Do parish priests have the right to use only boy altar boys?

[davy39]

I believe our current vocation crisis is caused by many things, not the least being the priest sex scandels, the bad publicity that goes along with it, some dioceses declaring bankruptsey, and the breakup of family life in this country. If you had a son that showed some interest in becoming a priest, how can you argue with someone that asks why he would want to become part of all of this? I’m just saying that we have a lot bigger problems that female altar servers. You never know. The girls might want to go on to a vocation for themselves as a result of serving at Mass. OK, I’m done. Let me have it.

 

[Paed]

Hello ZU-ZU

ZUZU I am not sure what generation you are from. I wonder though how much recollection you have of prior to the disasterous changes that bring us the current state of the church…especially the Mass. A female wearing a cassock and a surplice makes about as much sense as a bride showing up in a Tuxedo or the groom showing up in a wedding dress. No wait its worse. The cassocks and surplices are priestly garb which is the exact same thing the seminarians who are instituted as acolytes and lectors wear…Now with that in mind acolytes and lectors are the remnants of the 4 minor orders of the priesthood. The insititution of acolytes and lectors is open to men only and there are some married men in this “office”.

I can give you an example of what happened to me in the mid-late 1970s. Being an alar BOY in my parish was an absoute HONOR. There was at least 2-3 dozen of us. We had the older boys (those who were about to move on to college) as mentors. WHen we were indcuted into the altar boys the director held up a Cassock and surplice and informed us of the importance that our “vestments” were in resemblence to the priests. He cut NO CORNERS in telling us that the PRIMARY purpose for us being altar boys was to invite each boy into the serious discernment of the priesthood. He told us that our actions on the altar were a trial for us. I distinctly rememer putting the cassock and suplice on for the first time and really really taking note that I was “vesting” very similarly to the priest. It was a feeling of awe. I know of 3 boys two classmates of mine and one senior boy who were very likely priest candidates …especially the senior boy. a few years after I entered the altar boys a new DRE showed up at our parish and held an “liturgical assistant” meeting…I wasn’t going to go until my mother told me that was the new word for altar boy. At the meeting there was a row of about 10 girls sitting in the back…they were the new “indcutiees”. I also took not of the new thing called an alb that we were going to wear. Within 1 month half the altar boys left the service and within 2 years there were more girls than boys. Now 30 years later I visit my old home parish and there are NO male altar servers older than 11 years old. I asked my mother and she implied to me that most boys wont do it because it is a girl thing. you cannot tell me that the male only Altar server has not had a significant impact on vocations. I know of at least 3 boys who didn’t follow thier calling. If you think about it it would be impossible to explain nowadays to the servers that it was prep for the priesthood.

 

[PatienceAndLove]

As a former alter server, it is totally true that serving impacts the religious decision. I was bound and determined to become a priest, no matter what the Chuch said. I got to be up on the alter serving, why couldn’t I just go all the way.
As I look back, allowing girls to serve is detrimental to the survival of the Church.
I read on another thread about a priest who instituted a male-only policy on the servers, and encouraged the girls to join the alter society or the choir, both very important jobs. However, because of the current state of our society, because these weren’t “high profile” jobs, the girls didn’t want them. And because of the lack of understand of the purpose of serving, the girls didn’t understand the importance of male-only servers.
As for whole family acolytes (perhaps a better term is needed), I see no problem with them, as long as they are not operating in an alter server copacity, which I have seen. Other times, I have seen the family “acolytes” operating, that Sunday, as greeters, ushers, assisting with making sure things are in place and go for Mass, picking up in the pews, etc.

 

[cue]

The fact that serving for girls is a “dead end” is irrelevant.

We are speaking of a pastor’s choice and possible means of fostering vocations is definitely not irrelevant to a man entrusted with the care of souls. We are discussing a pastor’s right not to use girl servers. We had maintained that he does have that right, since

the non-ordained faithful do not have a right to service at the altar, rather they are capable of being admitted to such service by the Sacred Pastors.

Letter from the Congregation for Divine Worship and the Discipline of the Sacraments

I was taking it further, explaining that he not only has the right, but, in our current situation of ‘vocation crisis’, has a duty to so. Why do I say this? A boy-only policy is a way of fostering vocations and right now we need to do eveything we can to foster vocations.

NB - I am saying that female servers caused this ‘crisis’ but only that it does not help matters.

• I am not saying that the girls who serve want to be priests, but that the push that lead to get permission for girl servers in the Church was backed in part by feminists who want the Church to ordain women.

 

[zuzu]

Did all altar boys grow up to be priests?. I doubt it.
It’s great that you can all point to instances where these boys followed their calling and went on to seminary.
How many of them eventually ‘dropped out’ though?
How many actually went on to be ordained?

In my own parish, none of the current altar boys want to go on to the priesthood (and not because of the female servers either). Does that mean they have no right to be a server or wear the ‘cherished’ cassock?
Maybe our next crop of altar boys will be different, and produce some future priests. Who knows, but what has that got to do with whether or not girls are allowed to serve? - i just don’t get it.
I’m not being deliberatly obtuse, and i’m not (for the umpteenth time) trying to ‘feminize’ the clergy. The idea of female priests fills me with dread. But why oh why is there all this bickering about the rights and wrongs of female altar servers?

I too am HONOURED to serve at Gods altar. It is a great privilege - i know it is not a ‘right’. I wear a cassock, and i sometimes wear an alb (which incidentally, is also clerical dress). So what!
I am not a threat to the male institution, nor am i an insult to my gender. I am a devoted child of God who loves her faith, and has a great love for the Eucharist.
Surely it should possible to move with the times without being disrespectful, or is that just ‘pie in the sky’?

Our Lord was scorned and berated by the chief priests and rabbis for allowing a woman to annoint his feet (to ‘serve’ Him, in other words), and He reproached them for it. Radical !!

There is more to the vocations crisis than the introduction of female servers, and the Church has nothing to fear. She will continue to grow, regardless.

In love and peace
Suze

 

[homewardbound]

I’m not sure how I feel about this issue on the whole. I suppose enough that I would never be an alter server and if I ever have a daughter she will never be one either. Its really up to the Church and the diocese whether they want females serving. As long the Church deems it allowed, I cannot say it is 100% wrong. However, I would feel weird serving and I think those women who serve when there are men present who could take their place should step down. Otherwise, anyone should be able to alter serve where they are needed.

 

[cue]

Did all altar boys grow up to be priests?. I doubt it.
It’s great that you can all point to instances where these boys followed their calling and went on to seminary.
How many of them eventually ‘dropped out’ though?
How many actually went on to be ordained?
(…)
There is more to the vocations crisis than the introduction of female servers, and the Church has nothing to fear. She will continue to grow, regardless.

The workings of God in a human soul are not completely known to men. If there were a guranteed process of producing priests, we would be in a much different situation. However, we can only try to help foster a young man’s openess to God and the priesthood and let the Holy Ghost do the rest. I suppose we could just not do anything and test to see if the Holy Ghost can still bring a man to the priesthood, but I prefer to do what I am able to do in the service of the Gospel. Part of charity is encouraging others in doing God’s will. The issue is that our pastor’s have a choice between a policy that encourages vocations or a policy that does not. Does the policy that does not encourage vocations offer any other equal or higher good? No. So pastors should choose to encourage vocations.

But why oh why is there all this bickering about the rights and wrongs of female altar servers?

If there is no agenda here, then there should be no objection to wanting to encourage vocations to the priesthood.

Surely it should possible to move with the times without being disrespectful, or is that just ‘pie in the sky’?

“Move with the times”… so…, is that what this is about? In that case, the argument is whether ‘moving with the times’ is more important than encouraging priestly vocations.

Our Lord was scorned and berated by the chief priests and rabbis for allowing a woman to annoint his feet (to ‘serve’ Him, in other words), and He reproached them for it. Radical !!

It looks like there may be a misunderstanding here. Do you believe you are not able to ‘serve’ Christ without serving at the altar? Or that the altar service is ‘better’ or the only service that matters? Quite the contrary, the laity are called to participate in the congregation, a participation which is genuine and engaged. Part of the joy of Christ’s message was that anyone could serve him and love him, not matter what your sex or state in life. If you believe that you would not be serving Christ (or serve him ‘as much’) if you stopped serving at the altar, I think you may be confused about something.

PS - Perhaps you do not agree to my statement that a boy-only policy encourages vocations. Here is my argument in a nut-shell:

• Allowing both boys and girls reduces serving to a functional activity. “We need help to do this thing.” Or “We need people to do this thing.”
• A boys-only policy ties serving to the all-male priesthood therefore adding a vocational element to the function of serving.

NB - The Church intends that no women are in the sanctuary when she states that the ideal is to have instituted ministers who must be men (Ministeria Quaedam).

 

[cue]

I am saying that female servers caused this ‘crisis’ but only that it does not help matters.

Sorry, I cannot type sometimes. It should be:

I am NOT saying that female servers caused this ‘crisis’ but only that it does not help matters.

 

[dylanschrader]

This is the Vatican Communication on Female Altar Servers from 1994:

ewtn.com/library/curia/cdwcomm.htm

The bishop may permit in his own diocese the use of female altar servers. He may not require their use as has been established.

Seeing as how the minor orders, suppressed by Ministeria Quaedam, persist in the ministries of lector and acolyte, these are the ones the Church has officially entrusted with the task of proclaiming the readings and assisting the deacon at the altar.

Lay people are allowed to perform these functions in the absence of an instituted lector or acolyte.

Both ministries have an objective orientation to the priesthood. Because of this–even though this is a disciplinary matter of the Church–only men may be lectors or acolytes. Not because they will necessarily be priests but because they are objectively capable of priesthood.

The Church is affirming the orientation of reading and serving at the altar to the priesthood. This must be taken into account.

 

[zuzu]

We are speaking of a pastor’s choice and possible means of fostering vocations is definitely not irrelevant to a man entrusted with the care of souls. We are discussing a pastor’s right not to use girl servers. We had maintained that he does have that right, since

Of course a pastors right to choose (etc) is not irrelevant, but that is not what i meant. Besides, what about the many pastors who choose, with their bishops permission, to have female servers? By the same token their choice is not irrelevant either. Or would you disagree?

Females have been granted permission to become altar servers since 1994. No one is saying this is an absolute right, and nothing is set in stone, but if the Church in her wisdom, has seen fit to allow this permission to be granted through her bishops, who am i to argue?

As a 53 year old British female altar server, i have been enrolled into the Guild of St.Stephen, which operates as part of an Archconfraternity from Westminster Cathedral. We were given the blessing of the late Cardinal Basil Hume, and have the continued support of Cardinal Cormac Murhpy-O’Connor, In respect of this issue, i follow the guidance respect the judgement of such men as these.

There may come a time when Holy Mother Church decidesto repeal her decision on female servers, but until then, i shall continue to serve Our Blessed Lord - with or without my cassock

love to you
suze

 

[zuzu]

The workings of God in a human soul are not completely known to men. If there were a guranteed process of producing priests, we would be in a much different situation. However, we can only try to help foster a young man’s openess to God and the priesthood and let the Holy Ghost do the rest. I suppose we could just not do anything and test to see if the Holy Ghost can still bring a man to the priesthood, but I prefer to do what I am able to do in the service of the Gospel. Part of charity is encouraging others in doing God’s will. The issue is that our pastor’s have a choice between a policy that encourages vocations or a policy that does not. Does the policy that does not encourage vocations offer any other equal or higher good? No. So pastors should choose to encourage vocations.

If there is no agenda here, then there should be no objection to wanting to encourage vocations to the priesthood.

“Move with the times”… so…, is that what this is about? In that case, the argument is whether ‘moving with the times’ is more important than encouraging priestly vocations.

It looks like there may be a misunderstanding here. Do you believe you are not able to ‘serve’ Christ without serving at the altar? Or that the altar service is ‘better’ or the only service that matters? Quite the contrary, the laity are called to participate in the congregation, a participation which is genuine and engaged. Part of the joy of Christ’s message was that anyone could serve him and love him, not matter what your sex or state in life. If you believe that you would not be serving Christ (or serve him ‘as much’) if you stopped serving at the altar, I think you may be confused about something.

PS - Perhaps you do not agree to my statement that a boy-only policy encourages vocations. Here is my argument in a nut-shell:

• Allowing both boys and girls reduces serving to a functional activity. “We need help to do this thing.” Or “We need people to do this thing.”
• A boys-only policy ties serving to the all-male priesthood therefore adding a vocational element to the function of serving.

NB - The Church intends that no women are in the sanctuary when she states that the ideal is to have instituted ministers who must be men (Ministeria Quaedam).

dear cue,

There is no agenda, and i certainly do not object; i greatly encourage and pray for vocations - we need more priests, especially in my own country. We are not as fortunate as those of you in the States, who appear to have an abundance of seminaries. You are blessed.
Im sorry about my comment about ‘moving with the times’, and i should have expected such a response, but you are right - encouraging vocations is more important than trends. But this issue is not about vocations, is it, although it keeps coming back to that.

I know that i serve Christ in everything i do, whether at home at work or anywhere else, and i’m not saying that serving Him at the altar is somehow ‘more important’. I never said i believe i would not be serving Him if i stopped being an altar server - i am not confused in my service to Our Lord.

A boys only policy may well tie serving to the priesthood, but being an altar server is still a functional activity too.The function of altar boys is to serve at the altar and and with Gods Grace, go on to become good and holy priests.

I must sound like a right old battle-axe - i’m not, believe me

BTW
Ministeria Quaedam was written 20 years before the decission to permit female altar servers was given. So i guess the Church in her wisdom, occasionally moves with the times

God bless you in your own vocation
Suze

 

[cue]

Of course a pastors right to choose (etc) is not irrelevant, but that is not what i meant. Besides, what about the many pastors who choose, with their bishops permission, to have female servers? By the same token their choice is not irrelevant either. Or would you disagree?

I was not saying that a pastor’s right to choose was not irrevelant. I was saying that while the fact that serving for girls is a ‘dead end’ may seem irrevelant to you, it is not irrevelant for a pastor who is entrusted with souls. He is to see the liturgical functions are carried out (functional) but also that he is leading souls to Christ (vocational).

No one is saying this is an absolute right, and nothing is set in stone, but if the Church in her wisdom, has seen fit to allow this permission to be granted through her bishops, who am i to argue?

I am not denying the bishop’s ability to grant permission; the Church is perfectly able to grant such permission. However, on the part of pastors, our current situation demands they not submit to the culture (who tells us this is discrimination against women) and take advantage of this permission. Rather, they should seize this opportunity as a means to encourage priestly vocations and build up the kingodm of God and as a means to teach his people to reject the lies of the culture.

You seem to imply that my argument against female servers is an argument against the will of the Church. If you believe that the Church, by allowing this permission to be granted, is supporting the idea of regular female ‘ministers’ at the altar, you are mistaken, as is seen in several previous posts quoting the pertaining documents. Yes, the Church allows it, but places before us the ideal (all-male ministers) which is different.

zuzu,
I have just read your most recent post.

1. What do you mean by moving with the times ?
2. Ministeria Quaedam is still force, despite how old it is. We still profess the creed statement of a council 1700 years old (Nicene Creed) (Talk about old-fashioned )
3. I keep bringing vocations up because it* is* an issue here. Deny it if you like, but this choice of a pastor has ‘vocational’ effects.

Also, I have asked what good allowing female servers does? Until now you have not answered it. What would your answer be?

 

[zuzu]

I was not saying that a pastor’s right to choose was not irrevelant. I was saying that while the fact that serving for girls is a ‘dead end’ may seem irrevelant to you, it is not irrevelant for a pastor who is entrusted with souls. He is to see the liturgical functions are carried out (functional) but also that he is leading souls to Christ (vocational).

I am not denying the bishop’s ability to grant permission; the Church is perfectly able to grant such permission. However, on the part of pastors, our current situation demands they not submit to the culture (who tells us this is discrimination against women) and take advantage of this permission. Rather, they should seize this opportunity as a means to encourage priestly vocations and build up the kingodm of God and as a means to teach his people to reject the lies of the culture.

You seem to imply that my argument against female servers is an argument against the will of the Church. If you believe that the Church, by allowing this permission to be granted, is supporting the idea of regular female ‘ministers’ at the altar, you are mistaken, as is seen in several previous posts quoting the pertaining documents. Yes, the Church allows it, but places before us the ideal (all-male ministers) which is different.

zuzu,
I have just read your most recent post.

1. What do you mean by moving with the times ?
2. Ministeria Quaedam is still force, despite how old it is. We still profess the creed statement of a council 1700 years old (Nicene Creed) (Talk about old-fashioned )
3. I keep bringing vocations up because it* is* an issue here. Deny it if you like, but this choice of a pastor has ‘vocational’ effects.

Also, I have asked what good allowing female servers does? Until now you have not answered it. What would your answer be?

I’m not implying anything of the sort.
and
I answered you other question in an earlier post.
Not meaning to be snippy here, but where i live it’s 2.00am and i’m getting v. tired.
Girls aren’t meant to think - didn’t you know that

I think we can go round and round in ever decreasing circles with this topic. I have enjoyed your ‘company’, but in all humility, i am going to call it a day.
I wish you well in your studies, and may Almighty God bless you in all you do.

Pray for me
Good night

suze

 

[Lux_et_veritas]

(Please Note: This uploaded content is no longer available.)
Good Friday 2006 at Assumption Grotto

Yeah. Pastors can use only boys.

In parishes where there are male-only altar server programs, I think you will find there are more serving, and serving longer. Parishes with all male altar boy programs, I believe, are producing more vocations - male and female, than those with mixed programs.

This year alone, one young woman left for a Carmelite community out west, another has been accepted at St. John Cantius in Chicago and will be leaving in June, and a third is at St. John Vianney Seminary in St. Paul, MN (via the Archdiocese of Detroit). This says nothing of those visibly in the pipeline, but too young. And, the many who are discerning of varying ages - teen and adult.

I don’t think it is a cause and effect of the program itself though. Rather, it is the overall package. It’s cultural. Parishes that have all male altar server programs, I believe are generally open to life - meaning, there are many very young families. I see young people in my parish marrying young, and having kids - in abundance - at young ages. Parents are not only open to their children exploring religious life, but make sure they are comfortable with it, and create an environment where such things are welcome.

Also, I know for certain that opening the doors to girls will scatter the boys. This is their thing and they take great pride in all that they do. The girls in the parish don’t feel the need to be “doing” sanctuary activities from all I’ve observed. Rather, they are satisfied with prayer, with choir, with serving in many other ways. It is not beneath them to follow the example of Mary. Then again, that is probably why so many tried to shelf the Blessed Mother - she wasn’t bent on trying to do everythign the boys could do.

 

[dylanschrader]

I think it’s important to keep in mind for our discussion that females’ serving and males’ serving is not permitted in the same sense. Both may be “permitted,” but this permission is different.

In the case of males this permission is given in Canon 230.2 of the 1983 Code of Canon Law. This is where it states that lay people are permitted to assist at the altar in the absence of, e.g., an instituted acolyte or a sufficient number of instituted acolytes.

In the case of females, there is a “chain of permission.” In 1994, Canon 230.2 was interpreted to mean that individual bishops could permit female altar servers along with male altar servers. However, later communications from the Congregation for Divine Worship also maintain that bishops cannot require female servers. What this translates into is the following “chain of permission”: Canon Law permits a bishop to permit pastors to permit female altar servers.

Female altar servers, where they are permitted, are permitted much more contingently than male altar servers.

 

[anamchara]

Our parish has both male and female servers. i see nothing wrong with the female server, my little daughter wants to be one when she is old enough and i’ll support her as well.

thanks for posting this Micheal. I recently trained new altar servers and I trained both and was happy to do this. They are all great kids.

I had a mother tell me that when she was a young girl about the age of 12yrs it had come down that girls were finally allowed to serve, so her priest allowed it but when people saw her and few other girls up there they walked out. It broke her heart in two and it’s something that has stayed with her for a long time. Can you imagine doing this to children?

Now she has daughters and is excited about them serving. I’m glad we live in a time that allows for both.

 

[anamchara]

Also, I know for certain that opening the doors to girls will scatter the boys. This is their thing and they take great pride in all that they do. The girls in the parish don’t feel the need to be “doing” sanctuary activities from all I’ve observed. Rather, they are satisfied with prayer, with choir, with serving in many other ways. It is not beneath them to follow the example of Mary. Then again, that is probably why so many tried to shelf the Blessed Mother - she wasn’t bent on trying to do everythign the boys could do.

I know it is difficult not to project one’s own motivations or perceptions upon others but I don’t think girls are “trying” to do what boys are doing. Do all girls that play soft ball do so because they want to do what the boys are doing? Does Danica Patrick race cars to be like boys? I don’t think so. I really believe she simply likes speed and loves cars. It is a bit insulting to assume that every time a girl wants to do something she is doing so because the boys are doing it. Surely girls can have other, less petty motivations.

I have three daughters with minds of their own. If they are called to serve the Lord on the altar then I will give thanks to God and not stand in their way.

How do you know for certain it will scatter the boys? All of them? I don’t think you meant all of them. Are they all so immature that if so much as one girl gets her cuties on their cassocks, these boys will think it beneath them to serve God again? How sad for them.

Sorry if that sounds snippy, I’m just getting tired of this same old argument.

 

[Michael038]

From a pastoral perspective, two issues arise.

1. For many priests, serving Mass was pivotal in discerning their call to the priesthood. Every time a girl servers, she is displacing a boy (or the possibly of a boy serving). Particularly today, a pastor must do all he can to foster vocations. This may seem like such a small detail, but to a boy deciding what to do with his life, it is a priceless experience.
2. The feminization of the liturgy and Catholicism. We can see that, in many places, mostly women have stepped up to these ministries and the result is that the younger generation has come to believe that church is for women, not men. Allowing girls to serve destroys a reason for boys to serve. It becomes a normal activity, rather than a special opportunity that they are uniquely invited to seize.

While female altar servers are allowed, the pastoral situation demands that they not be employed. Allowing girls to serve discourages boys to serve and therefore enacts, on the parish level, a vocational suicide. In a world that is shouting its loudest to tell them that priesthood is worthless, their one safe-haven, the Church, needs to provide a place that recognizes and encourages young men to serve at her altars as priests. Of course, God can overcome the obstacles that the feminists, etc. would like to place in the way and he reach the heart of a young man. Why don’t we try to help him out?

God Loves Men and Women the same. There is nothing wrong with female servers imo. They are helping the parish out. Our Parish has boys and girls serving together. God almighty will call those to the priesthood he wishes to call, he doesnt need them all to be altarboys. He can reach any heart anywhere at anytime. There doesnt need to be an easier way for him to get through to somebody. At the same time a girl server may be more inclined to become a nun, or get involved in the christian mothers ect. We should encourage equal participation in the serving at the Mass.

 

[Paed]

My best friend lives in Lincoln, NE

His parish of 600 families has 125 Altar BOYS. They wear cassocks and surplices. Of the 125 50 of them are HS age. They ahve 5 masses on the weekends and use 4-6 altar boys at each mass. His parish has puts out about 1 Seminarian every 3-4 years.

It must just be a coincidence that in the fact that they have Males only.

My mothers parish of 300 familes has 16 servers two of which are 5th grade boys the rest are girls. SInce Vatican II the parish has not produced a Single seminarian or religious sister.

 

[MusicMan]

My best friend lives in Lincoln, NE

His parish of 600 families has 125 Altar BOYS. They wear cassocks and surplices. Of the 125 50 of them are HS age. They ahve 5 masses on the weekends and use 4-6 altar boys at each mass. His parish has puts out about 1 Seminarian every 3-4 years.

It must just be a coincidence that in the fact that they have Males only.

My mothers parish of 300 familes has 16 servers two of which are 5th grade boys the rest are girls. SInce Vatican II the parish has not produced a Single seminarian or religious sister.

The argument you present is that Vatican II is at fault for the lack of clergy and religious being produced by your Mother’s parish, not that the allowance of female servers is the cause.

I don’t think either one of these things is in-and-of-itself the cause, rather these are all symptoms of a greater problem within the Church.