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reb108
Guest
“I learned in the depths of my soul how horrible sin was, even the smallest sin, and how much it tormented the soul of Jesus” St. Maria Faustina
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devoutchristian
Guest
Mystics are prone to using figurative language. No, our sins to not literally cause spiritual pain or pain in the present time, although they did cause his Crucifixtion.
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R_C
Guest
This is my understanding: Jesus has a human heart. He experiences human feelings. Thus, He can suffer.
Some argue God does not suffer. This is sound and reasonable.
But I do believe that Christ, because of His humanity and His Sacred Heart, does experience sorrow before sins and lost souls. This is what most mystics convey to experience in private revelations - a suffering Christ asking them to offer penance and do reparation to help sinners and to console His Sacred Heart.
And of course, each sin individually contributes to the sum total of the sufferings the Lord endured in the Passion.
Some argue God does not suffer. This is sound and reasonable.
But I do believe that Christ, because of His humanity and His Sacred Heart, does experience sorrow before sins and lost souls. This is what most mystics convey to experience in private revelations - a suffering Christ asking them to offer penance and do reparation to help sinners and to console His Sacred Heart.
And of course, each sin individually contributes to the sum total of the sufferings the Lord endured in the Passion.
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mymamamary
Guest
**Yes they do. Our sins were what literally crucified Christ, and in addition to this, His Sacred Heart is Human and can feel the pain of rejection (something that we cause when we sin and reject Christ). Hence the whole idea of “reparation”. **
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devoutchristian
Guest
Christ’s human body has been supernaturally glorified.
po18guy
Well-known member
But He still bears the wounds, which Thomas probed in the upper room.
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devoutchristian
Guest
And yet he suffers not anymore.
po18guy
Well-known member
Jesus is outside of time. Does this affect the picture at all?
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Ion
Guest
No injury.
But I think there is a implicit form of ?torment? for the martyrs in heavens, book of revelation 6:9
“When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters,[e] were killed just as they had been.”
They do not like to see that there is still sin on Earth. But their suffering is not the same as the punishment for sin. How can you call it?
But I think there is a implicit form of ?torment? for the martyrs in heavens, book of revelation 6:9
“When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10 They called out in a loud voice, “How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?” 11 Then each of them was given a white robe, and they were told to wait a little longer, until the full number of their fellow servants, their brothers and sisters,[e] were killed just as they had been.”
They do not like to see that there is still sin on Earth. But their suffering is not the same as the punishment for sin. How can you call it?
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The_GreyPilgrim
Guest
I don’t think that the suffering we experience in time can be compared with anything that God may experience in His eternity. We suffer according to our nature and the limited understanding that we have. Suffering comes from the lack of understanding of why a thing is happening, like emotional or physical pain, to us in a certain time and circumstance.
It may be that all these various emotions that we experience in certain times and for certain reasons in God’s eternity may, or in fact does, all blend with His perfect knowledge and all the rest of His being.
How He experiences it is a mystery to us, but if we are images of His likeness, I don’t think that it is out of the realm of possibility, just not how we think.
It may be that all these various emotions that we experience in certain times and for certain reasons in God’s eternity may, or in fact does, all blend with His perfect knowledge and all the rest of His being.
How He experiences it is a mystery to us, but if we are images of His likeness, I don’t think that it is out of the realm of possibility, just not how we think.
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devoutchristian
Guest
Certainly. Yet the suffering occurred within time, so while the atonement can properly be described as an “eternal event”, the suffering per se occurred only during his time on Earth.
po18guy
Well-known member
So, how does this concept affect the mass? If the sacrifice is made present during the mass, why isn’t His suffering also present? Aren’t we at the foot of the cross during mass?
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Ion
Guest
“For our sake he was crucified
under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered died and was buried.”
The breaking of the bread is symbolic(suffered died and was buried), but the result is real.
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Mount_Carmel
Guest
Jesus was/is totally human as well as Divine. In His humanity He did suffer terribly - at Gethsemane He asked if the cup of bitterness, anguish and pain could pass Him by - but also being perfect/sinless human He was humble and obedient to the Divine Will.
According to Jesus in His apparition to St.Bridget [of Sweden], “I received 5,480 blows to my body” - this presumeably in addition to the emotional distress of His perfect soul and spirituality taking on/experiencing the sins of all of humanity.
Whatever happened/happens within the Divine Nature, it is motivated by a LOVE beyond our comprehension, and any ‘feelings’ there may be, will be similarly sourced.
Jesus has a memory through all eternity that is perfect and includes all the physical and emotional distress His human frame and mind will have experienced while physically on earth. His Pain as well as His Glory and Happiness/Bliss will always be part and parcel of His unique onenness with God AND humanity.
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POJIUJH
Guest
Perhaps a suffering out of an unselfish pity for a creature is a heavenly quality and not a detraction to it.
In any case, any sin today torments Christ on the cross.
In any case, any sin today torments Christ on the cross.
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reb108
Guest
Isn’t the Holy Spirit within the heart of every creature, aware in real-time of any transgression? From this Jesus knows everything, up to the minute. So if He knows, and He tells St. Faustina that He feels injured, I can accept this. I am not suggesting any particular “way” that He feels. The report of a misbehaved child in school can pain the parents. My thanks for all the comments.
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devoutchristian
Guest
Yes, we’re mystically present at Calvary during the Mass, yet the sacrifice is not thereby repeated. Obviously, Jesus remembers his suffering, but just as the saints do not experience suffering by reason of being aware of their sufferings during life, so too Jesus would not experience suffering by reason of remembering his suffering on Earth.
po18guy
Well-known member
So, my sins can no longer hurt Him? I’m free!!! If I desired to go to hell, I could sin at will without ever causing Him pain. After all, He paid the price way back then. Doesn’t this seem like fundamentalist error?
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devoutchristian
Guest
No. Your (the generic you) sins cause him pain, but this pain was experienced then, not now. God is outside of time and so it is incorrect to think of God in the present as being logically disconnected from God in the past. Your sins still cause his pain in the logical sense, even though his pain preceded your sins chronologically.
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