Do prayer work if in Mortal Sin?

[ready]

You can pray for others while in a state of mortal sin and God will hear your prayers and will answer them (Ask and you shall receive.), but you will gain no merit at all for yourself by means of the prayer. God bless you.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

You can pray for others while in a state of mortal sin and God will hear your prayers and will answer them (Ask and you shall receive.), but you will gain no merit at all for yourself by means of the prayer. God bless you.

What precise types of prayers do and do not work?

Apparently there is some precise, technical term for this word “merit” that differs from popular usage as “having value” that most of us who speak English understand.

Because the assertion that prayer has “no value” under ANY circumstances is patently absurd.

 

[Sirach2]

What precise types of prayers do and do not work?

Apparently there is some precise, technical term for this word “merit” that differs from popular usage as “having value” that most of us who speak English understand.

Because the assertion that prayer has “no value” under ANY circumstances is patently absurd.

This is a rather lengthy read, so I suggest you scroll down to “Conditions of Merit.” It states:

The necessity of the third condition, i.e., of the influence of actual grace, is clear from the fact that every act meriting heaven must evidently be supernatural just as heaven itself is supernatural, and that consequently it cannot be performed without the help of prevenient and assisting grace, which is necessary even for the just.

In the parable of the vine Christ expressly declares the “abiding in him” a necessary condition for “bearing fruit”: “He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit” (John 15:5); and this constant union with Christ is effected only by sanctifying grace.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

This is a rather lengthy read, so I suggest you scroll down to “Conditions of Merit.” It states:

The necessity of the third condition, i.e., of the influence of actual grace, is clear from the fact that every act meriting heaven must evidently be supernatural just as heaven itself is supernatural, and that consequently it cannot be performed without the help of prevenient and assisting grace, which is necessary even for the just.

In the parable of the vine Christ expressly declares the “abiding in him” a necessary condition for “bearing fruit”: “He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same beareth much fruit” (John 15:5); and this constant union with Christ is effected only by sanctifying grace.

Thank you for directly addressing my concern and providing that background information.

It is a lengthy read, and maybe I’ll look into it more, but I think my hunch was clear. This “merit” is a very technical thing so throwing it around in a discussion like we understand it, and drawing conclusions about the efficacy or value or whatever of prayer, can lead to the wrong impressions.

But what I’m saying, is that no matter the state a soul is in, if that soul (excepting those who have already been permanently damned or whatever) has a desire to reach out to the Lord and wants to pray, I don’t see how any person using any kind of reasoning can come to the conclusion that such prayer might as well not be offered because it isn’t doing any good.

No amount of razzle-dazzle from some legalistic source, is going to get between me and the God I believe in. If He can’t hear me when I’m down, because the situation falls into some theological formula, then He’s not very omniscient IMO and is probably an idol as far as my own “mental immune system” can figure out.

 

[Sirach2]

But what I’m saying, is that no matter the state a soul is in, if that soul (excepting those who have already been permanently damned or whatever) has a desire to reach out to the Lord and wants to pray, I don’t see how any person using any kind of reasoning can come to the conclusion that such prayer might as well not be offered because it isn’t doing any good.

I agree that all prayers are heard by our loving God, but to obtain supernatural merit, as the article explained, one needs to be in a state of grace. I hope nobody thinks that “because I am not in the state of grace, therefore, I cannot pray” … because God’s actual grace is always present prompting the person to pray in the first place.

 

[ready]

I agree that all prayers are heard by our loving God, but to obtain supernatural merit, as the article explained, one needs to be in a state of grace. I hope nobody thinks that “because I am not in the state of grace, therefore, I cannot pray” … because God’s actual grace is always present prompting the person to pray in the first place.

 

[Techno2000]

"I tell you that in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.

It seems to me that God would want to hear the prayers from a Mortal sinner more than anything else.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

"I tell you that in the same way, there will be more joy in heaven over one sinner who repents than over ninety-nine righteous persons who need no repentance.

It seems to me that God would want to hear the prayers from a Mortal sinner more than anything else.

Yes. And when I hear statements that seem to indicate otherwise to the average human being without degrees in theology and philosophy, I can’t fail to call Nonsense on it.

I do appreciate Sirach2 and ready and others for explaining all this, but on a “spirituality” forum if somebody says, “will it do me any good to pray when in the state I am in?” I cannot accept any reply that downplays the value of prayer.

On an “apologetics” forum section, go ahead and argue technicalities. But let me make my personal, untrained, reactionary, “in my heart” reply to the OP question, and please nobody say I’m wrong about the following or I will go through the entire thing again.

To the question “Do prayers work if in Mortal Sin?”

I say, “when in Mortal Sin, that is the time you need more than any other time to pray.”

Then again, if I want to pray then maybe I’m not in a “state of mortal sin” in my heart, although I may very well be in the “Catholic Twilight Zone,” if I haven’t been to confession. So I suppose that’s another out, is to say that if I have the desire to pray then I’m not really in the condition of separation from God. But that raises the question, if I’m not really separated, why do I have to come back? Regarding that theological rabbit hole, I promise I will chase every single false path if I have to, in order to find and reassure one person who wishes to pray but doesn’t because somehow they have been given the impression it won’t help them.

 

[Sarcelle]

I agree that all prayers are heard by our loving God, but to obtain supernatural merit, as the article explained, one needs to be in a state of grace. I hope nobody thinks that “because I am not in the state of grace, therefore, I cannot pray” … because God’s actual grace is always present prompting the person to pray in the first place.

Can you please define supernatural merit?

 

[Sirach2]

Can you please define supernatural merit?

This is my layman’s version, but the article I linked to from Catholic Encyclopedia went into much more detail. I believe that when we are in the state of mortal sin, all of our good works which normally may apply against time spent in purgatory, and for which God rewards us, are not capable of obtaining eternal merit for us. Some of the saints have said that God blesses the soul with a greater degree of glory whenever the person performs good works in accord with God’s will, while in the state of grace. St. Teresa of Avila said that for the additional degree of glory in heaven, she would sacrifice much to obtain it. Apparently, this was revealed to her in a vision. I hope this helps.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

So all of this is about our Purgatory time? That explains it; this is something that I don’t even consider important, for myself.

I’ve decided some time back that the “time” I spend in Purgatory is something I will cherish and will be of great value. I have no feeling that I need to control or ask others to help God, do whatever He needs to do with me. Others are welcome to pray that my “time may be reduced” if it gives you the sense of performing an act of mercy.

I’ve pretty much done Purgatory, in the form of “contemplative purgation” of the Dark Night, a phenomenon St. John of the Cross, only recently promoted to “Doctor of the Church” less than 100 years ago, famously wrote about and in much detail, as he was an expert spiritual director.

I’m not afraid of it anymore. I’m not concerned with “after I die” because if I live my life taking Jesus’s parents’ advice “Listen to Him” and “Do what He tells you” (and no that does not include apparitions for me) then I’ve done the best I can. If Jesus cannot make the case for me, then I accept that I will go to hell; there is nothing I could have done to prevent it and surely not by living in fear would that have helped. I do not need either fear of pain or promise of luxury to be the lover, made in the image of God, that I am.

So that maybe makes me an “atypical Catholic” for not living in fear of my afterlife. I live instead, in joy and gratitude for each breath I take.

MS

 

[Sirach2]

To the question “Do prayers work if in Mortal Sin?”

Yes, of course. But the grace that is bestowed in prayer is called “actual grace” as opposed to “supernatural grace.” Actual graces are not to be pooh-poohed as though they are not beneficial to us, for they certainly are.

Here is how the CCC defines this:

**2000 **Sanctifying grace is an habitual gift, a stable and supernatural disposition that perfects the soul itself to enable it to live with God, to act by his love. Habitual grace, the permanent disposition to live and act in keeping with God’s call, is distinguished from actual graces which refer to God’s interventions, whether at the beginning of conversion or in the course of the work of sanctification.

Edit: I just noticed your post while I was writing this one. I hope you don’t think that merit is ONLY for a shortened time in purgatory, although that may be part of it. One of the conditions to obtain a plenary indulgence, is that we be in the state of grace, otherwise, it cannot be obtained. Plenaries remove ALL temporal punishment.

However, the merit, as I understand St. Teresa, is the just reward of our good deeds, as described in various scriptures.

 

[Techno2000]

This is my layman’s version, but the article I linked to from Catholic Encyclopedia went into much more detail. I believe that when we are in the state of mortal sin, all of our good works which normally may apply against time spent in purgatory, and for which God rewards us, are not capable of obtaining eternal merit for us. Some of the saints have said that God blesses the soul with a greater degree of glory whenever the person performs good works in accord with God’s will, while in the state of grace. St. Teresa of Avila said that for the additional degree of glory in heaven, she would sacrifice much to obtain it. Apparently, this was revealed to her in a vision. I hope this helps.

Out of all the Private Revelation I have read, I have never read from Jesus or Mary that Mortal sin makes prayer less effective that venial sin, if this was the case Mary would have said so with her request for people to say the Rosary.

 

[Sirach2]

I think it’s time for me to leave this discussion. I have done my best to explain - beyond this, it is up to the reader to do his homework.

 

[Techno2000]

I think it’s time for me to leave this discussion. I have done my best to explain - beyond this, it is up to the reader to do his homework.

Lets just say that God works with us at whatever Spiritual level we are on.

 

[Dodge_pursuit]

I love the Lord, for he heard my voice;
he heard my cry for mercy.
Because he turned his ear to me,
I will call on him as long as I live.

(Psalm 116)

Bible=good.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

I think it’s time for me to leave this discussion. I have done my best to explain - beyond this, it is up to the reader to do his homework.

Thank you for your information. I see there is a lot to it, but at this point the question is not important to me. I am not influenced by this as far as I can tell, and others have their opinions.

I might look more into the information you’ve given, if I get interested in the question again.

It’s just when I hear someone telling my homies that “prayer won’t help” or anything that could be construed as that, it triggers me.

So it’s back to me. Ego problem.

Thank you all for indulging my rants. I hope you found some value.

 

[ready]

What precise types of prayers do and do not work?

Apparently there is some precise, technical term for this word “merit” that differs from popular usage as “having value” that most of us who speak English understand.

Because the assertion that prayer has “no value” under ANY circumstances is patently absurd.

I have read that when one is in a state of mortal sin the type of prayers that work (for oneself) are prayers for one’s conversion made with a contrite heart: and prayers for others when we are contrite would work too because Jesus tells us that if we ask we shall receive. What Jesus says means that all the prayers we make for ourselves and for others will be answered, so long as we ask with the right dispositions: humility, confidence, perseverance and contrition. Prayers that don’t work are prayers we make with the wrong dispositions: pride, no confidence, etc… God bless you.

 

[Mystical_Seeker]

What Jesus says means that all the prayers we make for ourselves and for others will be answered, so long as we ask with the right dispositions: humility, confidence, perseverance and contrition. Prayers that don’t work are prayers we make with the wrong dispositions: pride, no confidence, etc… God bless you.

This makes a great deal of sense to me. The big challenge is to become so disposed in both faith and humility.

One of my favorites is gratefulness. Every breath is a gift for which I’m grateful to the Lord, and on those breaths I’m not thinking about, it’s still the case.

MS

 

[ready]

This makes a great deal of sense to me. The big challenge is to become so disposed in both faith and humility.

One of my favorites is gratefulness. Every breath is a gift for which I’m grateful to the Lord, and on those breaths I’m not thinking about, it’s still the case.

MS

Gratitude to God is sooo very important! May we both be very grateful to Him, always. The more grateful we are to God the more blessed we will be. God bless you!