Do Polygamists go to hell?

[HashemEchad]

Natural Law, written on the heart or no, it is obvious that the ban on polygamy is not universal across the three religions that follow the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Islam allows up to at least four wives if the husband can afford their upkeep. Some Jews from Islamic countries are still polygamous. One of the two main branches of Judaism allowed polygamy up to about the end of the first millinium. The other never did ban it. When Jews from Muslim areas have more than one wife migrate to Israel the government turns a blind eye. Based on the Old Testament their are groups in Israel agitating for the country to return to this practice of their biblical forefathers. There are sources for all this info on the internet. Just use Google.

I am not in favor of polygamy. One wife at a time is enough. Indeed I accept and believe that Jesus forbade it, but not every conscientious person in this world would agree that it is a serious sin if any sin at all.

As for the practice of suicide bombing being murder. I am sure that in the mind of the bomber it is no more murder than it would be for one of us to shoot and kill someone attacking us. Before we condemn whole groups of people to hell we need to step out of our mid-american frame of reference. Of course it doesn’t change the morality of the act, but it does impact the level of guilt. If we don’t believe this, why do we prattle about the three things necessary for one to commit a mortal sin…

Rabbenu Gershom banned polygamy for Ashkenazic Jews only (Jews in Western and Eastern Europe).

Sephardic Jews (from Spain, Turkey, Italy, Arab countries, etc) were allowed to continue being polygamous.

The reason why Rabbenu Gershom banned polygamy (in the 10th century) for Ashkenazic Jews, was because he feared antisemitism from Christians in Europe if Jews were to continue being allowed to be polygamous. The ban was only supposed to last for 500 years, but by that time, most Ashkenazic Jews were used to the idea, so it stuck.

What I find interesting is the the REASONS WHY both Orthodox Judaism in the west, and the official Mormon church banned polygamy (in 1890, so Utah could enter the Union) in the first place, was NOT for truly spiritual reasons, but for political/social reasons.

 

[bilop]

Natural Law, written on the heart or no, it is obvious that the ban on polygamy is not universal across the three religions that follow the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. Islam allows up to at least four wives if the husband can afford their upkeep. Some Jews from Islamic countries are still polygamous. One of the two main branches of Judaism allowed polygamy up to about the end of the first millinium. The other never did ban it. When Jews from Muslim areas have more than one wife migrate to Israel the government turns a blind eye. Based on the Old Testament their are groups in Israel agitating for the country to return to this practice of their biblical forefathers. There are sources for all this info on the internet. Just use Google.

I am not in favor of polygamy. One wife at a time is enough. Indeed I accept and believe that Jesus forbade it, but not every conscientious person in this world would agree that it is a serious sin if any sin at all.

As for the practice of suicide bombing being murder. I am sure that in the mind of the bomber it is no more murder than it would be for one of us to shoot and kill someone attacking us. Before we condemn whole groups of people to hell we need to step out of our mid-american frame of reference. Of course it doesn’t change the morality of the act, but it does impact the level of guilt. If we don’t believe this, why do we prattle about the three things necessary for one to commit a mortal sin…

I’m sorry, but as a Catholic I don’t care one whit about the moral codes of Islam and Judaism.

St. John, 14:6

I am the way, and the truth, and the life. No man cometh to the Father, but by me.

There is no salvation except through Christ. Following a moral code that is not in accord with Christ will lead no where but to hell.
There is no parallel route to heaven for Jews or Moslems. If they are saved it will be through Christ. To believe otherwise is to succomb to relavitism and indifferentism.

The natural law is binding on all men. If the suicide bombers are blameless, so are Hitler and Stalin and every sociopath who believes they know who deserves to live.

God Bless

 

[MonkeyFriend]

Monkey Friend learn something new from HashemAchad.

 

[BlueRubies]

With all this talk of the Mormon Texas compound in the news and what they did to those innocent children. What does the Catholic church say about polygmy and how do these people say they are Christians if they are treating God’s children the way they are?

It’s highly disturbing details in the news.

Thanks.

The church is against ploygmy. I don’t know if they go to hell or not - on one hand they are doing wrong, but also they kind of have twisted thinking and maybe “don’t know any better”? But, on the other hand, Christians (Catholics included) that are married (and maybe have children) and decide they want a divorce and are granted on some stupid technicality the right to have an “annulment” and remarry is just as bad and the same thing, to a lesser degree of course. I mean, then you can have more than one spouse (although not at the same time)? I just think it’s overused and unfair in a lot of the cases - but that’s kind of another topic I guess, so I’ll shut up about it now .

But here is my question as the thought has passed through my brain, these girls are so young that are being married off, and although our culture is against that (I am against it too), back in biblical times that was how it was - the “women” were married off at puberty to older men. This is a different situation granted because of the polygmy, but say that instead of having multiple wives, these older men at the compound had only 1 wife whom he married at the time she his puberty - say age 13. I mean, how can we accept this? But how could we not when this is how things “were” at Jesus’ time? Mary was so young. Yes I know that she was Jesus’ mother, but she was without sin and I doubt waiting until she was 20 would have made her corrupt (if she’s pure she’s pure), so there is something there about being a young mother (and obviously this applied to all the other girls/women at that time too - she was not the only pregnant teen back then). Again, not that I agree with that - I think it’s sick for a 30-40 year old man to marry and impregnant at 12, 13, or 14 year old. But, wasn’t that how it was in biblical times?

Also, there is polygmy in the bible - I can’t sometimes wrap my mind around how major biblical figures had multiple wives. I’ve heard the argument that it was okay because they were chosen by God. Doesn’t that mean that she should have lived in more stricter accordance to God’s word then? It’s all very confusing sometimes, lol

 

[HashemEchad]

I’ll tell you what I’ve read about the history of polygyny.

The ancient (pagan) Romans were strong endorsers of monogamy. The Roman Catholic church evidently got their opposition to polygamy from them (just as they got many other things, such as the priest’s robes being copied from Roman togas.)

I’ve read some sources that say that the Catholic church banned polygamy stemming from their distaste for too much sexual activity (esp. any that was not intended to bring about procreation all the time.)

In turn, Rabbenu Gershom banned polygamy for Western European Jews so as to prevent any possible antisemitism by jealous Christians who might see Jews still having plural wives when they no longer could.

I just did a quick search to find the original articles I had read, but found this one, which says almost the same:

patriarchywebsite.com/monogamy/mono-history.htm#THE%20ROMAN%20EMPIRE%20AND%20THE%20ROMAN%20CHURCH

 

[Mystic_of_God]

Monkey Friend confused. Where polygamy condemned in Bible? God condemn sexual sin but Abraham and Moses polygamists and God ok with them. Adulterers stoned but many wives no punishment.

I’m Catholic, this is what Catholics believe. If they don’t, I generally assume that they are as Catholic as JFK, or the Mafia.

 

[rwoehmke]

I’m sorry, but as a Catholic I don’t care one whit about the moral codes of Islam and Judaism.

There is no parallel route to heaven for Jews or Moslems. If they are saved it will be through Christ. To believe otherwise is to succomb to relavitism and indifferentism.

The natural law is binding on all men. If the suicide bombers are blameless, so are Hitler and Stalin and every sociopath who believes they know who deserves to live.

God Bless

Ah yes my friend, but to be mortally sinful for those individuals they must be know the natural law. The word is that they “can” know the natural law, but do they? In such situations, I cannot feature that God punishes the ignorant. As for Jews and Muslims being saved, the last two Popes and the CCC say that even not knowing Jesus in a personal way they can still be saved through his redeeming grace. It’s how those older pronouncements are being interpreted. The Church has the last word on the Scriptures and so it is for the documents the Church has issued after the Scriptures were written.

To be more comfortable when you get to heaven, don’t look over “the wall.”

 

[seekerz]

I did some reading once of testimony given to congress regarding polygamy in the LDS (guess it was sometime in the 1800’s; can’t pull up the article right now), but the lives described by some of these women is horrific. Even if one were to accept that polygamy is practiced because these people believe that’s what the Bible teaches, this can in no way account for the sick practices described by some of those women.

Basically they were saying that some were conned into marriage or in the case of one couple, conned into conversion, with no forewarning of the expectation of polygamy. Once they got to “Zion”, there was no escape from the practice: men could be financially ruined and women physically harmed or separated from their children if they refused to obey. Older wives would encourage their husbands to take additional wives if they felt threatened by his relationship with any of the junior wives (apparently so his favorite, could learn what it felt like to be usurped). I could give more examples, but the whole thing was just so sick.

That was then, but it seems like the more I hear of this FLDS, the more similarity with those long ago stories. The only way I could see human beings freely accepting such warped theology is through systematic brainswashing and force.

It’s all about sex and reproduction being used as the ultimate weapon of mind control. Men have had their families stripped from them for dissent with church authorities. Girls reportedly are assigned as child brides to grandfather figures, while young men are made to wait to marry or are even thrown out (like getting rid of the competition). Some degree of sexual predatory behavior by young men on young girls (outside the bounds of their so-called marriage) is said to be tolerated or ignored.

Even if someone believes polygamy to be biblical, this kind of life just seems to be a highly elaborate disguise for the practice of sexual deviancy. The question is, how to expose it for the criminal behavior that it is, without infringing on religious freedom?

 

[HashemEchad]

I’m sorry, but as a Catholic I don’t care one whit about the moral codes of Islam and Judaism.

St. John, 14:6

There is no salvation except through Christ. Following a moral code that is not in accord with Christ will lead no where but to hell.
There is no parallel route to heaven for Jews or Moslems. If they are saved it will be through Christ. To believe otherwise is to succomb to relavitism and indifferentism.

The natural law is binding on all men. If the suicide bombers are blameless, so are Hitler and Stalin and every sociopath who believes they know who deserves to live.

God Bless

Christianity would not exist if not for its mother religion, Judaism. So to say you don’t care what Judaism thinks, does that mean we can have our Bible (your “Old” Testament) back?

 

[Ryan29]

My opinion on the matter after some careful thought I think these people will live and die and get buried in the ground, if that’s hell then most people not cremated are in hell. :knight1:

 

[Hastrman]

Christianity would not exist if not for its mother religion, Judaism. So to say you don’t care what Judaism thinks, does that mean we can have our Bible (your “Old” Testament) back?

Um, our religion changed.

Or did you notice we don’t call ourselves Jews?

By the way, Judaism is our elder brother, not our mother–we share the same Father.

And Christianity was monogamous in the Greek, Mesopotamian, and Egyptian churches too, before Rome, and they were all polygamists (only occasionally in the case of the Greeks). There are theological reasons for our monogamy, and I’ll wager Rabbi Gershom’s monogamy, too.

Here’s a hint: don’t offer opinions on topics you don’t know a thing about.

 

[deb1]

I’ve read some sources that say that the Catholic church banned polygamy stemming from their distaste for too much sexual activity (esp. any that was not intended to bring about procreation all the time.)

If you are going to quote sources please link to them. I would imagine that any source that states that the Catholic Church banned polygamy because it has a distaste for sexual activity is probably not very friendly to Catholics.

 

[deb1]

At least polygamy as practiced by Muslims has some sort of ideal that the followers are supposed to adhere. So a Muslim husband is allowed only four wives and must support them all equally. He isn’t supposed to treat any of them differently.

The Mormon polygamists appear to have had no such ideal to guide their actions. The men married women they couldn’t financially support-hence many were supposedly on welfare- and they could have as many wives as they wished, plus they could play favorite. There are no cultural barriers on how these men treat their wives.

I saw a documentary once on women who lived in a Mormon polygamist marriage. The women talked about their lives and I was struck by how many said that they had to constantly keep tight control of their emotions. But they all thought that they were doing God’s will. It was very sad.

I’ve known friends who have divorced because they fell out of love. Then they remarry once or twice more. If their marriages aren’t annuled by the Church, aren’t they practicing a type of polygamy?

 

[HashemEchad]

Um, our religion changed.

Or did you notice we don’t call ourselves Jews?

By the way, Judaism is our elder brother, not our mother–we share the same Father.

And Christianity was monogamous in the Greek, Mesopotamian, and Egyptian churches too, before Rome, and they were all polygamists (only occasionally in the case of the Greeks). There are theological reasons for our monogamy, and I’ll wager Rabbi Gershom’s monogamy, too.

Here’s a hint: don’t offer opinions on topics you don’t know a thing about.

I am very well versed in this subject, thankyouverymuch…even if what I know doesn’t fit with what you know.

And yes, I know Christianity changed…it changed VERY much. What I was saying is if you don’t care what the “Old Testament” says, why not give it back to us, the Jews, the rightful caretakers of it?

I mean, if you’re not using it anyway…

 

[bilop]

Ah yes my friend, but to be mortally sinful for those individuals they must be know the natural law. The word is that they “can” know the natural law, but do they? In such situations, I cannot feature that God punishes the ignorant. As for Jews and Muslims being saved, the last two Popes and the CCC say that even not knowing Jesus in a personal way they can still be saved through his redeeming grace. It’s how those older pronouncements are being interpreted. The Church has the last word on the Scriptures and so it is for the documents the Church has issued after the Scriptures were written.

To be more comfortable when you get to heaven, don’t look over “the wall.”

I disagree. From the Old Catholic Encyclopedia:

IV. OUR KNOWLEDGE OF THE LAW
Founded in our nature and revealed to us by our reason, the moral law is known to us in the measure that reason brings a knowledge of it home to our understanding. The question arises: How far can man be ignorant of the natural law, which, as St. Paul says, is written in the human heart (Romans 2:14)? The general teaching of theologians is that the supreme and primary principles are necessarily known to every one having the actual use of reason. These principles are really reducible to the primary principle which is expressed by St. Thomas in the form: “Do good and avoid evil”. Wherever we find man we find him with a moral code, which is founded on the first principle that good is to be done and evil avoided. When we pass from the universal to more particular conclusions, the case is different. Some follow immediately from the primary, and are so self-evident that they are reached without any complex course of reasoning. Such are, for example: “Do not commit adultery”; “Honour your parents”. No person whose reason and moral nature is ever so little developed can remain in ignorance of such precepts except through his own fault. Another class of conclusions comprises those which are reached only by a more or less complex course of reasoning. These may remain unknown to, or be misinterpreted even by persons whose intellectual development is considerable. To reach these more remote precepts, many facts and minor conclusions must be correctly appreciated, and, in estimating their value, a person may easily err, and consequently, without moral fault, come to a false conclusion.

newadvent.org/cathen/09076a.htm

No one who has right reason is ignorant of the natural law. If non-Christians are to be saved by invincible ignorance of Christ, they need to follow the natural law. Polygamy is adultery and therefore against the natural law.

God Bless

 

[deb1]

I am very well versed in this subject, thankyouverymuch…even if what I know doesn’t fit with what you know.

And yes, I know Christianity changed…it changed VERY much. What I was saying is if you don’t care what the “Old Testament” says, why not give it back to us, the Jews, the rightful caretakers of it?

I mean, if you’re not using it anyway…

I found your comments about Jewish practices to be interesting but I fail to understand how Christians took the Torah from Jewish people unless we are preventing Jewish people from reading it and practicing their own religion.

 

[bilop]

Christianity would not exist if not for its mother religion, Judaism. So to say you don’t care what Judaism thinks, does that mean we can have our Bible (your “Old” Testament) back?

I said I don’t care about the moral code of Judaism. It was superceded for Jews by the coming of Christ, and it was never binding on Gentiles. Christians don’t keep Kosher or follow any other Jewish laws.

Judaism is important for the Prophesies fortelling Christ. God could have chosen to reveal Christ through another religion, and it wouldn’t have made a difference. Their were Monotheistic theologies developing in the Greek, Roman and Persian worlds around the same time.

The importance of Judaism was in preparing the way for Christ. After his coming, its relevance, as a modern religion, ceased for Christians. This is symbolized in the Gospels by the tearing of the Temple veil.

God Bless

 

[HashemEchad]

I found your comments about Jewish practices to be interesting but I fail to understand how Christians took the Torah from Jewish people unless we are preventing Jewish people from reading it and practicing their own religion.

Its just that its very insulting to Jews for Christians to have “borrowed” our Bible, changed the interpretations to fit their new beliefs, and then hit us over the head with our own Bible (not saying YOU are doing it, but many Christians have and do), as if we cannot understand our own Scriptures.
It would be akin to a new group “borrowing” the Catholic Bible, distorting the meaning of it, and then accusing Catholics of not knowing their own Scriptures.

 

[bilop]

It would be akin to a new group “borrowing” the Catholic Bible, distorting the meaning of it, and then accusing Catholics of not knowing their own Scriptures.

You mean like every Protestant group since the Hussites?

 

[HashemEchad]

You mean like every Protestant group since the Hussites?

Yes. So you know what it feels like!