believed in the crucifixion.

Really? Because not that I know of. Care to give examples?

Question not answered.

 

[LtTony]

God wanted to protect the life of Jesus, and that is a good enough reason. Wouldn’t a father deceive the world to protect his son?

I thought Islam says Jesus is not the Son of God.

Islam believes that God gave the Quran to correct his mistake because he had killed an innocent bystander in the place of Jesus at crucifixion and thus started a new religion, Christianity which is based on this mistake. Then he did damage control, sent a prophet to reveal the Quran to correct the mistake done. And Muslims say, Allahu Akbhar for what Allah had done.

Christians who had been deceived by Allah, says God is great (too), because God has sent his only Son to save them from sins so that they can have eternal life.

You would rather God should not have been so careless, would you?

… And God is certianly not unjust and you cannot find a reason why he deceived the people which result in a religion that in this reasoning caused millions, nearly a quarter of the population of the earth to be damned.

You cannot reason out why this god also took about 600 years later to correct this mistake. One would think if he should mininized the error he would not take 600 years to do it and allowed so many souls unsaved.

And yet you say Allah knows best. To me his best is certainly not good enough

Great response.

I don’t know complete history of the person who was crucified in his place, therefore I don’t if the person was innocent or not.

Yet a person is banking their entire soul on incomplete history of an unknown person of an unknown background.

God could have brought Jesus to Heaven if that was His will without deceiving the world. I think it’s compelling that you have admitted here that the Father did in fact deceive the world to save His Son.

But then how would all things be accomplished? Taken straight from Jesus’s mouth:

Matthew 26:53 Do you think I cannot call on my Father, and he will at once put at my disposal more than twelve legions of angels? 54But how then would the Scriptures be fulfilled that say it must happen in this way?"

Islam can only be true if one takes Jesus’s words out of context and then claims the words that can’t be taken out of context are just corrupt.

More points that bear repeating. I hope people who are searching for answers about Islam are reading this, because dronald and a couple of others are really taking Mohammad’s version of things to task. As I’ve said, Islam’s fatal mistake is its lack of an explanation for the death and resurrection of Christ.

Well, it is probably not befitting to use the world deceive with God, this is true. Perhaps it would be better to say, God veiled Jesus to protect him. ANd Christians merely misunderstood, the disciples of Jesus misunderstood

Misunderstood. Does it say that in the Koran?

 

[kimg901]

No more revelation was needed after Christ. So do you muslims think God messed up the first time He set up His Church? Is God a deceiver? Would God lead billions into deception?

 

[Reuben_J]

@ LtTony. I know we have been dialoging/discussing with Muslims on Christianity/Islam issues.

My experience is that Muslims usually took similar line of argument and my reason to continue with TheSufi is hoping whether he will come out with anything different.

Basically Muslims are creating strawman, imposing it as Christian belief and attack it so as to justify their own belief.

Basically their lines are:
The present Bible is corrupt and therefore not all that are in it is to be believed, the Quran being the final referral point. How many times have we heard thing like, “Jesus did not say he is God”.

TheSufi has not been particularly honest by cherry picking the Bible and then saying he has different understanding of it.

As for the crucifixion, this must be their greatest headache and they have no answer for it except to say the Quran says so. If they refer to the Bible they would be dead because the Bible unequivocally tells us that Jesus is crucified.

They cannot concretely defend Surah 4:157 simply because there is so little information about the crucifixion. It merely state that it was not Jesus. They don’t know who was crucified instead. In fact for their Allah to come up with 4:157 creates tons of questions for them to answer which they can’t except by saying that the Quran says so and Allah knows best. Talking about blind faith.

 

[LtTony]

1. Not all early Christians believed in the crucifixion.

Really? Because not that I know of. Care to give examples?

Reuben’s question still not answered. People on the internet often throw stuff against the wall to see if it sticks. This may be one of those cases.