Do pro-lifers have an obligation to care for pregnant women and the lives of those after they born?

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Temporary, not permanent solutions.
Right. The only permanent solution is for them to get skills and a full time job. That’s not something you can just give someone - it develops over time, and while it is developing, they receive temporary help. Nobody should receive charity for their entire life, though, should they? Charity is a stepping stone towards independence.
Ok, so where did I say that unmarried women are more likely to give birth to children with poor potential?
You keep reiterating that if we save their children from abortion (single young women who have become pregnant are the ones who typically have abortions) that these children will most likely not do very well, and will drag society down.
 
This is a futile discussion. The poster Black_Rose has some kind of actuarial equation that he/she keeps returning to. It is not reality, it is theory, and a very removed theory at that.

How can you ever decide what a human life will be worth? It is not up to us, it is up to God! Every life is worth the exact same in value, doesn’t matter whether the person is handicapped, super-intelligent, just ordinary (like most of us) or whatever. The rich have their share of problems, they also have handicapped kids, it’s just easier for them to provide for their needs.

Of all the discussions I have ever had about abortion, I think this one has been the most horrifying, because of the intellectual remove that puts human life into some category determined by another human already born.

:eek:
 
This is a futile discussion. The poster Black_Rose has some kind of actuarial equation that he/she keeps returning to. It is not reality, it is theory, and a very removed theory at that.

How can you ever decide what a human life will be worth? It is not up to us, it is up to God! Every life is worth the exact same in value, doesn’t matter whether the person is handicapped, super-intelligent, just ordinary (like most of us) or whatever. The rich have their share of problems, they also have handicapped kids, it’s just easier for them to provide for their needs.

Of all the discussions I have ever had about abortion, I think this one has been the most horrifying, because of the intellectual remove that puts human life into some category determined by another human already born.

:eek:
Agreed. In fact I have not seen a single argument advanced supporting abortion in this thread that would not equally apply to children up to at least the age of six.
 
Children who are first-borns after the age of thirty five are far, far more likely to have Downs’ Syndrome and other extremely serious disabilities.

You were so worried about unmarried young women giving birth to handicapped children - they are a lot less likely to do so, than women over the age of thirty five who are pregnant for the first time.
Public conversation tends to be about probabilities, and remain there. It is true that probabilities for Trisomy 21 are directly proportional to age, but live births of children in general are inversely proportional to age. There are actually numerically more Down’s Syndrome children in the population that have been born to very young women, than there are DS kids that have been born to those on the other end of the reproductive curve. This website makes indirect reference to this:
Your age alone will not determine your down’s syndrome risk. A US government agency goes so far as to say that trying to use age alone to determine Down’s syndrome risk would actually miss 75% of the cases. Newer research quoted by the National Association for Down Syndrome points out that 80% of babies born with Down Syndrome are born to women under 35 years of age.
The fact is, younger women are more likely to become pregnant. The National Institutes of Health reveals that women over 35 only account for 9% of total births. But, this same group accounts for 25 % of the total instances of Down Syndrome.
thespeciallife.com/down-syndrome-facts.html
 
Wealth does ensure a material secure life, despite enabling one to live a hedonistic, morally decadent one.

The probability distribution of outcomes of an individual life saved through pro-life activism or anti-abortion policies has large variance. For example, on the positive tail end of this distribution, it is possible that an infant saved by pro-life activism today would throw a complete game shutout in the first game of the 2035 World Series and have a multimillion dollar contract. A more probable outcome on the negative side would be that the infant would not have the intellectual capacity to complete secondary education and as a consequence that person would be unable to acquire the human capital that is valued in the job market. That person would need the perpetual assistance of benefactors, such as private charities, the state, or some combination of the two, beyond the services provide by a crisis pregnancy center in order to provide the material and financial resources to make ends meet. He/she would not seem to have any prospects for a decent life since he/she would likely be mired in poverty trapped in a world of despair and despondency while suffering the humiliating indignity of receiving private charity for subsistence.

Pro-life activists typically emphasize the positive outcomes of the potential of the lives that would be saved as a consequence of their pro-life activism while ignoring the negative outcomes. Besides limited support for mothers after their baby is born, they do not seem to have any concern for mitigating any negative outcomes that would inevitably occur throughout the lives of the infants as they mature.
With all due respect, this is poppycock. The “positive outcome”, as you so flippantly put it, of not aborting a pregnancy is the simple fact that the child is not killed! For goodness sake – life and a chance at doing good and participating in humanity is worth the risk of poverty and suffering. Christ Himself became human, lived in poverty, and suffered; can it really be all that bad?

Have we sunk so low that the lives of the most helpless among us are subject to statistical value judgments?

Life. LIFE, my friend.

Peace,
Dante
 
With all due respect, this is poppycock. The “positive outcome”, as you so flippantly put it, of not aborting a pregnancy is the simple fact that the child is not killed! For goodness sake – life and a chance at doing good and participating in humanity is worth the risk of poverty and suffering. Christ Himself became human, lived in poverty, and suffered; can it really be all that bad?

Have we sunk so low that the lives of the most helpless among us are subject to statistical value judgments?

Life. LIFE, my friend.

Peace,
Dante
Well, Billy Beane did exactly that during his tenure as the general manager of the Oakland Athletics; so do mortgage brokers as I discussed in post 74.

I will take the liberty of parsing my posts in this thread and consolidate them into this post:

I simply do not think that it is a great victory when the pro-life movement saves a few lives from the decision of a pregnant mother to terminate her pregnancy. To me, there is no triumph in that victory because after that, it would mean that the newborn has to face the prospects of life. In many cases, this would mean the newborn would be raised in material deprivation and face further adversity. In some cases, a few of these newborns would overcome that situation through luck, either through a combination of inheriting a socially valuable genotype that endows them with profound intellectual or athletic talent and other coincidences such as wining the lottery. But it is obvious that not all newborns would be that lucky, and the prospects for many is a grim and brutal life with few meliorative factors.

This is not a moral prescription requiring that a fetus should be aborted ; I merely said that saving the life of a fetus should not be considered a triumphant moral victory. Saving the life of a fetus, to me, does not seem to be an indicator of progress, since there would be potential difficulties that the child would encounter as it matures.

Pro-life activists typically emphasize the positive outcomes of the potential of the lives that would be saved as a consequence of their pro-life activism while ignoring the negative outcomes. Besides limited support for mothers after their baby is born, they do not seem to have any concern for mitigating any negative outcomes that would inevitably occur throughout the lives of the infants as they mature. As one could see, the struggle does not end when the fetus is carried to term, resulting in a successful pregnancy, but it is merely the beginning.

The probability distribution of outcomes of an individual life saved through pro-life activism or anti-abortion policies has large variance. For example, on the positive tail end of this distribution, it is possible that an infant saved by pro-life activism today would throw a complete game shutout in the first game of the 2035 World Series and have a multimillion dollar contract. A more probable outcome on the negative side would be that the infant would not have the intellectual capacity to complete secondary education and as a consequence that person would be unable to acquire the human capital that is valued in the job market. That person would need the perpetual assistance of benefactors, such as private charities, the state, or some combination of the two, beyond the services provide by a crisis pregnancy center in order to provide the material and financial resources to make ends meet. He/she would not seem to have any prospects for a decent life since he/she would likely be mired in poverty trapped in a world of despair and despondency while suffering the humiliating indignity of receiving private charity for subsistence.

I most certainly do not recommend using the financial statements of pregnant women or their IQs to render a judgment whether her fetus should be carried to term or aborted. I only mentioned the heritability of intelligence not to recommend eugenic policies, but to point out that the outcomes of the infants saved from abortion are not entirely within the volition of the children themselves or their parents. Those who are the unlucky recipients of a disadvantageous genetic endowment would be unable to surmount adversity simply because they lack the capacity regardless of the opportunities presented to them or the amount of determination they possess.

The first part of a potential remedy is to acknowledge that it is inevitable that some would suffer difficult conditions and adversity that would prevent them from living dignified lives. Once the problem has been acknowledge, measures and policies can be enacted to attenuate and reduce the negative variance of the possible outcomes. The nature of this suggestion is inherently egalitarian because reducing the negative variance of outcomes would mean reducing overall variance, ceteris paribus, hence a more equal distribution of outcomes. If the means for accomplishing this would including reducing the positive variance through redistribution, then it would further reduce the variance in outcomes. The pro-life movement does not take this into consideration at all.
 
With all due respect, this is poppycock. The “positive outcome”, as you so flippantly put it, of not aborting a pregnancy is the simple fact that the child is not killed! For goodness sake – life and a chance at doing good and participating in humanity is worth the risk of poverty and suffering. Christ Himself became human, lived in poverty, and suffered; can it really be all that bad?

Have we sunk so low that the lives of the most helpless among us are subject to statistical value judgments?

Life. LIFE, my friend.

Peace,
Dante
I have never seen such a calculated and removed judgment from another human being. In this person’s world, there is no inherent value to life unless there is some form of guarantee that there will be a “positive outcome,” whatever that term really means. I’m sure glad I don’t live n that world.

This forum is amazing to me. Very different from what I expected.
 
I have never seen such a calculated and removed judgment from another human being. In this person’s world, there is no inherent value to life unless there is some form of guarantee that there will be a “positive outcome,” whatever that term really means. I’m sure glad I don’t live n that world.

This forum is amazing to me. Very different from what I expected.
Again, I did not recommend or encourage abortion; my position on it argues for apathy and a lack of concern whether a fetus is aborted or not. Instead of pro-life activism, I stress improving the conditions the unfortunate after they are born.

Don’t actuaries, Billy Beane, and mortgage brokers rely on “calculated and removed judgments”?
 
Again, I did not recommend or encourage abortion; my position on it argues for apathy and a lack of concern whether a fetus is aborted or not. Instead of pro-life activism, I stress improving the conditions the unfortunate after they are born.

Don’t actuaries, Billy Beane, and mortgage brokers rely on “calculated and removed judgments”?
I do not know who Billy Beane is, and I do not like the concept of placing a value on a human life. Jesus did not calculate how much life the blind man had in him before healing him, or the woman who touched his cloak. All were equal in his sight.

“Unfortunate.” Again you are discussing poverty as a defining criteria and one that does not change…Do you understand that Margaret Sanger, the founder of Planned Parenthood, believed that poor women should not reproduce? She also started modern birth control. It was the black Americans after slavery that Margaret particularly feared and hated, and her code words were “poor,” “undesirable,” “feeble-minded,” “uneducated,” but everyone knew that she meant ex-slaves. Her operation continues today, with the clinics located in ghetto and poor areas and serving that population. Black women make up only 13% of the population yet they have 37% of the abortions. Why is that? It is because they are targeted by this organization. The founder’s vision still runs through the company.

Life has its own value. Every single life on the planet has been created by God, for a purpose. You and I are so far away in viewpoints that it is futile to continue. You keep stating your point over and over and so do I, and we’re getting nowhere.

I wish you God’s peace and His understanding.
 
I simply do not think that it is a great victory when the pro-life movement saves a few lives from the decision of a pregnant mother to terminate her pregnancy. To me, there is no triumph in that victory because after that, it would mean that the newborn has to face the prospects of life.
As does everyone whose mother never thinks of abortion in the first place.
In many cases, this would mean the newborn would be raised in material deprivation and face further adversity.
As do children of mothers who have never thought of abortion.

What is the reason that you think that children whose mothers were thinking of abortion, but then change their minds based on pro-life action, are so much more likely than other children to be facing poverty and suffering and “great odds”? :confused:

You have already admitted that there is nothing especially different about these women than the general population - they are typically of normal intelligence and members of the middle class.
 
I do not know who Billy Beane is, and I do not like the concept of placing a value on a human life. Jesus did not calculate how much life the blind man had in him before healing him, or the woman who touched his cloak. All were equal in his sight.

“Unfortunate.” Again you are discussing poverty as a defining criteria and one that does not change…Do you understand that Margaret Sanger, the founder of Planned Parenthood, believed that poor women should not reproduce? She also started modern birth control. It was the black Americans after slavery that Margaret particularly feared and hated, and her code words were “poor,” “undesirable,” “feeble-minded,” “uneducated,” but everyone knew that she meant ex-slaves. Her operation continues today, with the clinics located in ghetto and poor areas and serving that population. Black women make up only 13% of the population yet they have 37% of the abortions. Why is that? It is because they are targeted by this organization. The founder’s vision still runs through the company.

Life has its own value. Every single life on the planet has been created by God, for a purpose. You and I are so far away in viewpoints that it is futile to continue. You keep stating your point over and over and so do I, and we’re getting nowhere.

I wish you God’s peace and His understanding.
Perhaps Jesus has an unlimited capacity to heal people so the opportunity cost of healing anyone is zero; he did not have to ration his healing powers because he is not bound my material constraints. The people Jesus healed where not competing against each other for a finite resource.

Doesn’t the labor market already put a value on human life?
 
Perhaps Jesus has an unlimited capacity to heal people so the opportunity cost of healing anyone is zero; he did not have to ration his healing powers because he is not bound my material constraints. The people Jesus healed where not competing against each other for a finite resource.

Doesn’t the labor market already put a value on human life?
No; it only puts a value on human work and human productivity. Do not mistake your work, or your rate of productivity, for your life. Your life is always valuable, no matter what. Your work may or may not be, depending on market conditions. And you can always change your work.
 
And a human being who will never be able to work in a form we usually recognize, such as a child with handicaps, still has the same value as Donald Trump or Bill Gates. A baby in China has the same value as a baby from Hollywood. God created us all, and we all have the same value in God’s economy.

Even if a person never produces material value (what about Mother Theresa? what about priests and nuns who take vows of poverty?), their live is the same value to God as anyone else. We are all equal that way. Even a criminal who repents has the same “score” as the rest of us who have stayed unmarked by crime (see the Prodigal Son parable).
 
Perhaps Jesus has an unlimited capacity to heal people so the opportunity cost of healing anyone is zero; he did not have to ration his healing powers because he is not bound my material constraints. The people Jesus healed where not competing against each other for a finite resource.
Doesn’t the labor market already put a value on human life?
I can only hope that someday your life will not be evaluated on the basis of your “usefulness” or wether or not it will be cost-effective to maintain it. I pray that someone will not regard you with a cold eye and decide to save you from adversity, or judge that yours is a “life not worth living.” Our German friends fell into that mode of thinking in the name of “compassion” some years back if you recall. “Das leben nicht lebenswert.” “The life not worth living.” Do you remember where it took them? From “compassion” to genocide in short, gradual steps. Please think this through and see where your line of thinking will lead you.
 
The main reason why I am not enthusiastic about pro-life activism because while it may combat the “evil” of abortion, it enables the evil of poverty. Many pro-lifers do not have concern with combating poverty or relieving suffering at all.

If one is willing to save the life of the child from abortion, are they willing to support government programs protect them from the effects of poverty as they mature?

As one can see, I am more interested in preventing suffering than protecting the sanctity of life, primarily because I operate from a utilitarian framework where priority is placed on relieving suffering and the welfare of others.
 
The main reason why I am not enthusiastic about pro-life activism because while it may combat the “evil” of abortion, it enables the evil of poverty. **Many pro-lifers do not have concern with combating poverty or relieving suffering at all.
**
If one is willing to save the life of the child from abortion, are they willing to support government programs protect them from the effects of poverty as they mature?

As one can see, I am more interested in preventing suffering than protecting the sanctity of life, primarily because I operate from a utilitarian framework where priority is placed on relieving suffering and the welfare of others.
Very, very wrong. You have made a huge assumption here. People who are pro-life are also pro-adoption, very concerned with social issues, give to their churches and other charity organizations, and do service to help as much as they can. You believe that pro-lifers say they value life, yet we walk away from the abortion clinic and wash our hands from then on? You must not know anyone who is pro-life!!!

You say, the “evil of poverty.” Yet, priests and nuns and monks take a vow of poverty - are they evil? Is it evil to live in a simple way, not consuming very much? There are a lot of people in the world who are voluntarily in poverty, are they evil? What is poverty, how much stuff or money does one need not to be poor, anyway? That has changed many times just in my lifetime. Now, many people who are on welfare in this country drive new cars, have cell phones and other luxuries, and eat quite well, all while producing nothing of value for the society they live in.

As far as the solution to “poverty,” you support government programs, which means that the government must take resources from someone else in order to raise another person’s standard of living. Many of us support the “give a man a fish” model of helping. Do you know that saying? “Give a man a fish, and he has food for one day. Teach a man to fish, and he has food for a lifetime.” Government programs give people a fish at a time, they don’t teach the person to fish or encourage him or her to learn anything but how to receive that fish.

Preventing suffering - I’m not sure what theological basis that has. I would say it’s almost Buddhist but even Buddhists acknowledge that there IS suffering in the world and they try not to add to it. Christ didn’t come to relieve suffering, according to him, he came to increase it! So what theology is this utilitarian outlook based upon? Utopia here on earth? That we can all be equal and happy and content?

Keep posting, I’m beginning to get the picture.
 
The main reason why I am not enthusiastic about pro-life activism because while it may combat the “evil” of abortion, it enables the evil of poverty. Many pro-lifers do not have concern with combating poverty or relieving suffering at all. [/nonsense]
If one is willing to save the life of the child from abortion, are they willing to support government programs protect them from the effects of poverty as they mature?
 
The main reason why I am not enthusiastic about pro-life activism because while it may combat the “evil” of abortion, it enables the evil of poverty.
And again - please explain the correlation.

Who are you imagining is having abortions, and how does them keeping their baby or giving it up for adoption cause them to become poorer than they were before? :confused:
 
And again - please explain the correlation.

Who are you imagining is having abortions, and how does them keeping their baby or giving it up for adoption cause them to become poorer than they were before? :confused:
You have to admit it is a rather novel argument! The right to life is directly related to the amount of money spent on welfare.???
 
Very, very wrong. You have made a huge assumption here. People who are pro-life are also pro-adoption, very concerned with social issues, give to their churches and other charity organizations, and do service to help as much as they can. You believe that pro-lifers say they value life, yet we walk away from the abortion clinic and wash our hands from then on? You must not know anyone who is pro-life!!!

You say, the “evil of poverty.” Yet, priests and nuns and monks take a vow of poverty - are they evil? Is it evil to live in a simple way, not consuming very much? There are a lot of people in the world who are voluntarily in poverty, are they evil? What is poverty, how much stuff or money does one need not to be poor, anyway? That has changed many times just in my lifetime. Now, many people who are on welfare in this country drive new cars, have cell phones and other luxuries, and eat quite well, all while producing nothing of value for the society they live in.
I guess there are different frequencies in which the word poverty resonates within us:
In a bountiful world, poverty is seldom caused by someone else’s having more
money than others. This is particularly true in a society in which both greed
and envy are constrained by moral precepts. One does not have to be the world’s
richest man in order to avoid feeling poor. Poverty is the result of
underdevelopment in relation to the production and consumption norms in a
particular socio-economic order. It is only when some singular segment of
society fails extensively to receive sufficient economic opportunity, or
sufficient value for its labor to maintain its fair share of consumption, as
normatively prescribed in the socio-economic order, that poverty is born.
Social cohesion will be threatened when poverty is perceived as the result of
institutionalized mal-distribution of wealth, reflecting unfairness in the
sharing of the fruits of co-operative endeavor among different socio-economic
groups.
Poverty, however, cannot be defined by absolute income levels alone, because
poverty is actually a social problem with an economic dimension. Only because
it is most conveniently recognizable in a money-based economy by its financial
aspect that poverty is often mistaken as a simple matter of income deficiency.
Poverty is in reality a phenomenon of social despair. The unemployed, the
unemployable, the underemployed and the working poor in developed countries have
higher absolute incomes than the middle class in other less developed countries,
whose members nevertheless do not consider themselves poor because they have not
lost hope in themselves or self-respect for their lot.
archives.econ.utah.edu/archives/a-list/2001/msg01580.htm

In this sense, the voluntary “poverty” of priests where they choose to live lives of physical austerity is not pathological since it is not a form of “social despair” nor have they lost their self-respect.

I posted this as a concrete example of one that suffers poverty:
A more probable outcome on the negative side would be that the infant would not have the intellectual capacity to complete secondary education and as a consequence that person would be unable to acquire the human capital that is valued in the job market. That person would need the perpetual assistance of benefactors, such as private charities, the state, or some combination of the two, beyond the services provide by a crisis pregnancy center in order to provide the material and financial resources to make ends meet. He/she would not seem to have any prospects for a decent life since he/she would likely be mired in poverty trapped in a world of despair and despondency while suffering the humiliating indignity of receiving private charity for subsistence.
In my description, I did not mention relative deprivation, but person does indeed suffer it.

Regarding, those in poverty driving new cars, what percentage of them actually do that. And no, I am not going to call a cell phone a “luxury”.
 
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